Quebec student protests...

[mmntech]

Legitimate grievance or #firstworldproblems?

Students in Quebec, mainly Montreal, have been staging a "strike" for the past 100 days in protest of a tuition fee increase. The resulting boycott has shut down universities, preventing students and teachers from attending classes. The strikers seem to be approximately 1/3 of the student body.

Recent riots have paralyzed the city. The Quebec government has recently passed a law that allows police to arrest protesters who cover their faces with masks. Over the past few weeks, protests have become increasingly violent. Many blame the far left "Black Bloc" group for the violence. However, student unions have refused to outright condemn violent tactics.

Here's some facts about the protest:
-The Quebec government wants to raise tuition rates by $1,625 over a five year period. This will be a $325 per year increase added to tuition each year.
-Quebec students currently pay on average $2159 per year in tuition. There is little variability between programs. This is nearly 1/3 of what students in neighbouring Ontario pay, $6640. US and Mexican average tuition is roughly the same as Ontario's. This make's Quebec's the cheapest in North America. Only Newfoundland is comparable, coming in at second cheapest.
-Even after the $1625 increase, Quebec's rates will be half the North American average.
-Protesters are demanding the increase be dropped and an eventual move towards 100% government subsidized post-secondary education.
-Quebec argues that it needs the increase to avoid cutting programs. The province currently is fighting a record high debt of $183 billion.
-The protest is being led by student union CLASSE. This union does not practice violent protest but has refused to denounce others from doing so.
-The protesters appear (to me) to be mostly if not all white, middle class kids. Roughly 30% of visible minorities in Quebec have a degree. However, they are rarely seen in photos of the protests.
-The Quebec government has just passed a law banning masked protest.
-Many are denouncing police tactics as overly violent.
-Protesters have also been accused of intimidation tactics in preventing "scab" students from attending class.
-The protesters are being funded by public sector unions.

There's tons more information here.
http://www.cbc.ca/montreal/features/studentprotests/

Graphic on tuition costs in Canada.
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/0...-tags-match-up-to-the-rest-of-canada-graphic/

Given the demographics of the protest, I'm wondering if we're seeing an explosion from the entitled generation? Is $3700 per year too much for education? Do they have a legitimate grievance, or is this just spoiled white kids venting because they're not getting their way?

 

[zsdersw]

Do they have a legitimate grievance, or is this just spoiled white kids venting because they're not getting their way?

This... 100%.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

This... 100%.

Really? You don't think it could have anything to do with the cost of everything rising while pay is decreasing and the world economy is trying to crawl out of the murk? These kids go to college, take econ classes and then find out that supply and demand don't actually determine markets but a bunch of gamblers in New York and their cronies running everything do.

This reminds me more of the Vietnam protests in the 60's and 70's at colleges everywhere in America, only this time they are protesting money since the war that is raging is the war on the middle and lower classes around the world. Governments have already toppled in other countries and this is not over yet. People are tired of getting bent over by the haves and with the flow of free thought information coming out of America the entire world is seeing that we should all want more.

It is not young people feeling entitled causing all of this, it is them wanting their grandkids to feel entitled that is causing it.

 

[ElFenix]

-Quebec students currently pay on average $2159 per year in tuition. There is little variability between programs.

#firstworldproblems

 

[EagleKeeper]

There are three choices.

• Increase the tuition fee - directly impacts only those that are using the service
• Decrease services - directly impacts only those that are needing the service
• Increase taxes to increase the subsidized tuition - affects all and reduces the perceived value of the educations - also is borrowed money

If the costs were inline with the rest of Canada, they could complain.
Otherwise it is somebody that wants something for nothing.

 

[EagleKeeper]

<snip>
It is not young people feeling entitled causing all of this, it is them wanting their grandkids to feel entitled that is causing it.

they do not have any concerns about grandkids.

They are only concerned about getting what they can without having to accept responsibility.

 

[sactoking]

The current students should be supporting the increases.

As current students they have made some progress toward graduation. That means that any increase, even an immediate increase, will affect them proportionally less than future students. That means that it will be comparatively easier for them to afford their degrees versus future students. That means that there will be fewer future students earning degrees. That means that the overall supply of graduates will be lower. That means that those graduates who have degrees, a demographic the current students will have a much easier time affording to enter, will be able to demand higher pay in response to the decreased supply.

 

[Pr0d1gy]

they do not have any concerns about grandkids.

They are only concerned about getting what they can without having to accept responsibility.

If that were true why did they go to college? They felt the responsibility to further their education so that, in and of itself, proves your theory is ridiculous to put it mildly.

