Quebec student protests...

[silverpig]

p.s., If these spoiled brats what to protest a legitimate issue, why aren't they protesting the death of freedom of speech in Canada?

Why are they spoiled brats?

They are (even though other places have it worse... like LA).

 

[a777pilot]

Why are they spoiled brats?

They are (even though other places have it worse... like LA).

Why?

Because instead of getting to work they want things, everything, just given to them, because it is their due.

Idiots.

 

[silverpig]

Why?

Because instead of getting to work they want things, everything, just given to them, because it is their due.

Idiots.

Says who? What if they are fully willing to pay higher taxes later on in life to make sure it is sustainable?

 

[Iron Woode]

Says who? What if they are fully willing to pay higher taxes later on in life to make sure it is sustainable?

they do.

I watched an interview in which one of the protestors said they are entitled to free tuition.

 

[actuarial]

they do.

I watched an interview in which one of the protestors said they are entitled to free tuition.

I think the protesters have gone too far, but I think you're completely missing silverpig's point.

Let's say the students win, and tuition becomes free and taxes are raised to pay for it. The economic impact of that change to them is that they get free tuition for a couple years (but not their full education as they are already students), and then pay the increased taxes for their entire working lives. The prior generations only pay the increased taxes for part of their working life (*more on this later). Future generations will pay the increased taxes, but will also get the benefit of entirely subsidized university education.

Other than recent graduates, the protesters suffer the most economically if the change goes through.

*Back to prior generations. For one, they had much lower university tuition fees. Second, it was only recently that so many jobs required a university degree. Many current taxpayers had their entire educations subsidized, because many jobs only required a high school education.

Note I'm not a student, have already graduated, and am in favor of subsidized university education.

 

[EagleKeeper]

If that were true why did they go to college? They felt the responsibility to further their education so that, in and of itself, proves your theory is ridiculous to put it mildly.

they are not protesting for their grandkids.

they are protesting because they do not want to pay their share for their education

 

[silverpig]

they do.

I watched an interview in which one of the protestors said they are entitled to free tuition.

If they're willing to pay for it with higher taxes, then what's the big deal?

I'm entitled to partially subsidized education, police protection, a court system, national defense etc. because I pay taxes to fund those things. I should also be entitled to fully subsidized education if I pay taxes for that too.

Pretty much everyone in the country takes more from society in their early lives than they give back. And pretty much everyone in the country gives back more to society in their working years than they use themselves. This is how our country works.

 

[silverpig]

they are not protesting for their grandkids.

they are protesting because they do not want to pay their share for their education

What do you mean "their share"? You pay your share long after you graduate. They want to pay later via taxes rather than pay now via tuition.

 

[Slew Foot]

This is what happens when all the Canadian teams are out of the Stanley Cup finals.

 

[Michael]

I grew up and went to university in Quebec and enjoyed very cheap tuition. I certainly never paid for it myself as I moved away in my mid-20's.

I theory, maybe my parents paid for it in their taxes, but I am the one that went to school and benefited and I did not pay for it.

I have no problem with Quebec keeping their tuition the cheapest in Canada, but no tuition raises or free eduction is too much. That is not Canadian or North American culture. The proposed increases are very reasonable and phased in over time.

Michael

 

[Pr0d1gy]

Because a large number of college degrees (see liberal arts) are about putting off responsibility until the future.

That is ridiculous. So what you are saying is that liberal arts have no value in society to you, but we all know you are an uncultured idiot so it really doesn't matter what you say. People go to college to build a bridge to their careers, not to put off work.

People like you and this 777 idiot believe that everyone but you and people like you just want to sit around and drain your coffers by not working and signing up for assistance, when in fact you have all day long to sit here and post in this forum. I have to believe you're both just trolls looking for attention and I feel sympathy for both of you.

But you're still fucking morons.

 

[silverpig]

I grew up and went to university in Quebec and enjoyed very cheap tuition. I certainly never paid for it myself as I moved away in my mid-20's.

I theory, maybe my parents paid for it in their taxes, but I am the one that went to school and benefited and I did not pay for it.

