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Push for $15 minimum wage

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realibrad said:
Are you saying my dad should risk legal action by hiring someone under the table?
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You dont really know how the world works do you?

SMOGZINN said:
No, but he is quite capable of telling the kids that he needs to have the shop cleaned and he will willing to pay $n for the task. The kids is then a 1099 independent contractor, that he is not paying, but instead paying for a job. Just like when I hire tree trimmers to cut down a tree I don't ask how many man hours they are going to need to do it to be sure that it pays them minimum wage.
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All of this.
 
Meh, I'm tired of arguing about it. Raise the minimum wage already, and let the chips fall where they may.

I expect an increase in the push for automation, self service kiosks, etc., but I guess we'll find out.
 
Where does the government draw the line between a contractor and an under-the-table hiree? When there is no paperwork involved, they appear to be the same thing.
 
Spungo said:
Where does the government draw the line between a contractor and an under-the-table hiree? When there is no paperwork involved, they appear to be the same thing.
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realibrad said:
You are supposed to risk your business and find out.
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There are specific tests to tell you which one a worker is. The most important of them is do you control When, Where, or How the employee works. If you control all three of these he is definitely a employee and not a contractor. If you control some, but not all, of these then we get into the secondary questions; how central to your business is the work to be done, who supplies the tools to do the work, how often the work is needed to be done, and a few more.

For the most part it is not that hard to determine if they are a contractor of an employee. If you make polished widgets and they are the widget polisher, even if they only do it one day a month, they are probably an employee.
 
The biggest benefit I see from the push for $15/hr is that it most likely will be remembered in history as one of various means to expedite the inevitable UBI scenario technology-driven automation is rapidly forcing civilization to approach.

So, as far as means to an end.. acceptable.
 
I wouldn't worry about the federal minimum, conservatives. It ain't budging a single cent from $7.25 anytime soon all while businesses can depress wages through collusion and the threat of offshoring through free trade.
 
Bring on the automation.

What about the migrants who pick the crops? Are they going to get $15 an hour as well? Am I going to have to pay $20 for a carton of strawberries? What about the gas pumpers in NJ? I didn't know pumping gas was a full time profession now. Hell, let's give these guys $30 an hour!

You know, you can't rely on the government to help you out forever. If I were at a dead end job, I'd you know...

Better myself.
Learn a few skills.
Take on a second job.
Delay having children.
Watch how I spend my income.
Save, invest, etc?
Work my ass off.

It's sad that immigrants are 8x more likely than native born Americans to become millionaires. They don't rely on the US government. They become sufficient. They rely on working hard and smart. So, go ahead. Rely on the government. Even if Bernie wins he's not going to do much. He's not going to change your life around. Only you can do that.

I love this quote by Jim Rohn:

"You don't get paid for the hour. You get paid for the value you bring to the hour."

What kind of value is a fast food worker bringing to work that is justified that they should get $15 an hour? What about anyone working at a low skill job. What value are they bringing into their job that would justify $15 an hour? Also, are they going to work harder and take on more responsibility. With more money comes responsibility. The answer is no. Most are going to bitch and complain. Let's be real.
 
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Spungo said:
Where does the government draw the line between a contractor and an under-the-table hiree? When there is no paperwork involved, they appear to be the same thing.
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When they get hurt on the job and file for workers comp & disability or go to the unemployment office when you fire/lay them off, then the fun begins.
 
Mai72 said:
Bring on the automation.

What about the migrants who pick the crops? Are they going to get $15 an hour as well? Am I going to have to pay $20 for a carton of strawberries? What about the gas pumpers in NJ? I didn't know pumping gas was a full time profession now. Hell, let's give these guys $30 an hour!

You know, you can't rely on the government to help you out forever. If I were at a dead end job, I'd you know...

Better myself.
Learn a few skills.
Take on a second job.
Delay having children.
Watch how I spend my income.
Save, invest, etc?
Work my ass off.

It's sad that immigrants are 8x more likely than native born Americans to become millionaires. They don't rely on the US government. They become sufficient. They rely on working hard and smart. So, go ahead. Rely on the government. Even if Bernie wins he's not going to do much. He's not going to change your life around. Only you can do that.

I love this quote by Jim Rohn:

"You don't get paid for the hour. You get paid for the value you bring to the hour."

What kind of value is a fast food worker bringing to work that is justified that they should get $15 an hour? What about anyone working at a low skill job. What value are they bringing into their job that would justify $15 an hour? Also, are they going to work harder and take on more responsibility. With more money comes responsibility. The answer is no. Most are going to bitch and complain. Let's be real.
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But that's unfair. These unskilled people who never took the time to get skilled and slacked off all their life deserve to live just a good a life as everyone else as long as we take the money from those rich people who actually made something of their life.

I always say this. Poor people aren't poor because of me.
 
elitejp said:
But that's unfair. These unskilled people who never took the time to get skilled and slacked off all their life deserve to live just a good a life as everyone else as long as we take the money from those rich people who actually made something of their life.

I always say this. Poor people aren't poor because of me.
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A minimum income does not mean they have as good a life as someone who is successful.
 
