Push for $15 minimum wage

[Spungo]

What's your view on incestuous relationships?

They're pretty nice as long as you have attractive relatives.

I would like to see higher minimum wage just to see what happens. If it helps poor people, that's nice. If it leads to McDonalds installing self-order computers, that's even better. There was a time when elevators had attendants. How stupid was that? It's so much better to have automated elevators to replace elevator operators. There was also a time when gas pumps were not automated, so gas stations had pump jockeys. That seems like a waste of human capital. Guys just pumping gas? The economy could put their labor to better use. Let machines do dull work, and let humans do creative work.

Any time a store has self-checkout, I use the self-checkout. Home Depot has them, and they always seem to work.

 

[UglyCasanova]

backpeddling now?

You're posts thus far in this thread have all been trolling. It's a public forum - and I certainly weird no power here - but if you can't add any serious responses it would be nice if you'd at least try not to derail the discussion with attacks on others.

Rainbows and pipe dreams I know, but this forum would benefit immensely if posters here (there's a vocal few that do the bulk of this) didn't run off others that would actually like to discuss politics or news. The tech nature of the forums brings together a lot of smart people, it's a shame this particular subforum has turn to such crap.

 

[stormkroe]

He's trolling. The qualified trades are much higher on the value scale that the "average college grad." Useless fecks.

Please accept my gratitude and these several high-fives.

 

[JSt0rm]

You're posts thus far in this thread have all been trolling. It's a public forum - and I certainly weird no power here - but if you can't add any serious responses it would be nice if you'd at least try not to derail the discussion with attacks on others.

Rainbows and pipe dreams I know, but this forum would benefit immensely if posters here (there's a vocal few that do the bulk of this) didn't run off others that would actually like to discuss politics or news. The tech nature of the forums brings together a lot of smart people, it's a shame this particular subforum has turn to such crap.

Im not derailing. You brought up automation and other stuff in your op and I responded. Its not rainbows and pipe dreams to start thinking about the next stage of the economy.

 

[Jaskalas]

I'm sorry but giving away other people's money to ease your fear that the proles will slit your throat in an uprising isn't a reason for a minimum income. First of all, I don't care if they do, either you can protect yourself or you can bribe them yourself. Secondly, we've been giving the proles free money for years via Great Society programs and their lives are more fucked up than ever. There's basically no moral or practical reason to give money to people who have done absolutely nothing to earn or deserve it.

As the world shrinks and its population explodes, fewer and fewer people believe that each man is an island, that we can pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and actually achieve an isolated success. As Bill Clinton said "we're all in this together" and that message is apparently without contest.

As the economy continues to get worse no one is going to want to be at the sole mercy of an employer who finds no value in employees. No one wants the health and security of their family locked up by some Wall Street Crony. We're not in this to compete with slave labor overseas.

The people are demanding an economic revolution the likes of which the world has never seen.

 

[elitejp]

Saw this on the NYT earlier today, their editorial board pushing Hillary to join onto $15 minimum wage.


I can't help but scratch my head at this. Econ 101 taught me that introducing a price floor on anything creates a surplus of that product, which in this case is labor (people).

Couple that with the fact that now business have a huge incentive to develop alternatives, and in this day and time the technology exists to do so. The true minimum wage is $0, and people are going to price themselves to that. There will be those that will benefit from this, but in the long run businesses will develop technologies that replace low skilled (even mid to high skilled) workers, it's inevitable.

I get that minimum wage is no way to go through life, and no you can't raise a family on it. What we should do imo is focus these people into some sort of skilled trade. Make community colleges affordable so they can learn something useful. Hell develop the skills in HS for those not college bound (and restrict college to those that should actually go to it). But putting a floor for how much you can pay someone for anything is only shooting themselves in the foot in the long run.

I'd be curious to see if anyone disagrees and their rationale if so?

I got tired of reading the stupid ramble others have posted.
Yes, a 15 dollar minimum wage for unskilled labor will either cause business owners to rethink opening because salary is so high or they will have to charge more for their product and hope sales continue as before. The reality is that many places will shut down or they will hire less people and require them to do more work. But the problem is these are unskilled/unmotivated people. If they were motivated they wouldnt be unskilled. These types of jobs can only be viewed as temporary, normally for students to have part time work while they finish studying to get a real job.
It reminds me when I was enrolling in college and these girls in front of me were complaining about how much work it would take to be a considered a full time student and graduate on time. I on the other hand had to speak to the principle and get her to allow me to take my 24 credits per semester that i enrolled in. Basically had straight A's throughout my time there. Oh and I was working 2 jobs at the time as well. One full time and another part time.

