quarantine nurse complains

[zinfamous]

I think my concern turned the page when a cop could rummage through Duncan's apartment and not come down sick. That and Duncan didn't transmit Ebola to ANYONE outside poorly equipped healthcare workers. His case did NOT go wild, did not cause an outbreak - and it was poorly handled.

If that screw up doesn't present an outbreak, I must recognize the difficulty of transmitting Ebola.

exactly. and it basically takes a pea-sized brain to think this one through.

How many days after he carried his vomiting and profusely-sweating pregnant neighbor to the various hospitals that turned her away, in the cabs, and back home again, where she died, before he got on that plane? Oh yeah, what about all those people on that plane? How long was the plane ride? How many days was he in Dallas before he moseyed into the hospital the first time? The 2nd?

It's pretty fucking obvious.

 

[Paratus]

I'm starting to think that massmedia is the literate (meaning--no copy pasting of the same talking points gleaned from other sources) version of Incorruptible.

dude appeared about the same time, or soon other the other vanished...the very same inch-thick stone cranium, impervious to external influence.

I was thinking the same thing. :hmm:

 

[Victorian Gray]

And the insanity continues

FORT WAYNE, Ind. (21Alive) -- Fort Wayne schools have started hanging signs up in reference to the threat of Ebola.

The signs ask for anyone who has traveled outside of the United States in the past 21 days to inform the office staff when they check-in. This comes days after the Allen County Health Department recommended that schools post such signage.

http://www.21alive.com/news/local/F...ns-Asking-About-Travel-History-280807332.html

 

[pcgeek11]

Oh.. oh.. I get it. Public health, like Obamacare?

Lets see... fat people consume too much... healthcare, aka public health. If we trump civil rights then we can dictate your food, your excisere. Your entire life style. Your decisions become our decisions, to ensure you require less healthcare, leaving more for other people. ($$$) Public health.

Careful what you do with that argument.

No. You are wrong. Fat people consuming too much is Private Health as his eating doesn't effect others.

If he is running around all over town while infected with ebola, that would be a Public health Issue.

 

[sportage]

Gawd! Republicans.... Go Figure.
They hate big intrusive government until they don't hate it.
I think that sums it up.

 

[Strk]

I think my concern turned the page when a cop could rummage through Duncan's apartment and not come down sick. That and Duncan didn't transmit Ebola to ANYONE outside poorly equipped healthcare workers. His case did NOT go wild, did not cause an outbreak - and it was poorly handled.

If that screw up doesn't present an outbreak, I must recognize the difficulty of transmitting Ebola.

That's been my point all along. Health care workers are around deadly pathogens all the time. And while some require even closer contact than Ebola, those workers are getting that level of contact and are fine. There was a failure at that Texas hospital, but as a whole, the system is fine. Health care providers would drop like flies if there was a mass inability to handle highly infectious diseases.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Gawd! Republicans.... Go Figure.
They hate big intrusive government until they don't hate it.
I think that sums it up.

But she's from Texas originally, land of RICK PERRY!
According to you he's causing Ebola to spread so she's no doubt his agent of evil.

You do realize you look foolish being critical of anyone after that.

 

[PliotronX]

Anyone who thinks that the proper response measures to Middle East/Crime/Healthcare/Honey bees dying are informed by partisan politics is a buffoon.

FTFExperiment

 

[DrPizza]

I think my concern turned the page when a cop could rummage through Duncan's apartment and not come down sick. That and Duncan didn't transmit Ebola to ANYONE outside poorly equipped healthcare workers. His case did NOT go wild, did not cause an outbreak - and it was poorly handled.

If that screw up doesn't present an outbreak, I must recognize the difficulty of transmitting Ebola.

Your honesty, and ability to change your position is commendable.
---
It's sad how many health care resources have been squandered because fear caused political pressure on various agencies to "do something more. More. MOOOORRRRRRE!"

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Your honesty, and ability to change your position is commendable.
---
It's sad how many health care resources have been squandered because fear caused political pressure on various agencies to "do something more. More. MOOOORRRRRRE!"

I'm reminded of a Frank Herbert quote-

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

 

[fskimospy]

I'm reminded of a Frank Herbert quote-

One of my top 3 favorite books of all time.

(And one of my most hated movies of all time. Fuck you, David Lynch)

 

[Brainonska511]

A Maine court has issued a quarantine order for the nurse. Let the battle begin.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/01/us/ebola-maine-nurse-kaci-hickox.html?_r=0

“This decision has critical implications for Respondent’s freedom, as guaranteed by the U.S. and Maine Constitutions, as well as the public’s right to be protected from the potential severe harm posed by transmission of this devastating disease,” Judge LaVerdiere wrote in the order.

