Discussion Qualcomm Snapdragon Thread

[SpudLobby]

What on earth is 6+4?

Is this a new die?

No of course not. And 6 + 4 would probably be with two clusters that have 1/4 fastest cores chosen, probably like 3 on each, and then 4 on the final cluster. That’s what was rumored. There was no 4+4 SKU I don’t think.

 

[SpudLobby]

Imma do some math.

We are gonna use GB5 Multi-core, since GB5's multi-core scales properly compared to GB6.

My goal: To attempt to guess how powerful Phoenix-M, the efficiency core of the 8 Gen 4 is.

Let's take the Apple A17 Pro.

GB5 MC: 6500 points

We know that the P core in the A17 Pro has 3x the performance of the E core. (Source Geekerwan SPEC2017).

From that we can write an equation

E-core = a
P-core = 3a

2 P-cores + 4 E-cores = 6500

2 (3a) + 4 (a) = 6500

10a = 6500

a = 650.

Therefore,
P-core = 1950 points
E-core = 650 points

Now I'll tell you the reason why I did all this calculation for A17 Pro. It is because the P-core in A17 Pro and P-core in SD8G4 are very similar, judging by the leaked benchmarks.

Hence we'll assume that the SD8G4 P-core (Phoenix-L) has the same score as A17 Pro P-core.

SD 8G4
GB5 MC : 9000 points (leaked)

2 (Phoenix-L) + 6 (Phoenix-M) = 9000
2 (1950) + 6 (Phoenix-M) = 9000
3900 + 6 (Phoenix-M) = 9000
6 (Phoenix-M) = 5100
Phoenix-M = 850

It's some rough math, but we ended up with Phoenix-M = 850.

That means Phoenix-M is about 30% faster than A17 Pro E-core.

I mean it’s obviously going to be around the same range. It’s probably just going to end up like a much better version of the A720 on energy or perf iso-power, albeit at more area (just like Apple when you include the L2) and not quite matching Apple on energy, but that’s fine.

Anyway, the pessimism about the Phoenix M cores is odd. If at worst they offer the same power consumption as a downclocked A720 for background tasks albeit with more performance, that’s very likely going to mean lower energy consumption, albeit still faster. You gotta calm down lol.

 

[SpudLobby]

The existence of the Snapdragon X Plus is great news. It means we will get much more affordable laptops with Snapragon X processors.

I mean what it also could mean is they’ll charge more for the X Elite but yea depending on what parametric yields look like, it could mean that because X Plus will have lower frequencies per leaks.

 

[FlameTail]

Q: How do I pin the first comment in this thread?

In some other threads, the first comment has been pinned, such that it is visible on every page.

 

[FlameTail]

https://x.com/heyitsyogesh/status/1752558828070342829?s=20

Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 costs $200 per unit for OEMs.

Good lord.

 

[FlameTail]

Make more sense to have the base model with no suffix, then to have Plus, Pro, Elite.

I guess they will do this with the 2nd gen.

If they name the cut down SKU, with no suffix for this first gen, it would be:

Snapdragon X Elite -> Snapdragon X

The issue with that is it will cause confusion. Snapdragon X is the brand name for all of Qualcomm's PC processors going forward.

In that case they should have named the X Elite as the 'X1 Elite' or 'X Elite Gen 1' instead. (I am in favour of the former system).

Then we the cut down SKU can be called Snapdragon X1.

 

[hemedans]

I mean duh, it’s in a phone, and a phone chip that has less area devoted to MT than would be if they made a laptop chip, both in terms of big cores and cache, and so the perf/W would actually improve at say 10+W if QC made an X4 + A720 laptop SoC.


At any rate it uses that at it’s peak, so what? The individual performance per watt curves for ST performance — and with the whole platform — blow anything from AMD and Intel out of the water. ~ 1680 GB5 ST at roughly 4.5W of active power? AMD can do more, but only at 15-25W (likewise Intel even with Meteor Lake) and iso-performance I am skeptical they’d be able to match that power consumption. The X4 in spite of the power bloat is still a fantastic core closer to Apple than it is AMD/Intel’s bloat for obvious reasons but still.

Likewise AMD and Intel have nothing with the power *and* area footprint of an A720 at the same performance, much less Apple on energy (albeit at greater area cost.)

So it is still pretty interesting to me how competitive “even” generic Arm core is in a 64B, cut down phone chip.

Isn't that figure inflated by uncore? How much actual x86 core use?

You have size comparison between A720 and Zen 4C, LPe or E cores?

What I understand most X86 Cpu use too much power because they pack lot of things, striped X86 soc would consume less power, like Steam Deck Apu use less power, 15W or less while providing performance between 8+ gen 1 and 8 gen 2, this is 2021-2022 arm tech manufactured in latest node vs 2019 X86 core manufactured in old node.