Unfortunately the way america is voting I will be carrying everyone's sorry self to make sure they can live at a level i live. In the US we call that equality, because no on wants to stand up and call it what it really is.

 

[WackyDan]

The real answer is a minimum income, free college and universal health care. Then we will be prepared for a future without work.

So in a future without work why do we need free education?

 

[sandorski]

I got tired of reading the stupid ramble others have posted.
Yes, a 15 dollar minimum wage for unskilled labor will either cause business owners to rethink opening because salary is so high or they will have to charge more for their product and hope sales continue as before. The reality is that many places will shut down or they will hire less people and require them to do more work. But the problem is these are unskilled/unmotivated people. If they were motivated they wouldnt be unskilled. These types of jobs can only be viewed as temporary, normally for students to have part time work while they finish studying to get a real job.
It reminds me when I was enrolling in college and these girls in front of me were complaining about how much work it would take to be a considered a full time student and graduate on time. I on the other hand had to speak to the principle and get her to allow me to take my 24 credits per semester that i enrolled in. Basically had straight A's throughout my time there. Oh and I was working 2 jobs at the time as well. One full time and another part time.

Unfortunately the way america is voting I will be carrying everyone's sorry self to make sure they can live at a level i live. In the US we call that equality, because no on wants to stand up and call it what it really is.

No. That has been said every single time Minimum Wages have been proposed or raised. That did not happen, ever

 

[JSt0rm]

So in a future without work why do we need free education?

I already said why. Do you want a wall-e world? No. We want people enriched via whatever they want and higher education can give them that. All of the things people hate about higher edu are the things that will have value in the future. Literature, Art studies, film studies, music. These things have a de-emphasis in todays world. In the future they wont and they will need more edu to perfect.

 

[elitejp]

No. That has been said every single time Minimum Wages have been proposed or raised. That did not happen, ever

then why not 20 or 30 dollars an hr?

Of course this is what will happen. Economics isnt hard to understand. Sooner or later rising costs will make small businesses in need of unskilled laborers see that the risk isnt worth it. So they either cut their losses and close or just dont open that venture.

You see it all the time with companies moving oversees or shutting down. Maybe the news media has selective reporting because Ive seen quite a few large companies along with mom and pop places locally decide that it just wasnt worth it to stay in business so they liquidated and got out. Leaving quite a few people unemployed.

McDs isnt a fully staffed place anymore. 20 years ago it was but now you barely have enough people to manage the place. And it is mostly automated now. (not that its a bad thing) They had to adapt to stay alive. Continue putting pressure on these small business's hiring unskilled labor and either they will find a way around it or close.

 

[ivwshane]

then why not 20 or 30 dollars an hr?

Of course this is what will happen. Economics isnt hard to understand. Sooner or later rising costs will make small businesses in need of unskilled laborers see that the risk isnt worth it. So they either cut their losses and close or just dont open that venture.

You see it all the time with companies moving oversees or shutting down. Maybe the news media has selective reporting because Ive seen quite a few large companies along with mom and pop places locally decide that it just wasnt worth it to stay in business so they liquidated and got out. Leaving quite a few people unemployed.

McDs isnt a fully staffed place anymore. 20 years ago it was but now you barely have enough people to manage the place. And it is mostly automated now. (not that its a bad thing) They had to adapt to stay alive. Continue putting pressure on these small business's hiring unskilled labor and either they will find a way around it or close.

It was already explained in this thread but apparently the facts just come across as stupid rants to you.

 

[elitejp]

yes it does come across as stupid rants because their is no point in paying someone who is unskilled and unmotivated that much money. They just arent worth it. If you want you can find some bum to rake your yard and you can give him some exorbitant amount of money and feel good about yourself because your helping out the poor. But the reality is do you still want to pay them when they do a half ass job and then complain that it was hot outside and they are tired and they think they should get more money.

Have you ever worked with lazy incompetent people? they cause more problems then solve. You have to do their work and yours or fix whatever problem they created. When I was in college we had group projects. Well forget that! Those people couldnt graduate if you gave them a diploma. So i wisely allocated my time by not working with them. They werent the types who would get anywhere in life unless it happens by accident.

