Putin?s control of oil and gas may bring the West to its knees

[EagleKeeper]

What is your defiition of Communism then?

And what is Putin attempting to do?

 

[IvanAndreevich]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
What is your defiition of Communism then?

And what is Putin attempting to do?

There is no _my_ definition of communism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism And if you read that, it's pretty evident that it doesn't apply to Russia (or China). There is a lot of private ownership.

I think Putin is a power freak, but the interesting thing is that people recognize it and don't mind it. What they don't want is turmoil and corruption which was the case under Yeltsin. Russia has gotten much more prosperous under Putin, so people want to just live their lives, buy their cars, enjoy their vacations. Not risk all that in search for freedom, which under present condition, will just cause trouble.

The reason pure democracy (with unrestricted freedom of speech, etc) cannot work in Russia is corruption. Really, people pushing for a "free" Russia haven't got a clue. It's much better when Putin (one thug) is running the country as opposed to hundreds or thousands of thugs running it.

I believe that to complete the transition to democracy and do away with corruption (if that's even possible) will require a whole new generation of people.

For now, Putin's way is simply the least of two evils. To see that, we need to look no further than what happened under Yeltsin.

 

[yllus]

I don't know about the West in terms of North America, but this is certainly shaping up to be a major issue for Europe. Be interesting to see if they scramble to become more energy independent.

 

[Colt45]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
What is your defiition of Communism then?

And what is Putin attempting to do?

hahahahahahaha. wow. you've gotta be kidding me.

 

[theeedude]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
We may be arguing over a matter of semantics.

Putin seems to want to take Russia backwards where the government controlled everything.

To me Communism is where the State controls everything for the benefit of the State.
"Authoritarianism" is just a strong leadership of the political system, allowing the economic system to operate on its own.

What I see in Russia is that the government wants to take control of the economic system.

The people want the State to ensure that they will be taken care of no matter what the independent thought/choice may be.

Russian government wants to take control of strategic sectors of the economic system, mainly energy. But that is no different than Saudi Arabia, which noone is calling a Communist country.
Don't confuse that with a Communist system, where the state controlled all aspects of the economy down to how many and what kind of shoes the factories made. The west only cares about the energy sector when it comes to Russia, so that's all it sees, but that's not all that is happening in Russia. There is a thriving capitalist economy in Russia, including for example a 13% flat tax that free market conservatives in the US can only dream about.

 

[Genx87]

On thing people seem to forget is when the price of oil is so high alternatives are viable. We wont hesitate as an economy to move in that direction, provided of cours govt intervention doesnt interfere with said move.

My biggest fear right now isnt high price of oil. It is the govt plowing billions into corn ethanol when it is clearly the wrong alternative compared to switch grass.

 

[HannibalX]

Originally posted by: Genx87
On thing people seem to forget is when the price of oil is so high alternatives are viable. We wont hesitate as an economy to move in that direction, provided of cours govt intervention doesnt interfere with said move.

My biggest fear right now isnt high price of oil. It is the govt plowing billions into corn ethanol when it is clearly the wrong alternative compared to switch grass.

Agreed 100%!

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: IvanAndreevich

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
What is your defiition of Communism then?

And what is Putin attempting to do?

There is no _my_ definition of communism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism And if you read that, it's pretty evident that it doesn't apply to Russia (or China). There is a lot of private ownership.

I think Putin is a power freak, but the interesting thing is that people recognize it and don't mind it. What they don't want is turmoil and corruption which was the case under Yeltsin. Russia has gotten much more prosperous under Putin, so people want to just live their lives, buy their cars, enjoy their vacations. Not risk all that in search for freedom, which under present condition, will just cause trouble.

The reason pure democracy (with unrestricted freedom of speech, etc) cannot work in Russia is corruption. Really, people pushing for a "free" Russia haven't got a clue. It's much better when Putin (one thug) is running the country as opposed to hundreds or thousands of thugs running it.

I believe that to complete the transition to democracy and do away with corruption (if that's even possible) will require a whole new generation of people.

For now, Putin's way is simply the least of two evils. To see that, we need to look no further than what happened under Yeltsin.

Exactly. Most Americans don't get this. Under Yeltsin the median life expectancy of male Russians dropped by years, think it may have been with as much as a decade. People were literally starving to death. Oligarch's were running rampant enriching themselves and selling off Russia's natural resources in brilliant deals for the West and crappy deals for Russia. Wall Street looted hundreds of billions of (strong) dollars out of Russia (according to Zbgniew Brzezinski).

Meanwhile the US was encouraging the smaller nations on Russia's borders to break away (funny how the US is always working to break up other nations while insisting on unity for itself). Obviously the Russian people saw all this go on and the blowback against western aggression is only natural. Putin put a stop to the Oligarch/Western looting expeditions and now the Russian GDP is three times stronger than it was under Yeltsin. Putin has taken his weakened nation and turned it into a global power. How you can criticize him for taking Russia 'backwards' is beyond me. If the West had been serious about Russian democracy it wouldn't have stuck knives in Russia's back to kill off the Russian people and make her bleed cheap oil and gold.