SMOGZINN said:
There are specific tests to tell you which one a worker is. The most important of them is do you control When, Where, or How the employee works. If you control all three of these he is definitely a employee and not a contractor. If you control some, but not all, of these then we get into the secondary questions; how central to your business is the work to be done, who supplies the tools to do the work, how often the work is needed to be done, and a few more.
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My brother works as a contractor for an engineering firm, but his work is indistinguishable from that of an employee. He works at the firm's office, he uses one of the firm's computers, and he is required to be there during regular hours.
One of my former coworkers was a contractor. I didn't know that until after he left the company. He had a company login, company email, company computer, showed up at the same time as everyone else. He had a nice desk near the window, so I jacked his spot when he left. I think the main difference was that contractors do not get things like health insurance or pension contributions through the company, and his pay wasn't hourly.

Without any paperwork, I'm not sure how one would tell the difference. It might need to be fought in court. Either the kid is a contractor and he's breaking the law by not reporting his income, or the kid is an under the table employee and the business owner is breaking the law by not reporting his income.
I'm sure the government doesn't care about this case, but it would be nice to know who is breaking which laws, or if any laws are being broken at all.
 
elitejp said:
But that's unfair. These unskilled people who never took the time to get skilled and slacked off all their life deserve to live just a good a life as everyone else as long as we take the money from those rich people who actually made something of their life.

I always say this. Poor people aren't poor because of me.
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To be fair the cost of living has gotten worse over the last 20 years. I don't know how some people do it. Even an educated person making a decent salary is going to have a difficult time. Especially when you throw children into the mix.
 
JSt0rm said:
Let people go to college and maybe find a passion or not. Its free so who cares. Its built into the system. In a future without work, Id rather have some people be creative over their lives then learn how to stop a leak.

The rest can play videogames and watch tv/movies for the rest of their lives.
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You keep using the word "free" as if you had some understanding of what the word means...
 
Spungo said:
My brother works as a contractor for an engineering firm, but his work is indistinguishable from that of an employee. He works at the firm's office, he uses one of the firm's computers, and he is required to be there during regular hours.
One of my former coworkers was a contractor. I didn't know that until after he left the company. He had a company login, company email, company computer, showed up at the same time as everyone else. He had a nice desk near the window, so I jacked his spot when he left. I think the main difference was that contractors do not get things like health insurance or pension contributions through the company, and his pay wasn't hourly.
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There is a difference between a 1099 contractor and someone that is on contract from another company, which is what you are almost certainly talking about. A 1099 Contractor would not get a W2 from anyone but would instead be given a 1099 form at the end of his year. If what you are saying is true, and he was given a 1099, then the company was doing something illegal and he would be in his rights to report them. The report would be taken very seriously because if true the company is committing tax fraud.

Without any paperwork, I'm not sure how one would tell the difference.
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The company must report his pay to the IRS, either with a 1099 or a W2. There is always paperwork, and it is the company that has to decide which to file. The company is the one breaking the law.
 
Mai72 said:
To be fair the cost of living has gotten worse over the last 20 years. I don't know how some people do it. Even an educated person making a decent salary is going to have a difficult time. Especially when you throw children into the mix.
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It's worth mentioning that there is a meaningful difference in cost of living between certain areas of the country.
 
SMOGZINN said:
If what you are saying is true, and he was given a 1099, then the company was doing something illegal and he would be in his rights to report them. The report would be taken very seriously because if true the company is committing tax fraud.
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I'm not sure how that would be tax fraud. The company pays the guy, that guy reports his income to the government, and he gets taxed on the income he reported. If he chooses not to report his income, that would be his own problem, not the company's problem.


The company must report his pay to the IRS, either with a 1099 or a W2.
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I think it would just get reported as a business expense, similar to calling a plumber to fix the toilet. The contractor would need to give an invoice, and the company would use that invoice to get the tax deduction. It's assumed the contractor would report that invoice as his income, so he would be the one paying taxes on it. If that contractor happens to be Wesley Snipes, he won't pay tax on it, and he'll get sent to prison for a while.


Now that I think about it, I'm not really sure why it would be illegal for a company to pay people under the table. Without any invoice or pay stub to prove that someone was paid, that money would appear on the company's balance sheet as profit, so the company would need to pay tax on that money. The employee would not pay income tax on that money, but the employer would, so the money gets taxed regardless or how it changed hands.

edit: Mentioning the words balance sheet made me understand why this is important. The last thing anyone wants is corporations having inaccurate balance sheets saying they have X amount of profit but that money doesn't really exist because it was paid out to undocumented employees. We had a lot of financial reforms after 1929 so companies have very strict guidelines when it comes to financial reporting.
 
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JSt0rm said:
U a simple bitch.



People would go to college to enrich their lives not learn how to be a cog.



The trimming drone will do it. Did you download the shapes you wanted for your bushes and load them into the drone? The drone is doing the entire neighborhood.
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The tree trimming drone is already here!

1427996658-drone-tree-1.gif


(Jamie Hyneman of Mythbusters fame decided to mount a rotary blade to a $3000 DJI Inspire 1, because)
 
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