America is sending jobs to other markets because the workforce here in the usa is just incompetent. The jobs left here are basically becoming highly skilled jobs and people are getting paid well for it. But these minimum wage, minimum skilled, people will in the end just be sitting at home collecting govt stipends so they dont starve to death.

I guess people just dont like the reality that your money or my lack of money is 99% related to the person you see in the mirror every morning.

 

[ivwshane]

yes it does come across as stupid rants because their is no point in paying someone who is unskilled and unmotivated that much money. They just arent worth it. If you want you can find some bum to rake your yard and you can give him some exorbitant amount of money and feel good about yourself because your helping out the poor. But the reality is do you still want to pay them when they do a half ass job and then complain that it was hot outside and they are tired and they think they should get more money.

Have you ever worked with lazy incompetent people? they cause more problems then solve. You have to do their work and yours or fix whatever problem they created. When I was in college we had group projects. Well forget that! Those people couldnt graduate if you gave them a diploma. So i wisely allocated my time by not working with them. They werent the types who would get anywhere in life unless it happens by accident.

America is sending jobs to other markets because the workforce here in the usa is just incompetent. The jobs left here are basically becoming highly skilled jobs and people are getting paid well for it. But these minimum wage, minimum skilled, people will in the end just be sitting at home collecting govt stipends so they dont starve to death.

I guess people just dont like the reality that your money or my lack of money is 99% related to the person you see in the mirror every morning.

Lazy and incompetent people exist at all levels of employment so I'm not sure exactly what your point is. Worth is also a subjective term, you may find that low level employees aren't worth it but the same could be said for top tier employees as well, so again I'm not sure what your point is.

You do appear to have some serious issues and your rant seems to stem from personal experience rather than actual data on the subject. Ironic really...when was the last time you looked in the mirror?

 

[sandorski]

yes it does come across as stupid rants because their is no point in paying someone who is unskilled and unmotivated that much money. They just arent worth it. If you want you can find some bum to rake your yard and you can give him some exorbitant amount of money and feel good about yourself because your helping out the poor. But the reality is do you still want to pay them when they do a half ass job and then complain that it was hot outside and they are tired and they think they should get more money.

Have you ever worked with lazy incompetent people? they cause more problems then solve. You have to do their work and yours or fix whatever problem they created. When I was in college we had group projects. Well forget that! Those people couldnt graduate if you gave them a diploma. So i wisely allocated my time by not working with them. They werent the types who would get anywhere in life unless it happens by accident.

America is sending jobs to other markets because the workforce here in the usa is just incompetent. The jobs left here are basically becoming highly skilled jobs and people are getting paid well for it. But these minimum wage, minimum skilled, people will in the end just be sitting at home collecting govt stipends so they dont starve to death.

I guess people just dont like the reality that your money or my lack of money is 99% related to the person you see in the mirror every morning.

How much are they worth?

 

[elitejp]

I don't have a silver bullet unfortunately. The search to provide for the needs of the people has been the fundamental question for the entire existence of humanity. I guess the start to even begin to discuss it might be to define what are the needs? At the very core it would be making sure everyone has adequate food, water, and shelter in order to keep them alive. Past that it is an open question.

Thank you for the response though and I welcome an actual discussion (hopefully with minimal "typical lib always wanting free shit" or "ignorant conservatives out of touch with reality" type responses).

I ran a business overseas (restaurant) for a number of years where they dont have minimum wage. But that doesnt mean that you will find good employees for pennies on the dollar. The market still dictates what kind of employees you can hire. The market still sets the price even though there is no national minimum. The more you pay the more likely you recieve a better employee, so salary is negotiated.

 

[michal1980]

How much are they worth?

Its not what the people are worth. Its what the job is worth.

 

[elitejp]

Its not what the people are worth. Its what the job is worth.

Half true. Its both. If the job is too tiring or requires too much the prospective employee wouldn't accept a low pay and the the employer wouldn't be able to hire the staff he needs until he raised the incentive.
On the other hand if the prospective employee wanted too much pay/salary than the employer would look elsewhere.

 

[boomerang]

As has been stated by myself and others though, there needs to be something that provides for the Needs of People. The Minimum Wage is just one method of doing it. It's fine to not like the Minimum Wage, but what do you like?

Whose needs aren't being met? Food, clothing and shelter are what are needed to sustain life. What percentage of the citizens of the U.S. are not getting those needs met?