The West has a honeyed tongue talking democracy, but is red in tooth and claw.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: IvanAndreevich

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
What is your defiition of Communism then?

And what is Putin attempting to do?

There is no _my_ definition of communism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism And if you read that, it's pretty evident that it doesn't apply to Russia (or China). There is a lot of private ownership.

I think Putin is a power freak, but the interesting thing is that people recognize it and don't mind it. What they don't want is turmoil and corruption which was the case under Yeltsin. Russia has gotten much more prosperous under Putin, so people want to just live their lives, buy their cars, enjoy their vacations. Not risk all that in search for freedom, which under present condition, will just cause trouble.

The reason pure democracy (with unrestricted freedom of speech, etc) cannot work in Russia is corruption. Really, people pushing for a "free" Russia haven't got a clue. It's much better when Putin (one thug) is running the country as opposed to hundreds or thousands of thugs running it.

I believe that to complete the transition to democracy and do away with corruption (if that's even possible) will require a whole new generation of people.

For now, Putin's way is simply the least of two evils. To see that, we need to look no further than what happened under Yeltsin.

Exactly. Most Americans don't get this. Under Yeltsin the median life expectancy of male Russians dropped by years, think it may have been with as much as a decade. People were literally starving to death. Oligarch's were running rampant enriching themselves and selling off Russia's natural resources in brilliant deals for the West and crappy deals for Russia. Wall Street looted hundreds of billions of (strong) dollars out of Russia (according to Zbgniew Brzezinski).

Meanwhile the US was encouraging the smaller nations on Russia's borders to break away (funny how the US is always working to break up other nations while insisting on unity for itself). Obviously the Russian people saw all this go on and the blowback against western aggression is only natural. Putin put a stop to the Oligarch/Western looting expeditions and now the Russian GDP is three times stronger than it was under Yeltsin. Putin has taken his weakened nation and turned it into a global power. How you can criticize him for taking Russia 'backwards' is beyond me. If the West had been serious about Russian democracy it wouldn't have stuck knives in Russia's back to kill off the Russian people and make her bleed cheap oil and gold.

The West has a honeyed tongue talking democracy, but is red in tooth and claw.

Yes, the investments (looting) we have in Russia are now taxed.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
We may be arguing over a matter of semantics.

Putin seems to want to take Russia backwards where the government controlled everything.

To me Communism is where the State controls everything for the benefit of the State.
"Authoritarianism" is just a strong leadership of the political system, allowing the economic system to operate on its own.

What I see in Russia is that the government wants to take control of the economic system.

The people want the State to ensure that they will be taken care of no matter what the independent thought/choice may be.

Just in Russia????

 

[miketheidiot]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
We may be arguing over a matter of semantics.

Putin seems to want to take Russia backwards where the government controlled everything.

To me Communism is where the State controls everything for the benefit of the State.
"Authoritarianism" is just a strong leadership of the political system, allowing the economic system to operate on its own.

What I see in Russia is that the government wants to take control of the economic system.

The people want the State to ensure that they will be taken care of no matter what the independent thought/choice may be.

Just in Russia????

your just a little necro machine today huh?

 

[CanOWorms]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I think as far as energy is concerned, the turning point was the treatment it got after Ukraine started stealing gas and the rest of Europe bashed Russia for shutting it off.
Europeans complained that Russia wasn't a reliable energy supplier, but what they forgot is that in Russian eyes that made Europe an unreliable energy importer that would condone theft of Russia's exports for its own political reasons. That is why they are diversifying their pipelines to go to China and the east, after resisting doing so for many years. The Chinese will take all the supply they can get their hands on, no questions asked, so then Europe will not have that leverage on Russia, and Russia will no longer be forced to subsidize transit countries just to sell gas to Europe.

And American support for European energy security destroys our relationship with Russia. This must be re-evaluated.

 

[Red Dawn]

Timing's right for Obama's alternative fuel initiative. He's right, it is matter of National Security.

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Timing's right for Obama's alternative fuel initiative. He's right, it is matter of National Security.

Agreed. Without it, we won't have any national security. Under Obama's plan, if we fail to develope alternative fuels, we are screwed.

 

[JS80]

What is Russia's ideological goal?

 

[Ozoned]

Originally posted by: JS80
What is Russia's ideological goal?

They seek to be like (republican) USA.

 

[filetitan]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: Common Courtesy
Russia also needs the Western technology and resources to assist in propping up his country.

Communism only works when there is a strong government that can supply the needs of the people.
Russia can not feed its people.

So you have a trade of oil for food/technology in one way or another

What I see is Russia engendering energy dependence of Europe to get high tech weapons.
Russia fears the re-arming of China with the new Chinese tech savvy. So it plans on obtaining European weapon systems.

lol wtf, have you been hiding under a rock, do some research before you post mindless crap.
Russia arms half the world with their weapons. They have a strong track record towards producing top notch weaponry, I don't see them buying weapons made by other countries specially the UN.