Question Qualcomm's first Nuvia based SoC - Hamoa

Frenetic Pony

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May 1, 2012
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They did compare their chip to Apple on the live stream. It has 50% more performance in multicore compared to M2.View attachment 87750

Ahhh, ok so it was on the live stream. But now it's gone from the press deck? This is stupid, I don't know what to make of this conference now.

Either way we know the M2 at "peak performance" is really, really bad performance per watt comparison. M2 max is only impressive in mobile efficiency, and not designed at all for peak clock efficiency. What a waste of a comparison, you can see how much they tried to minimize it by putting the asterisks in smaller font.
 

richardskrad

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Jun 28, 2022
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Interviews with more than two dozen former Apple employees and a review of legal filings show that Apple has lost dozens of key people to chip startups and more-established silicon companies since 2019. Collectively, this information provides the most complete picture to date of how Apple’s secretive silicon group operates and the behind-the-scenes drama that has unfolded since the departure of Gerard Williams III, the Apple executive responsible for the central processor inside iPhones, who left to create his own chip startup, Nuvia, in 2019.

“The gains in Apple’s CPU performance over the last few years have been very minor and mostly due to improvements in chip manufacturing rather than Apple’s chip design,” said Dylan Patel, chief analyst at research firm SemiAnalysis. “Since Williams left, Apple’s CPU performance gains have slowed significantly.”

Apple sued Williams six months after he left, accusing him of using its intellectual property at his new venture and of poaching key chip engineers to work at Nuvia while he was still employed at Apple. Earlier this year, Apple made similar accusations against Rivos, another chipmaker that has lured away key Apple silicon engineers.

People familiar with the two startups say the departures have had a deeply personal impact on [Apple SVP JohnySrouji] and his top lieutenant, Sribalan Santhanam, given their friendships with the former Apple employees who left for Nuvia and Rivos. They have also created tensions with a pair of venture capitalists—Lip-Bu Tan and Amarjit Gill—who are investors in both startups. Tan, a powerful figure in the chip industry who sits on the board of Intel, is closely linked to Apple as a key supplier of software tools for chip design, while Gill worked briefly at Apple after it bought his former startup, P.A. Semi, which helped Apple get its start in chips. Tan’s and Gill’s investments in Rivos haven’t been previously reported.
Qualcomm, which now owns Nuvia, declined to comment. Williams and representatives for Rivos, Tan and Gill didn’t respond to multiple requests for comment. In legal responses, lawyers for both Williams and Rivos have claimed the Apple lawsuits are baseless.

My take: Ma, a reporter relentless in his search for ways to take Apple down a notch, pegs this story to -- and blames the behind-the-scenes drama for -- a "snafu" that feels blown out of proportion:

Apple planned a generational leap for the graphics processor in the latest version of its high-end smartphones, the iPhone 14 Pro. But engineers were too ambitious with adding new features, and early prototypes drew more power than what the company had expected based on software simulations. That could have hurt battery life and made the device too hot, according to two people with direct knowledge of the incident. Because Apple discovered the mistake late in development, it had to base the graphics processor in its iPhone 14 Pro line—which powers the phone’s user interface, games and everything else visible on its screen—largely on the design of the chip that went into last year’s iPhone model, according to four people familiar with the matter.
 

controlflow

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Feb 17, 2015
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Yep Intel is going to in trouble and I doubt MTL is going to fix it.

It certainly looks like an interesting and promising product but relax with all the hyperbole. You always need to take marketing slides with a grain of salt. It is going to be cherry picked to show their product in the absolute best light.

FYI MTL releases in a few weeks...
This will need to compete with Zen 5 and eventually ARL/LNL soon after and it has to also deal with all the SW ecosystem disadvantage of being on Windows for ARM. It is more than pre-mature to call the end of x86 in client.
 

Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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So how and when did they settle those ARM lawsuits? I'm surprised that this chip has a release date

It won't matter unless ARM gets an injunction barring their sale. I imagine they would ask for one as part of the pretrial motions once a firm release date is known, but the chance of getting one is probably near zero. To get an injunction in a case like this you would have to convince a judge that you are more likely than not to win the case on its merits, AND that you would suffer considerable harm (or maybe irreparable harm, not sure of the standard) if the injunction is not granted.

It is hard to see how ARM could claim they would suffer considerable (let alone irreparable) harm should Qualcomm sell these products and a later court case ruled they were not properly licensed by ARM. If ARM won the case they would ask again for an injunction, and that would stand a very good chance of being granted. If it stood up to appeals Qualcomm would owe damages, and that would cure any harm from the time of their sale.

I saw mention elsewhere that their CPU is ARMv8.7, which seems a little out of date for something shipping in 2024 (and I don't know if that's been confirmed so it may not even be true) One possible explanation mentioned was that the disagreement with Qualcomm may have to do with an architectural license covering ARMv9 only. We don't know the details of the agreement(s) in question so it is all speculation, but that seemed an interesting theory.
 

SpudLobby

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May 18, 2022
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Apple is struggling with sales. Qualcomm wont be any better plus amd and intel will have superior products
Apple had multiple years of similar or superior growth for the Mac and also has managed to price the M2 products too high relative to the RAM and SSD options.

Qualcomm is in a totally different position on that front and has various Windows OEM's to work with along with a broad appeal in a part that offers great max perf, great perf/W, ample heterogeneous processing, good battery life and without any of Apple's marginal pricing shenanigans.