 

[1prophet]

How much are they worth?

What are you as the end consumer willing to pay?

 

[bozack]

No. That has been said every single time Minimum Wages have been proposed or raised. That did not happen, ever

Difference being then the technology did not exist to displace low skill workers, and even when it did it wasn't cost effective, now its quite simple to implement systems which will remove said workers from the equation

I already said why. Do you want a wall-e world? No. We want people enriched via whatever they want and higher education can give them that. All of the things people hate about higher edu are the things that will have value in the future. Literature, Art studies, film studies, music. These things have a de-emphasis in todays world. In the future they wont and they will need more edu to perfect.

We will end up with one if we follow the path which you speak of, people are inherently lazy on the whole and if given no necessity to work wont....further there are some/many who just can't function in the manner which you refer to, what do we do with them?

 

[soulcougher73]

I dont think a national min wage can work as it varies how far $15 would go place by place. But i get the idea behind it needing to be higher. I think someone working a full time job min wage job should be able to afford a basic 1 bedroom apartment and a cheap car payment and adaquete food to survive and healthcare. Nothing fancy but to be able to do that without any further government assistance.

Right now min wage is so low most are also on gov. assistance which i think should be a no/no for someone working a job.

I dont know the right answer but what we have now isnt working either, so time to change it up and try a new approach.

 

[soulcougher73]

You are thinking about today. Im talking about tomorrow. It is confusing for you because your brain is rigid and slow.

It is funny watching people try to speak that cant think past the current world we live in. I don't know how they go about their day to day lives. Such scum. I get tired of scraping these "in the way" people off my boots every night.

But seriously, it is like talking to a 2 year old sometimes with their simple minds that cant see past today.

 

[sandorski]

Difference being then the technology did not exist to displace low skill workers, and even when it did it wasn't cost effective, now its quite simple to implement systems which will remove said workers from the equation



We will end up with one if we follow the path which you speak of, people are inherently lazy on the whole and if given no necessity to work wont....further there are some/many who just can't function in the manner which you refer to, what do we do with them?

True enough. Which is why the status quo isn't working. Even at current Wages many of those Jobs are being replaced and Wages are being forced down. At some point the Worker is no longer able to both Work and Survive.

 

[glenn1]

As the $15/hour proposal is currently imagined not only would I oppose it but so should everyone else, especially Democrats and progressives. It makes no practical or moral sense to pay a 16 year old high school kid or adult without any professional skills or behaviors a wage like that. If anything the minimum wage ought to be well below where it is now and raise with tenure. That will both allow employers to risk taking on people who likely won't be a good job fit because the won't show up to work on time, follow policy, etc.

How this works is a new "min wage" hire gets started low, say $5/hour. For each tenure period you raise the wage some. Say 50 cents per month or $1 per calendar quarter. Then after 3-5 years of tenure then you're getting the "full" minimum wage of $15/ hour or whatever. The tenure required and top wage can be negotiated in the political process.

Basically we want to incent and reward employees to learn and adopt the skills and attributes employers want and will help them to move forward in an actual career. We want to invent and reward employers for hiring marginal candidates and keeping them for long enough to develop skills valuable to their career.

 

[elitejp]

I dont think a national min wage can work as it varies how far $15 would go place by place. But i get the idea behind it needing to be higher. I think someone working a full time job min wage job should be able to afford a basic 1 bedroom apartment and a cheap car payment and adaquete food to survive and healthcare. Nothing fancy but to be able to do that without any further government assistance.

Right now min wage is so low most are also on gov. assistance which i think should be a no/no for someone working a job.

I dont know the right answer but what we have now isnt working either, so time to change it up and try a new approach.

I think its that expectations need to be changed. You shouldnt work a minimum wage job and expect to make rent, make car payments and have extra necessities all paid in full.
You must accept that your lifestyle will not be the same as someone else who has worked himself out of a minimum wage job. Someone who now has value in the market. Being willing to work 60-80 hrs a week, having roommates to help out with rent and giving up eating out or going to the movies or buying designer clothes or the new iphone is what someone who is working minimum wage needs to accept.
And if society left it like this it would be enough motivation for most people to do something about it and either study harder, or get trained in a trade or just work up from a common laboror to a shift manager, to a store manager to a district manager etc. Giving people something for nothing will not motivate them to change the ways that have led them to poverty to begin with.