I don't see how this will succeed though, considering earlier precedent for quarantines:

The last time patients in New York City were forced into isolation came with the outbreak of multidrug-resistant tuberculosis in the early 1990s, said Wendy E. Parmet, professor of health policy and law at Northeastern University School of Law. In those cases, officials targeted those recalcitrant patients who refused to take their medications, she said, rather than every person who tested positive, and even that practice faced court challenges. The approach resulted in the less restrictive “directly observed therapy,” in which patients were forced to take medications in front of officials, she said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/n...-halt-ebola-restrictions-prompt-a-debate.html


Even in the case of drug-resistant TB, they had trouble getting a quarantine when it was shown that they could simply have people take medication in front of a health official to ensure compliance.

 

[Brainonska511]

A Maine court has issued a quarantine order for the nurse. Let the battle begin.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/01/us/ebola-maine-nurse-kaci-hickox.html?_r=0




I don't see how this will succeed though, considering earlier precedent for quarantines:



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/27/n...-halt-ebola-restrictions-prompt-a-debate.html


Even in the case of drug-resistant TB, they had trouble getting a quarantine when it was shown that they could simply have people take medication in front of a health official to ensure compliance.

That was fast:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/01/u...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

FORT KENT, Me. — Less than a day after confining a nurse who treated Ebola victims to her house, a judge in Maine has lifted the quarantine, rejecting arguments by the State of Maine that the measure was necessary to protect the public.

 

[nixium]

Justice is served!

Stuff like this is what makes me glad to immigrate to this country. Despite all the fear mongering, ignorance and politicking, the judiciary is still strong enough to recognize the fundamental rights afforded to all citizens.

Take it from a foreigner.. GUARD THESE RIGHTS WITH EVERYTHING YOU HAVE!!!!

Fight against the forces of lobbying as well as fear mongering!

 

[Victorian Gray]

One of my top 3 favorite books of all time.

(And one of my most hated movies of all time. Fuck you, David Lynch)

if you haven't seen it, the extended cut is a lot better

 

[fskimospy]

if you haven't seen it, the extended cut is a lot better

Sadly I don't think any changed cut will overcome my nerd rage. The fundamental theme behind Dune was 'heroes are trouble'. I felt that the movie's theme was 'look at how kickass our hero is'.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

One of my top 3 favorite books of all time.

(And one of my most hated movies of all time. Fuck you, David Lynch)

George Pal did the same thing to the Doc Savage movie...a horrible, horrible movie! Still pisses me off....lol.

 

[bshole]

One of my top 3 favorite books of all time.

(And one of my most hated movies of all time. Fuck you, David Lynch)

My top three would be:
The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon
The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer
Bleak House by Charles Dickens

 

[fskimospy]

George Pal did the same thing to the Doc Savage movie...a horrible, horrible movie! Still pisses me off....lol.

Never seen the Doc Savage movie. I for one don't care if they change scenes or even plot elements when adapting a book. It does bother me when they change the fundamental thing the story is about though, especially for one of my favorites.

 

[massmedia]

On that we agree. Some have come in arguing science when all the science that exists goes against their fears, yet they go on and on about how they are right and everyone else who are far more expert are wrong.

well that's not really coherent, however in response to the bolded bit: a simple NO will suffice.

No for 2 reasons:

1) the basic science on Ebola is so poor that it is not clear whether or not a non-symptomatic person is capable of infecting others and it is not completely clear whether or not a person exhibiting no symptoms is not contagious. The "science" that keeps being touted is not robust and much of what is in the medical literature is anecdotal... along the lines of "we haven't seen such and such so xyz must be true".

2) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17684187?dopt=Citation

For example, New York City reacted earliest to the gathering influenza crisis, primarily with the sustained (>10weeks beginning September 19, 1918) and rigidly enforced application of compulsory isolation and quarantine procedures, along with an enforced staggered business hour ordinance from October 5 through November 3, 1918. During this era, New York City’s health department was renowned internationally for its innovative policies of mandatory case reporting and rigidly enforced isolation and quarantine procedures. Typically, individuals diagnosed with influenza were isolated in hospitals or makeshift facilities, while those suspected to have contact with an ill person (but who were not yet ill themselves) were quarantined in their homes with an official placard declaring that location to be under quarantine. New York City mounted an early and sustained response to the epidemic and experienced the lowest death rate on the Eastern seaboard...