 

[FlameTail]

Well it seems like X Plus is their go to.

IMHO: fantastic strategy that mimics more of Apple on simplicity than AMD and Intel’s mess.

So that's what they meant here:

Introducing an all-new naming convention for our next-generation of intelligent PC platforms: The Snapdragon X Series

Snapdragon X compute platforms will deliver next-level performance, AI, connectivity and battery life, building on our years of experience engineering heterogeneous compute architectures across the CPU, GPU and NPU.

www.qualcomm.com

Tbh, I am a fan.

 

[FlameTail]

You have size comparison between A720 and Zen 4C, LPe or E cores?

I have readily available die shots of ARM SoCs which I can share. Bring your die shots of your x86 SoCs and we can compare them.

 

[FlameTail]

Best native apps for Windows on Arm in 2023

Windows 11 devices running on Arm processors are becoming more common, and if you want to make the most of them, these are the apps to try.

www.xda-developers.com

There is a surprisingly good collection of native apps for Windows On ARM. Even some games like CS:GO.

I think a lot of people aren't aware about this.

Sure, the native app selection will be limited at the beginning. But is that a problem?

It has to begin from somewhere.

Also Qualcomm will not remain as the sole WoA silicon provider for long.

There was a report of Nvidia make SoCs for WoA in 2025. That will bring a ton incentive for developers.

 

[moinmoin]

Sure, the native app selection will be limited at the beginning. But is that a problem?

It's always a problem when an OS or a CPU ISA is not as widespread as the mainstream ones.

 

[FlameTail]

Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 Estimated To Cost $200 for Qualcomm’s Partners, Making It 25 Percent Pricier Than The Snapdragon 8 Gen 2

The Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 is estimated to be 25 percent more expensive than the Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, eating into Qualcomm partners’ margins

wccftech.com

I wonder how much X Elite would cost then.

8G2 = 119 mm² = $160
8G3 = 137 mm² = $200
X Elite = ~172 mm² = ???

All these are on N4P.

Edit: Yes I know the site is WFTTech, but the original source is from Twitter.

 

[Nothingness]

It's always a problem when an OS or a CPU ISA is not as widespread as the mainstream ones.

I'd rather say it's a combination of OS and ISA here: there are more end-user devices running iOS or Android with an Arm CPU than devices running x86 + Windows.

And certainly Arm + Windows still is a blip on the radar.

 

[FlameTail]

And certainly Arm + Windows still is a blip on the radar

I bet ChromeOS+ARM is higher than even that.

 

[moinmoin]

I'd rather say it's a combination of OS and ISA here: there are more end-user devices running iOS or Android with an Arm CPU than devices running x86 + Windows.

And certainly Arm + Windows still is a blip on the radar.

Of course. Windows may be widespread. Windows running any other ISA other than x86 never were. Open source OSes like Linux might be a little more ISA agnostic but even there x86 is more widespread than any other. Linux as underlying part of Android barely helps the Linux ecosystem as in Android setups they are treated as mainly proprietary blobs due to few of the drivers being upstreamed. etc. pp.

 

[Doug S]

Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 Estimated To Cost $200 for Qualcomm’s Partners, Making It 25 Percent Pricier Than The Snapdragon 8 Gen 2

The Snapdragon 8 Gen 3 is estimated to be 25 percent more expensive than the Snapdragon 8 Gen 2, eating into Qualcomm partners’ margins

wccftech.com

I wonder how much X Elite would cost then.

8G2 = 119 mm² = $160
8G3 = 137 mm² = $200
X Elite = ~172 mm² = ???

All these are on N4P.

Edit: Yes I know the site is WFTTech, but the original source is from Twitter.

They aren't pricing based on what it costs them to get those chips from TSMC, just like Intel and AMD aren't priced based on their costs. The X Elite might be $300 or might be $600 depending on how it compares to Intel/AMD offerings and what those are priced at. They will charge whatever they think OEMs will pay.

Those rooting for it to beat Intel/AMD had better be prepared for a very high price. If they want affordable systems containing it they should root for it to underperform compared to the competition.

 

[soresu]

They aren't pricing based on what it costs them to get those chips from TSMC, just like Intel and AMD aren't priced based on their costs. The X Elite might be $300 or might be $600 depending on how it compares to Intel/AMD offerings and what those are priced at. They will charge whatever they think OEMs will pay.

It's a bit more complicated than that because of their effective market monopoly on cellular modems.

 

[SpudLobby]

They aren't pricing based on what it costs them to get those chips from TSMC, just like Intel and AMD aren't priced based on their costs. The X Elite might be $300 or might be $600 depending on how it compares to Intel/AMD offerings and what those are priced at. They will charge whatever they think OEMs will pay.