I have no problem with Quebec keeping their tuition the cheapest in Canada, but no tuition raises or free eduction is too much. That is not Canadian or North American culture. The proposed increases are very reasonable and phased in over time.

Michael

"Culture" and "tradition" are stupid reasons to not do something IMO. In some cultures, 12 year old girls are married off to 40 year old men. It's tradition.

Do something because it makes logical sense to do it, not because it's been done that way before.

 

[CPA]

While we're at it, let's make Masters degrees free. Oh, and throw in Doctorates. And while we're at it, let's provide internships for all college students regardless of degree, provided by the government. Where does it stop?

 

[CPA]

That is ridiculous. So what you are saying is that liberal arts have no value in society to you, but we all know you are an uncultured idiot so it really doesn't matter what you say. People go to college to build a bridge to their careers, not to put off work.

People like you and this 777 idiot believe that everyone but you and people like you just want to sit around and drain your coffers by not working and signing up for assistance, when in fact you have all day long to sit here and post in this forum. I have to believe you're both just trolls looking for attention and I feel sympathy for both of you.

But you're still fucking morons.

It's not that they don't have value, it's that the marketplace is flooded with people with liberal arts degrees. The degree-holders don't have value, or have very little value.

 

[silverpig]

While we're at it, let's make Masters degrees free. Oh, and throw in Doctorates. And while we're at it, let's provide internships for all college students regardless of degree, provided by the government. Where does it stop?

A lot of the best Ph.D programs are in fact free. And the students get paid. And they don't have to TA.

And you forget that there are countries out there who do this, and they do it quite well.

Sorry, right, it's obviously better to ensure fewer people get higher education, and to further ensure that those that do are increasingly saddled with even more debt. Hurray for a more indebted, less skilled, less educated populace!

 

[Michael]

What makes logical sense is that the students who get the benefit pay for it. Hence the increases make sense. They are balanced by a society goal to make university education more affordable (still very inexpensive) while putting a modest increase onto the students.

Michael

 

[silverpig]

What makes logical sense is that the students who get the benefit pay for it. Hence the increases make sense. They are balanced by a society goal to make university education more affordable (still very inexpensive) while putting a modest increase onto the students.

Michael

But they will pay for it... through higher taxes later in life. I still don't see the problem.

If you get a liberal arts degree and end up as a manager at McD's, you won't have gotten much benefit, and your income tax will not be very high. Low benefit, low cost.

If you get an engineering degree, start off at $60k out of school and end up in management making $140k+, you will benefit a lot from your education and you will be paying a lot of tax for that benefit.

 

[ShawnD1]

If you get a liberal arts degree and end up as a manager at McD's, you won't have gotten much benefit, and your income tax will not be very high. Low benefit, low cost.

If you get an engineering degree, start off at $60k out of school and end up in management making $140k+, you will benefit a lot from your education and you will be paying a lot of tax for that benefit.

Low cost? Actual cost of university is in the ballpark of $30,000 per year.That x4 = $120,000 for a degree that is useless. The whole province will go bankrupt when they declare that education is free then 90% of people have a degree in "women's studies" or "underwater basketweaving and how it relates to african counter-culture of November 1982"
Keep in mind at least 90% of degrees are useless. English? Useless. History? Useless. Classics? Useless. All fine arts? Useless.
It would be great if they taught English writing, but a degree in English actually means you interpret books nobody in the world voluntarily reads. God help you if your employer asks you to write a technical report. You'll get a much better technical report out of someone who who majored in chemistry as opposed to English.

You would think twice about your Underwater Basketweaving degree if it was going to cost $20,000 out of pocket or more.
We see the exact same bullshit when our medical system has no user fees. Example: childhood friend was from a family of 6 (4 kid) and they would run to the doctor for stitches for any cut at all. Even if there's no blood, they would go for stitches. Charging a simple $20 fee would put an immediate stop to that.

 

[sandorski]

Free Post Secondary education I have no problem with, but given that the Government of Quebec is trying to eliminate a Budget Deficit, it just seems poorly timed to do this now.

 

[BoberFett]

What do you mean "their share"? You pay your share long after you graduate. They want to pay later via taxes rather than pay now via tuition.

