Q: Is China going to overtake the U.S. as the world's foremost superpower?

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
126
Currently imprisoned but still prolific writer Conrad Black has a three page editorial on the rise of China and if the West has anything to fear from it. In short, no, but the article is an interesting read anyways. I've extracted the portions that highlight China's strengths and weaknesses below.

Key notes:

- About half of China's population (1.6 billion) live in exactly the same conditions as they did during the pre-industrial era
- The number of children going on to high school in China has actually declined
- China is going to be buying up a lot of tangible U.S. assets pretty soon; can/will the U.S. stop it?
- China has more problems than the United States, and is not as rich or well-organized a country

An economic colossus, born in blood

Since 1978, [China's] annual economic growth rate has been a formidable 8% to 9%; and since 1990, per capita annual income has risen from $350 to $3,000. There are the predictable claims of imminent Chinese world economic supremacy, but we have heard all that before from the Nazis, Soviets, and Japanese, and they should be received with caution.

There are still at least 800 million Chinese peasants who live much as they did thousands of years ago. There is a population control plan that will raise the average age by one year every two years for at least two decades, and reduce the worker-to-retiree ratio from 3-to-1 to 2-to-1 in the next 20 years. There are acute shortages of land and water, and most social services.

Government spending on health and education has declined from 25% to 35% in 20 years. The private sector has taken up a lot of this, but about half the population receives no medical care at all. The percentage of middle school students going on to high school has actually declined by a third in the last 20 years.

The state still owns the country's banks, natural resources, heavy industry and telecommunications, and controls about 35% of all production. Ecological damage is very serious and costly, affecting three quarters of the country's water courses and most of its air. Distinguished China specialist James Fallows reckons that China suffers 250 deaths in mining accidents every day.

Corruption and arbitrariness in government are pandemic. The state has liberalized, but within limits that were dramatically underlined by the needless massacre in Tianenmen Square 20 years ago (the crowd could have been dispersed bloodlessly with fire hoses and rubber bullets, as they would have been in Western capitals).

The sense of the inexorable rise of China has been heightened by the inexplicable blunders of the United States in the last 15 years, of borrowing trillions of dollars from China and Japan to buy trillions of dollars of non-essential goods from China and Japan, and admitting millions of low-paid undocumented immigrants, while outsourcing millions of low-paid jobs (largely to China), and forcing the private sector to waste trillions more on unsound residential mortgages.

It is not clear that China can persuade its domestic economy to absorb much of the exports that have been lost to the recession and a belated reawakening of thrift in the U. S. But it has played its financial cards cleverly. China is shortening the maturities on its U. S. treasuries; 25% are now short-term. China will not sit with mountains of 3%-yield U. S. bonds, and appears to be preparing to buy large quantities of tangible U. S. assets, probably in the technology sector.

The Chinese cannot be counted upon to overpay wildly as the Arabs and the Japanese did when they squandered the bonanzas that burned holes in their pockets 20 and 30 years ago.

This will soon become a political issue in the United States.

China has more problems than the United States, and is not as rich or well-organized a country. Beijing is not about to overtake Washington, but its growth has been astounding and will continue. The first 30 years of the Chinese Revolution were a sanguinary version of The Gong Show. The last 30 have changed the world, for the better.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
On the surface, I think China's economy will slowly catch up to ours. However, it will take a very long time for China to acquire the power projection capabilities that this country has. I don't see the US being supplanted as the foremost economic or military power in the world any time soon.

fuckin' time warps... OP BELOW
 

Elias824

Golden Member
Mar 13, 2007
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76
Its possible that as we see their cost of labor go up we will see more people bring jobs back to the US. Though I could be wrong
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,699
6,257
126
Things can change quickly, especially with such a recently progressive/aggressive nation as China. One example is in Green Technologies. Many of us like to bash China regarding GHG emissions and other Pollutions, but they are moving much more swiftly towards Green Tech than even we are and in the next few years we could see a tidal wave of Electric Vehicles being Exported from China that'll make your head spin. If China gets the jump and takes the lead on this New Tech, it can change everything before anyone even realizes it.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: JS80
The politically correct answer is "Never"

Corrected for you. Unless something changes our current paths, then yes, it will happen at some point.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I believe China is the number one economy already, military power is quite another thing. If military hardware were not a moving target, China would almost never catch up. As it is, China can slowly buy the best and the new high tech, and gradually pull ahead as
US existing stuff becomes obsolete.
 