 

[nehalem256]

If that were true why did they go to college? They felt the responsibility to further their education so that, in and of itself, proves your theory is ridiculous to put it mildly.

Because a large number of college degrees (see liberal arts) are about putting off responsibility until the future.

 

[CPA]

Sounds like some Quebecois want to follow in the footsteps of their Mother France.

 

[Iron Woode]

the entitlement syndrome in Quebec is totally out of control.

Its time the police there took off the kid gloves and treat the protestors the way they deserve to be treated.

Time to bring out the water cannons and start bustin heads.

Unless, of course, Charest decides to go the Robert Bourassa route and ask the Prime Minister to invoke the War Measures Act to deal with the violent insurrection.

 

[silverpig]

I actually support the non-violent students. Plenty of very well-off countries have free post-secondary education, and they do it fine.

I would also support raising taxes to pay for the education. This is only a problem if the students want taxes raised now to pay for their education, and then lowered again when they enter the workforce.

If however, they are fine paying higher taxes later on in life, then more power to them.

Personally, I support free (or near-free) post-secondary (but with market guidance on what degrees are offered), and higher taxes. I say this as someone who is making an income that would be taxed disproportionately higher than average, and I am done school.

 

[yllus]

We do a hell of a lot of wealth transfer from the young to the old so it's hard for me to not feel that a goal of free/low tuition isn't fair in return.

 

[ShawnD1]

I actually support the non-violent students. Plenty of very well-off countries have free post-secondary education, and they do it fine.

Your reasoning for this could be a bit better. USA has shit hole jails and the country seems to be doing just fine, so does that mean we can run shit hole jails too?

An educated population is generally a good thing because those people eventually need to vote. Having 1% of the population educated isn't good enough; we end up with politicians who can't do basic math or they think nuclear bombs are magic. Stockwell Day turned out to be a creationist. That fucker was the official opposition at one point wasn't he? The country was that close to being run by someone who is completely insane.

That said, I don't think giving out free college will fix that. Most of the things people need to know is taught in high school and people simply choose to ignore it. I still have my math notes from grade 11 and they go over a lot of things about compounding interests and how to calculate mortgage payments. Somehow the rules changed and now you don't actually need to learn anything to get a diploma. At one point, a high school diploma was a real achievement.

 

[silverpig]

Your reasoning for this could be a bit better. USA has shit hole jails and the country seems to be doing just fine, so does that mean we can run shit hole jails too?

An educated population is generally a good thing because those people eventually need to vote. Having 1% of the population educated isn't good enough; we end up with politicians who can't do basic math or they think nuclear bombs are magic. Stockwell Day turned out to be a creationist. That fucker was the official opposition at one point wasn't he? The country was that close to being run by someone who is completely insane.

That said, I don't think giving out free college will fix that. Most of the things people need to know is taught in high school and people simply choose to ignore it. I still have my math notes from grade 11 and they go over a lot of things about compounding interests and how to calculate mortgage payments. Somehow the rules changed and now you don't actually need to learn anything to get a diploma. At one point, a high school diploma was a real achievement.

But crime in the USA is worse than here, so their jails aren't something to emulate. Education levels and the per capita GDP derived from the educated populace in the nordic countries are good things to emulate.

If you take the position that everyone should be able to do what they are best at, and that the country as a whole is best off when people are doing what they are best at, then you should work to reduce the barriers to achieving any career. Putting a financial barrier in prevents some people from doing what they would be most productive in doing, and kneecaps their spending post-degree by forcing them to spend money on interest and loans.

Also, post secondary doesn't necessarily mean a master's in engineering. It can be trade school or technical college. If people can, want, and need to upgrade their skills to be more productive, then we should do everything we can to ensure that they are able to.

The company I work for does very well and pays well. They pay for people to go to top schools for their MBAs (HBS, Wharton, Stanford, Kellogg etc). If you ask them why they do it, they say it's a no brainer, and that it's the single best thing they spend money on.

 

[Anarchist420]

We do a hell of a lot of wealth transfer from the young to the old so it's hard for me to not feel that a goal of free/low tuition isn't fair in return.

Then that just hurts everyone through higher taxes/more debt. Fairness is subjective and once enough people learn that, society will be better off.

 

[gotsmack]

Personally, I support free (or near-free) post-secondary (but with market guidance on what degrees are offered), and higher taxes. I say this as someone who is making an income that would be taxed disproportionately higher than average, and I am done school.

I agree, college should be free, but only for a certain number of spots in needed majors.

If the govt labor bureau determins we need a MINIMUM of a certain major every year, that number of slots in a major should be free to those that are smart enough to win them through some sort of exam and renewed every semester based on performance. The remaining demand will be filled through partially subsidized state school or private school educations.