Those rooting for it to beat Intel/AMD had better be prepared for a very high price. If they want affordable systems containing it they should root for it to underperform compared to the competition.

Yeah. Each die might cost $30-40 sans packaging.

I think the price won’t be *too* exorbitant. It will absolutely be substantially higher than AMD would charge for Phoenix at the same die size, and probably similar to if not a bit more than Strix but (though grapevine) nothing that makes this uncompetitive, which was not the case with the 8cx Gen 3 for ex — they charged what OEMs would pay and we got a bunch of middling BS.

ST & MT performance are either in a similar range (Strix Point will have 4 Zen 5’s and 8 Zen 5C’s which doubtless will be an ST, MT boost) with AMD’s most likely next generation, or ahead of Intel’s MTL and likely LNL — but obviously battery life + efficiency will be their differentiation.




Anyway I will bet it commands a premium, just not enough to where X Plus and X Elite SKUs are pricing laptops out. They know they need at least some volume and either both or OEMs and consumers have to be willing to pay some given price. I do not think Qualcomm is going to be stupid and reckless about that this time around, it’s clearly a meaningful priority.

But we’ll see.

 

[SpudLobby]

What is interesting is that it probably does use memory-on-package LPDDR5x. I admit I was wrong on that. It’s only one type of memory — LPDDR5x 8533 that they list and the targets for package dimensions or idle power gain from this. Which makes sense given their markets.

We’ll see if they go nuts on the marginal pricing there.

 

[FlameTail]

Those rooting for it to beat Intel/AMD had better be prepared for a very high price. If they want affordable systems containing it they should root for it to underperform compared to the competition.

It's a bit complicated situation.

When X Elite arrives in mid-2024, it will be the undisputed leader in mobile. So Qualcomm has the good reason to charge a premium.

But that will change in 4-6 months time, when Lunar Lake, Arrow Lake Mobile and Strix Point enter the market. So Qualcomm may aptly have to reduce prices.

 

[FlameTail]

What is interesting is that it probably does use memory-on-package LPDDR5x. I admit I was wrong on that. It’s only one type of memory — LPDDR5x 8533 that they list and the targets for package dimensions or idle power gain from this. Which makes sense given their markets.

We’ll see if they go nuts on the marginal pricing there.

Qualcomm has a lot of avenues to make money that they can bundle with the SoC.

• 5G modems
• WiFi + Bluetooth chips
• On-package memory (if it does happen).

I would advise Qualcomm to reserve charging their high margins for the upsells. Stuff like the optional 5G modem and higher capacities of on-package memory.

 

[FlameTail]

Apple extends deal with Qualcomm for 5G modems until 2027

Apple announced last year that it would extend its agreement with Qualcomm to continue using the company’s 5G modems until...

9to5mac.com

Eventually, a day will come when Qualcomm's huge revenue stream from Apple will dry up.

 

[Doug S]

It's a bit more complicated than that because of their effective market monopoly on cellular modems.

Mediatek and Samsung both have modems, so there is no reason for anyone to be locked in to Qualcomm. Qualcomm used to have a built in advantage in the US because they basically owned the CDMA standard that Verizon and Sprint were using for 3G. Now that those networks are being shut down (have been shut down?) modems no longer need to be compatible with 3G CDMA, so Qualcomm has no advantage over Mediatek and Samsung for modems.

Now maybe their modems are technically better, but who the hell cares if their phone's top 5G speed is 7 Gbps or 14 Gbps, or if it can hold onto a 1 bar signal another couple hundred yards from the tower? For most people those things don't matter. That's why for all the whining about how inferior Intel's modems were than Qualcomm's when Apple was using both, their sales were not affected at all.

With 3G CDMA no longer a thing I expect we will see more Androids sold in the US with no Qualcomm parts.

 

[FlameTail]

Mediatek and Samsung both have modems, so there is no reason for anyone to be locked in to Qualcomm. Qualcomm used to have a built in advantage in the US because they basically owned the CDMA standard that Verizon and Sprint were using for 3G. Now that those networks are being shut down (have been shut down?) modems no longer need to be compatible with 3G CDMA, so Qualcomm has no advantage over Mediatek and Samsung for modems.

Now maybe their modems are technically better, but who the hell cares if their phone's top 5G speed is 7 Gbps or 14 Gbps, or if it can hold onto a 1 bar signal another couple hundred yards from the tower? For most people those things don't matter. That's why for all the whining about how inferior Intel's modems were than Qualcomm's when Apple was using both, their sales were not affected at all.

With 3G CDMA no longer a thing I expect we will see more Androids sold in the US with no Qualcomm parts.

Samsung's discrete modems are evidently potatoes, judging by recent Google Pixel phones.

 

[Thibsie]

What I fear is Qualcomm imposing a mandatory bundle with modem/Bluetooth etc to generate extra cash. They are totally capable IMO.