Thousands or millions dead some predicted, yet we have no spread. Even the infamous Rick Perry couldn't bring about the holocaust.

wtf is this garbage nonsense babbling. what are you talking about, did Nostradamus predict something and I've missed it, lol???

 

[massmedia]

Also, we're still waiting for your list of people who are allowed to express opinions on quarantines.

I'd assumed that as prolific as you are you have the ability to think for yourself and are not in need of being spoon fed what you are supposed to think on this issue. I think for myself on this topic because I'm capable of understanding the science at play here, I'd suggest you do so because what you're going to be getting from the massmedia is utter garbage... so please don't go looking there. As to why you shouldn't be listening to the public bureaucratic statements from CDC and NIAID, that's already been covered.

 

[Sonikku]

The president needs to do more about this. :\



Well but not too much more... I don't want more government over reach.

 

[Victorian Gray]

this seems appropriate

 

[OverVolt]

The test they are using is pretty accurate FWIW and so I see no reason to quarantine someone when you can't detect ebola DNA after amplifying a DNA sample of her blood like a trillion times.

 

[massmedia]

Why should I be forced to dig through Pubmed for primary literature on the subject? I have my own scientific research to do. So I have to put some faith in the experts in the respective field (doctors and scientists who actually study this problem).

what you are saying is that you don't know if what you claimed to be true is true because you can't be bothered to care enough to actually go and look for yourself. wow, nice.

Based on this helpful review paper, which in practice, is usually as good as primary sources, since experts take the primary source data and put it in perspective together: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4197285/

Human transmission happens only through close contact with an ill or convalescent person, although at this stage the risk of infection is very small. Studies conducted during the various epidemics have shown that less than one fifth of the people (see Tables 2 and ​and3)3) living with a confirmed or probable primary patient have developed the disease [24–26, 35]. All secondary cases were recorded among people with close contact with the patient and exposed to infected biological fluids.

The short of it: no symptoms, no transmission.

First off, that assumption you're making about review papers is not a good one. If you are accustomed to taking the conclusions of review papers at face value on a regular basis you'll find that you can get burned by it. What review papers are great for is for locating other references to primary literature to read.

On the other hand if you're making a regular practice of this then you probably would never realize it since you're just taking things as the reviewer says at face value. Also what's up with the the prestigous journal of such and such that nobody ever heard of: Journal of Venomous Animals and Toxins including Tropical Diseases... wow.

------------
ref # 24 - WHO bulletin from 1983 - sample size = 34 people. That sample size is pretty atrocious. too small to produce the robust scientific result you can put on a flag and waive around saying "quarantines are not needed"... good for gleaning hints and lots of data but nothing robust.

------------
ref #25 - WHO bulletin from 1978 - "However, in one case of the disease, the only possible source of infection was contact with a probable case 48 hours before the latter developed symptoms." pg. 281 Let's take a moment to reflect on that last bit. I hope you won't mind if I say that last quoted bit from your referenced literature splats a cream pie straight in the face of the clam that the review article you quoted is somehow scientific evidence of... as you put it "no symptoms, no transmission".

Also the Methods: "Information collected on the occurrence of Ebola haemorrhagic fever in Bumba Zone was largely retrospective." pg. 277 Is this what counts as hard science in your field of study?
This last bit is interesting although widely known today: aka 'don't kill your partner by having sex' - "However, semen from one patient infected with a Zaire strain of Ebola virus in the United Kingdom contained virus for more than 2 months after onset of symptoms" pg. 289

------------
ref # 26 - WHO bulletin from 1978 - the same bulletin as above!... although this time it's from an international study team vs the "commission" from ref #25. Anyway this one is very interesting to read and they did a hell of a lot of work and yet the numbers are still too small to be robust.

Here is a quote from that reference that adds a 2nd cream pie to the face however: "It was possible to relate 48 cases and 27 deaths in Nzara to the original infection in PG, all acquired by direct close contact, usually involving nursing and care of an infected individual. However, in July, September, and October, further unrelated cases continued to occur in cotton factory employees for which no direct contact with previously sick persons could be established." pg. 248

To think that this reference is placed 1 sentence away from this sentence in the review article you cited: "Human transmission happens only through close contact with an ill or convalescent person..." One would almost suspect that the author had formed his opinion on transmission through reading other review articles.

ref # 35 "Transmission of Ebola Hemorrhagic Fever: A Study of Risk Factors in Family Members, Kikwit, Democratic Republic of the Congo, 1995". It's a SURVEY... a.k.a. interviews of family members... that is not robust science. It's something. It's more than nothing I suppose.