I think that system would work best and provide best for the needs of the economy.

 

[MooseNSquirrel]

the entitlement syndrome in Quebec is totally out of control.

Its time the police there took off the kid gloves and treat the protestors the way they deserve to be treated.

Time to bring out the water cannons and start bustin heads.

Unless, of course, Charest decides to go the Robert Bourassa route and ask the Prime Minister to invoke the War Measures Act to deal with the violent insurrection.

Meh, go back to dealing with your disastrous Ontarian privitization plans.

 

[silverpig]

I agree, college should be free, but only for a certain number of spots in needed majors.

If the govt labor bureau determins we need a MINIMUM of a certain major every year, that number of slots in a major should be free to those that are smart enough to win them through some sort of exam and renewed every semester based on performance. The remaining demand will be filled through partially subsidized state school or private school educations.

I think that system would work best and provide best for the needs of the economy.

That would work fairly well yes, so long as the prediction was close. I guess you could always pull from other countries to fill in the gaps.

Teaching is one example where the schools mess it up badly. They don't train enough science teachers, and train way too many history teachers. As a result, they have bio teachers teaching physics, english teachers teaching bio, and history teachers serving coffee. Yet, there is no admission/tuition/incentive difference for a history major to go into a teaching program than there is for a physics teacher. If the market is glut with history teachers without work, teaching schools should stop training so many.

That being said, if there is a nursing shortage, make nursing school free. Or better yet, pay students to go. "In 4 years you'll have a job, you get a stipend while you study, and you get an internship in the summer to make money." You'll get some damn dedicated students applying that way.

 

[dainthomas]

I agree, college should be free, but only for a certain number of spots in needed majors.

If the govt labor bureau determins we need a MINIMUM of a certain major every year, that number of slots in a major should be free to those that are smart enough to win them through some sort of exam and renewed every semester based on performance. The remaining demand will be filled through partially subsidized state school or private school educations.

I think that system would work best and provide best for the needs of the economy.

I like this.

 

[ShawnD1]

That would work fairly well yes, so long as the prediction was close. I guess you could always pull from other countries to fill in the gaps.

Teaching is one example where the schools mess it up badly. They don't train enough science teachers, and train way too many history teachers. As a result, they have bio teachers teaching physics, english teachers teaching bio, and history teachers serving coffee. Yet, there is no admission/tuition/incentive difference for a history major to go into a teaching program than there is for a physics teacher. If the market is glut with history teachers without work, teaching schools should stop training so many.

I heard the opposite. If you have a degree in math, you can teach anywhere. It'll be a LOT harder to get a teaching job when your specialty is something useless like Russian Literature.

That being said, if there is a nursing shortage, make nursing school free. Or better yet, pay students to go. "In 4 years you'll have a job, you get a stipend while you study, and you get an internship in the summer to make money." You'll get some damn dedicated students applying that way.

Depends where you live. In Alberta, the nursing shortage is 100% caused by spending cuts. Schools create lots of nurses but they end up leaving the province because our brilliant leaders found that it was cheaper to import nurses from the Philippines. I really wish I were joking.
I know I feel safe in our hospitals when "fifty" and "fifteen" sound very similar and confusing the two could cause me to die.

 

[Iron Woode]

Meh, go back to dealing with your disastrous Ontarian privitization plans.

LOL

We have a disastrous Mcguinty to deal with. Not to mention a disastrous Green Energy policy to deal with.

Premier blames Alberta for manufacturing losses in Ontario that are really caused by his disastrous policies.

 

[silverpig]

I heard the opposite. If you have a degree in math, you can teach anywhere. It'll be a LOT harder to get a teaching job when your specialty is something useless like Russian Literature.

That's true, but the tuition for both teachers is the same, and there is no reason why a teaching school would turn one down over the other. The teaching school doesn't care if the Russian Lit major gets a job after, so long as they pay tuition while they are in school. The teaching school also doesn't care if there's a math teacher shortage, and won't discount their tuition to attract more math students.

Basically, they're not going to turn away $10k from a Russian Lit major and instead ask a math major to pay $2k for a teaching degree.

What I'm saying is that the school should turn away more Russian Lit majors and give out huge scholarships for math teachers. Right now that doesn't happen.

 

[a777pilot]

Do they have a legitimate grievance, or is this just spoiled white kids venting because they're not getting their way?

There ya go.


....'nuff said.

 

[a777pilot]

p.s., If these spoiled brats what to protest a legitimate issue, why aren't they protesting the death of freedom of speech in Canada?