0marTheZealot

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2004
1,692
0
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Originally posted by: Lemon law
I believe China is the number one economy already, military power is quite another thing. If military hardware were not a moving target, China would almost never catch up. As it is, China can slowly buy the best and the new high tech, and gradually pull ahead as
US existing stuff becomes obsolete.

Nah, the US economy is still at least 50% larger than China's, depending on who's estimates you believe. However, the growth of the two countries is quite different. China grows between 7% and 11% a year while the US is between 1% and 3%. It's all a question of trends. If the current trends hold, China overtakes us in the mid-century.

Militarily-wise, the US is far ahead of China. China still has to catch up with Russia before even thinking about the US. Technologically-wise, Russia and the US are within 5 years of each other. It's the absolute quantity that the US is well ahead in.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Originally posted by: Elias824
Its possible that as we see their cost of labor go up we will see more people bring jobs back to the US. Though I could be wrong

I wouldn't have a problem with that because we cannot sustain growth if we keep offloading our jobs to China.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
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China actually exports products...what does the USA actually manufacture and export?

China has a budget surplus...how are those trillion dollar budget deficits treating the US?
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
How quickly China gets off their market based healthcare system will have a large impact on how quickly they overtake us:

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-30279992_ITM

Byline: OLGA PIERCE

WASHINGTON, April 10 (UPI) -- Pressing healthcare problems are on the rise just as the Chinese healthcare system is reaching its weakest point in recent history, experts said Tuesday.

The country's ability to shore up its healthcare safety net could have a dramatic impact on China and the rest of the world.

"The current Chinese system has all the downsides of an almost unregulated market in the presence of considerable poverty," said David Blumenthal, director of the Institute for Health Policy at Massachusetts General Hospital.

"That makes the expenses people have to pay tremendously damaging to the health and economic health of the country," he told United Press International.

After decades of significant health and life-expectancy gains, the Chinese government has effectively dismantled its system of universal basic care. In its place is a market-based system where roughly half of urban dwellers have employer-based coverage. Rural areas have been largely left behind: about four in five rural Chinese are uninsured.

For the uninsured in China, access to healthcare is nowhere near guaranteed. Healthcare costs are 40 times higher than they were in the early 1980s, but 58 percent is financed by individual out-of-pocket payments.

The government is in the process of reforming their system and going back to a universal healthcare model because a sizeable portion of their citizens have been devastated by the current market based system.
 

bobsmith1492

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2004
3,875
3
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Originally posted by: Phokus
How quickly China gets off their market based healthcare system will have a large impact on how quickly they overtake us:

The government is in the process of reforming their system and going back to a universal healthcare model because a sizeable portion of their citizens have been devastated by the current market based system.

China? Health care? Try this: half the country has absolutely no access to anything. There's no way the government can provide us-level health care to everyone, either.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
There is no such thing as losing military Superpower status when you have the ability to destroy the world on your own within 45 min.


Economic superpower status? Sure, China can dump their USD holdings, and its bread-line time.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: bobsmith1492
Originally posted by: Phokus
How quickly China gets off their market based healthcare system will have a large impact on how quickly they overtake us:

The government is in the process of reforming their system and going back to a universal healthcare model because a sizeable portion of their citizens have been devastated by the current market based system.

China? Health care? Try this: half the country has absolutely no access to anything. There's no way the government can provide us-level health care to everyone, either.

You're wrong. The Rural population USED to have access to medical care when it was socialized. After they privatized medicine, almost nobody had access. Who the hell wants to provide medical service to the rural poor when you can be making money from the urban rich/middle class? Free Market FTL.