No, if you want to pay later you take out a loan. What these students want is for other people (people who don't go to college) to pay for part of their education.

 

[ShawnD1]

No, if you want to pay later you take out a loan. What these students want is for other people (people who don't go to college) to pay for part of their education.

Doesn't work that way in Canada. Loans are virtually impossible to get. They looked at my gf's parents and said their income was too high, so she couldn't get a student loan.

 

[silverpig]

Low cost? Actual cost of university is in the ballpark of $30,000 per year.That x4 = $120,000 for a degree that is useless. The whole province will go bankrupt when they declare that education is free then 90% of people have a degree in "women's studies" or "underwater basketweaving and how it relates to african counter-culture of November 1982"
Keep in mind at least 90% of degrees are useless. English? Useless. History? Useless. Classics? Useless. All fine arts? Useless.
It would be great if they taught English writing, but a degree in English actually means you interpret books nobody in the world voluntarily reads. God help you if your employer asks you to write a technical report. You'll get a much better technical report out of someone who who majored in chemistry as opposed to English.

You would think twice about your Underwater Basketweaving degree if it was going to cost $20,000 out of pocket or more.
We see the exact same bullshit when our medical system has no user fees. Example: childhood friend was from a family of 6 (4 kid) and they would run to the doctor for stitches for any cut at all. Even if there's no blood, they would go for stitches. Charging a simple $20 fee would put an immediate stop to that.

We were talking cost and benefit to the user.

You're also making ridiculous arguments. 90% of the population will take a liberal arts degree? Seriously?

My uncle got a degree in english and now runs his own business - a communications firm. He employs a few people and does work for companies and the government.

If you want a technical report you get someone who knows english and chemistry. Try getting a chem major to draft an HR communications letter announcing job cuts, or a media release.

I agree that there are a lot of low-value graduates coming out of schools these days, and the point isn't to let everyone graduate with anything. I'm not saying we should expand the ancient Brazilian horticulture course to 2000 students a year because there is demand for it when the price is 0. Right-size the classes and programs and then make them free. The most dedicated students take the right courses.

If you need 50 math teachers and 5 history teachers, make the university offer 50 slots for math majors and 5 for history majors, make the tuition 0, then pick the best 50/5 students for each track.

Right now they fill 100 slots with whoever wants in, and charge $10k for it. You get 50 history majors and 5 math majors applying and paying a ton of money. The history teachers go on to work at random jobs, the math teachers get jobs but the schools are short of qualified math teachers.

Which scenario makes more sense to you? If you were to offer 50 math slots and charge $10k, you wouldn't get 50 math majors applying. Also, there is no sense in accepting 50 history teachers if you know that only 10% of them will get jobs.

 

[silverpig]

No, if you want to pay later you take out a loan. What these students want is for other people (people who don't go to college) to pay for part of their education.

And you end up with banks profiting, or the government losing money on the loan in that scenario.

If it's free and people pay via higher taxes, then society benefits.

I'm done school, have student loans, and earn an income that sees me pay more tax than most people. I'm all for higher taxes for free post-secondary education if it is done right.

 

[BoberFett]

Doesn't work that way in Canada. Loans are virtually impossible to get. They looked at my gf's parents and said their income was too high, so she couldn't get a student loan.

That's simply a policy that doesn't make sense, either there or in the US. If you're getting a loan, why should income have anything to do with it?

When you buy a car, do they tell you to pay cash because you make too much money? When you buy a home, do you have to pay cash if you make more than poverty wages?

It's a loan. You pay interest. Who cares how much money you make? The student loan system is ridiculous. But that's what you get when you have a government backed loan system. Misallocation of capital and at the wrong price and with the wrong requirements.

 

[BoberFett]

And you end up with banks profiting, or the government losing money on the loan in that scenario.

If it's free and people pay via higher taxes, then society benefits.

I'm done school, have student loans, and earn an income that sees me pay more tax than most people. I'm all for higher taxes for free post-secondary education if it is done right.

How is losing money on a loan any different than simply paying for free education to begin with?

And how do these magical government agencies determine what the demand for any given field will be in 5 to 10 years? Planned economies fail, planned education would be no different.