They are much more similar to AMD and Intel here, albeit with a new product. More importantly, cyclical market winds in industries like this [which would affect AMD and Intel as well for PC's in 2024 and 2025] are a separate question to the long term, secular changes and/or the appeal of a product.

As for superior products, maybe. But also higher cost and arriving later. Strix Point won't genuinely be in ultraportables until 2025 and MTL is meme volume. Arrow Lake on N3 and I3/20A is a mixed bag but not that much better on performance per leaks, and will have a much worse cost structure than Qualcomm on N4P, same with Lunar Lake on N3, though that one is a bigger threat due to the battery life potential.

So we'll see. The die size leak on the X Elite should give people pause relative to how much performance they've eked out of this thing because it's clearly not as expensive to build as anticipated.
 

Doug S

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Feb 8, 2020
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Avalanche @3.7 : 100
Oryon @3.8 : 70
Oryon @4.3 : ??

Will Oryon @4.3 exceed the power consumption of Avalanche @3.7 ?

70 → 100 is a 42% gain in power consumption.

So will Oryon's power consumption increase by 42% while performance only increases by 13% ?

We have no other data, so we are in the dark regarding this.

But I am bullish on the power efficiency of Oryon. At the worst, I think @4.3 GHz it will match or exceed Avalanche @3.7 GHz, but not by much.


Well we've got some data from the graph Qualcomm provided. It "matches competitor performance at 68% less power" i.e. vs i7-1360p performance. Assuming the y axis is linear (it is unmarked so you can't know for sure) it appears that at max power it is about 30% faster than i7-1360p. More than triple the power is required to gain 30% performance.

We can also observe that as expected the curve is flattening beyond that iso performance mark, culminating in the 30% better performance it gets at 3.8 GHz (because it won't run any cores at 4.3 GHz in a multithreaded test) and we know the the curve will continue to further flatten from 3.8 GHz to 4.3 GHz.

If you require more than triple the power to gain 30% in performance, I'd guess that in an even flatter part of the curve (to the right of what is shown) you're gonna be in the ballpark of doubling power to get that extra 13% at 4.3 GHz.
 
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FlameTail

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Rumour: Qualcomm, Samsung working with AMD on FSR


Interesting developments. The way I am interpreting this rumour is that Samsung wants to have FSR on their Galaxy smartphones. Which is obvious since Exynos processors* now use AMD's RDNA GPU IP. The reason Qualcomm is involved is since Samsung dual-sources both Exynos and Snapdragon chips for their flagship S series. They want one single solution working on their phones: FSR.

Still this does leave open for further possibilities, as the commenters have noted. Will Qualcomm and AMD further collaborate on FSR, with the potentiality of FSR coming to future Snapdragon X processors ? On one hand FSR is inferior to DLSS, so it could benefit from more engineers working on it to improve it. On the other hand, Snapdragon X is a direct threat to AMD's Ryzen, so it may be detrimental for AMD to collaborate.
 

Doug S

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Unless the dueling lawsuits are resolved before then, Qualcomm might not be able to sell it and even if they can OEMs might shy away for fear of being sued by ARM or it being pulled off the market by a judge's ruling at some point.
 
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FlameTail

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Unless the dueling lawsuits are resolved before then, Qualcomm might not be able to sell it and even if they can OEMs might shy away for fear of being sued by ARM or it being pulled off the market by a judge's ruling at some point.

ARM is shooting themselves in the foot here. Even worse, they want Qualcomm to destroy the Nuvia IP. WHAT!?

That Nuvia IP might very well be the key for ARM to break into the PC market with full force and end the reign of x86.

What is ARM thinking ?
 

Thala

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Nov 12, 2014
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ARM is shooting themselves in the foot here. Even worse, they want Qualcomm to destroy the Nuvia IP. WHAT!?

That Nuvia IP might very well be the key for ARM to break into the PC market with full force and end the reign of x86.

What is ARM thinking ?

I would assume ARM was forced into this by their owner, because Softbank surely appreciates making quick money.
 

Roland00Address

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Dec 17, 2008
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ARM is shooting themselves in the foot here. Even worse, they want Qualcomm to destroy the Nuvia IP. WHAT!?

That Nuvia IP might very well be the key for ARM to break into the PC market with full force and end the reign of x86.

What is ARM thinking ?
A tool they do not control is not a tool that makes them money. They may make some money but it would be a fraction of what they could make, if Qualcomm figured a way to skirt the licensing arrangement. This is because ARM makes more money the larger the core they sell.
 

KompuKare

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I would assume ARM was forced into this by their owner, because Softbank surely appreciates making quick money.
So much for Japanese companies taking a long term view.
Yes, the may want to re-negotiate the royalties, but killing of the most promising ARM core (outside of Apple) would be to their long-term loss.
 

Doug S

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So much for Japanese companies taking a long term view.
Yes, the may want to re-negotiate the royalties, but killing of the most promising ARM core (outside of Apple) would be to their long-term loss.


ARM is not owned by Softbank but by the Vision Fund, which Softbank founded and owns a large share of (Saudi Arabia's public investment fund owns the largest chunk) It basically operates like a venture capital fund, so high risk high reward strategies like what ARM appears to be doing (if Qualcomm's claims are true) fit right in.

The reason (founder/chairman) Son is a multibillionaire is he was a very early investor in Alibaba, and made something like a 3000x return on millions invested, so he knows about high risk high reward investments!
 

FlameTail

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FlameTail

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And I also hope they adopt a sensible naming scheme "Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3" is bad enough. With a large Apple M1-like SoC of that type, there is going to be various SKUs with different frequencies and core counts.