The barefoot doctor system was abolished in 1981 with the end of the commune system of agricultural cooperatives. The new economic policy in China promoted a shift from collectivism to individual production by the family unit.[3] This shift caused a privatization of the medical system, which could not sustain the barefoot doctors.[3] The barefoot doctors were given the option to take a national exam, if they passed they became village doctors, if not they would be village health aides. Village doctors began charging patients for their services,[3] and because of the new economic incentives,[1] they began to shift their focus to treatment of chronic conditions rather than preventative care.[1]

By 1984, village RCMS coverage had dropped from 90% to 4.8%.[2] In 1989 the Chinese government tried to restore a cooperative health care system in the rural provinces by launching a nationwide primary health care program.[2] This effort increased coverage up to 10% by 1993.[2] In 1994 the government established ?The Program?, which was an effort to reestablish primary health care coverage for the rural population.[2]
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: Patranus
China actually exports products...what does the USA actually manufacture and export?

China has a budget surplus...how are those trillion dollar budget deficits treating the US?

The US is still the world's largest exporter.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: OCguy
There is no such thing as losing military Superpower status when you have the ability to destroy the world on your own within 45 min.


Economic superpower status? Sure, China can dump their USD holdings, and its bread-line time.

They would be destroyed also. They know that very well. In fact, it would hurt them far more than it would hurt us.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
87,743
54,757
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Originally posted by: OCguy
There is no such thing as losing military Superpower status when you have the ability to destroy the world on your own within 45 min.


Economic superpower status? Sure, China can dump their USD holdings, and its bread-line time.

And watch China's economy go down the toilet. Bread lines here? They would kill to have bread in that situation.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: JS80
The politically correct answer is "Never"

Corrected for you. Unless something changes our current paths, then yes, it will happen at some point.

Manufacturing based economy = inferior.
 

Fox5

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
5,957
7
81
Originally posted by: 0marTheZealot
Originally posted by: Lemon law
I believe China is the number one economy already, military power is quite another thing. If military hardware were not a moving target, China would almost never catch up. As it is, China can slowly buy the best and the new high tech, and gradually pull ahead as
US existing stuff becomes obsolete.

Nah, the US economy is still at least 50% larger than China's, depending on who's estimates you believe. However, the growth of the two countries is quite different. China grows between 7% and 11% a year while the US is between 1% and 3%. It's all a question of trends. If the current trends hold, China overtakes us in the mid-century.

Militarily-wise, the US is far ahead of China. China still has to catch up with Russia before even thinking about the US. Technologically-wise, Russia and the US are within 5 years of each other. It's the absolute quantity that the US is well ahead in.

You think Russia is that close in technology? If you had picked any of our close allies (the UK, France, Israel, etc), I'd agree, but Russia...not so much.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: OCguy
There is no such thing as losing military Superpower status when you have the ability to destroy the world on your own within 45 min.


Economic superpower status? Sure, China can dump their USD holdings, and its bread-line time.

And watch China's economy go down the toilet. Bread lines here? They would kill to have bread in that situation.

They are starting to hedge their bets with Euros.

You can say many things about the Chinese, but being stupid is not one of them.
 

Cogman

Lifer
Sep 19, 2000
10,284
138
106
My Chinese roommate says no. According to him, china has terrible problems internally, he said that most south American nations are doing better then china (as far as become a world power goes).
 

Ronstang

Lifer
Jul 8, 2000
12,493
18
81
Originally posted by: Engineer
Originally posted by: JS80
The politically correct answer is "Never"

Corrected for you. Unless something changes our current paths, then yes, it will happen at some point.

Actually he is right. China's economic power is overwhelmingly based on the US and other first world nations being consumers. They have not built their economy on bedrock like the US has and as a result they are always at risk. The average worker in China cannot afford the products they make. Even Henry Ford realized how important it was for the workers to be able to afford the cars they were building, and that was 100 years ago. China isn't buying US debt for the heck of it either. They need a steady stream of guaranteed income for certain aspects of their economy. China is also not benevolent in nature. They will never be much but a huge factory until energy costs rise so much that it will no longer be feasible to transport cheap goods halfway across the globe. At that point China is in huge trouble.
 

Ausm

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
25,213
14
81
Originally posted by: Cogman
My Chinese roommate says no. According to him, china has terrible problems internally, he said that most south American nations are doing better then china (as far as become a world power goes).

I think he has a point there take a look at Brazil.