There is no solution other than the parents being better parents as well as putting more stock into our education system. Trust me. It is not the other adults "thinking like helpless turds". They are powerless to do anything regardless of the law.
There is no solution other than the parents being better parents as well as putting more stock into our education system. Trust me. It is not the other adults "thinking like helpless turds". They are powerless to do anything regardless of the law.
QueBert
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2002
- 22,980
- 1,178
- 126
exactly, the bad shit I did was way worse than what my father did, and the bad shit he did was was worse than what his father did. I'm sure if I ever had a son he will do shit way worse than what I did. And I'll tell you now, my parents were good parents, and their parents were good parents. Some kids are just kids. By today's standards what I did was nothing, but back in 85 I was the kid adults were talking about wanting to slap or punch.
It's natural progression, times change and the shit my son does will be nothing compared to what his son does.
EMPshockwave82
Diamond Member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 3,012
- 2
- 0
They are powerless to do anything BECAUSE of the law. If you touch the kid then you just assaulted a minor. The little shit didnt break any laws but he did something socially unacceptable. He deserves to be smacked across the mouth or humiliated if even for a moment so that he doesnt do it again. As it stands right now he's probably bragging to his friends that he scared the crap out of some guy in the store.
He ran away and the OP in some ways made it worse by attempting to chase the kid. That being said, I probably would have run after the damn kid too. It's everyone's first instinct to be scared, jump 10 feet in the air and then be angry that it happened.
Parents being better parents is the solution, you are right. The problem exists because when the parents are not around, children still do things that are wrong. Because of the law we can do nothing, yet they are occasionally entitled to a little lesson. You just have to be careful as to how that lesson is delt.
Each situation is different so there is not one thing I can say but humiliation usually works really well.
MagnusTheBrewer
IN MEMORIAM
- Jun 19, 2004
- 24,122
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That is incorrect. Society, with or without the help of the parents, defines what is acceptable. You want to blame the parents, so do I, and all the other adults who don't want to get involved because of possible reprisals or litigation.
Why should we let kids, who for the most part are testing boundaries, define what is acceptable in our society? Is fear of litigation greater than the desire to live in a peaceful society?
Well, I am happy that the law is like that quite frankly. I can assure you that my kid would never pull a stunt like that but if he did then I wouldn't want some other random adult to take a pop shot at him for doing it. I don't believe that is the right course of action to take as a means of discipline and I do not want other adults to feel as if they can do it without serious consequence. I don't mind if they yell at and lecture him though. Even if you disagree with me, it all seems perfectly fine until the law allows people to do things to your kids which you do not want them to do.
Blaming society really isn't going to help change anything. Technically, everything that is wrong in this country can be blamed on "society". What we can and can't do as well as how effective proposed solutions would actually be is what counts.
EMPshockwave82
Diamond Member
- Jul 7, 2003
- 3,012
- 2
- 0
I agree with you.
The law protects people from randomly punching children because they feel like it and that definately is a good thing. If I had a child I would also want someone to stop him and hold him accountable for what he had done because he was being a little prick.
I never said I agree with punching children. I think humiliation works much better than physical threats.
MagnusTheBrewer
IN MEMORIAM
- Jun 19, 2004
- 24,122
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So, you think your kids right not to be slapped is greater than an adults right to be left in peace? How did we get to the point where children not only have the same rights as adults but, in this case supercede those of adults?
I think you better warn your kids to stay away from this old codger.
As for the law, it provides penalties for those convicted of crimes. Laws change as does society and using laws as a map for guiding society is putting the cart before the horse.
Again, it all seems fine until the law allows people to do something that you disagree with to your kids...
The rights of the child in this story are not superseding that of the rights of an adult. There is no law against being rude and if they are disturbing the peace then they can legally be escorted off of the premises. Adults do not have the right to slap other adults if they are disturbing the peace either. Isn't the idea of raising a child to teach them to be responsible and respectable adults? How can we achieve that by slapping them whenever they do something wrong if we do not expect adults to do that to each other when they do something wrong? Besides, a child who is acting like the one in this story being slapped by a stranger rarely teaches them anything. It usually only makes them angry....like it would most adults if you slapped them for being rude. Go figure!
MagnusTheBrewer
IN MEMORIAM
- Jun 19, 2004
- 24,122
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You're right adults do not have the right to slap other adults but, it happens. A child who acts like the punk in the OP's case didn't just wake up and say to himself, "Hey, I'll just go down to the store and yell at an adult to see what happens." In other words, had this happened to me, I would have backhanded him because it's obvious that none of societies other clues prior to this made the requisite impression. I hope it would make them more fearful than angry but, there you have it. I'm willing to accept the consequences are your kids?
Somehow, I don't think you are willing to accept the actual consequences which is a number of years in prison if you are convicted guilty of physical child abuse. In my state, that will bag you somewhere between 2-5 years depending on the judge. Not to mention your record is now screwed for life.
Even after all of that, you still would not have taught a kid like that a lesson. Kids like that do not learn from such lessons. All you would have done is make his face sting for a little bit and piss him off for maybe the rest of the day. Therefore, your reasoning for doing it is completely worthless because it accomplishes nothing other than satisfy you emotionally for a short period of time. Not worth it even in the slightest.
Do you have children?
MagnusTheBrewer
IN MEMORIAM
- Jun 19, 2004
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I truly doubt that slapping the punk in the OP's post would result in a conviction of child abuse, it would more likely be assault. Teaching the child would not be my intent but, providing a clear link between disturbing my peace and being slapped would.
I do have children and they made mistakes like most kids. I would have no problem with a stranger reacting as I have described had they been so foolish as to act like the punk in the OP. Before the public schools lost their minds over 'risk management,' I personally told my kid's teachers in front of them that the teachers had my blessing to discipline them as they saw fit.
I think all it would do is provoke the child to be more violent more often. You are teaching him that if someone bothers you then it is ok to physically harm them in response and that is not a good thing. Next thing you know this kid will be violent towards someone else, the story will hit the news, and you will say something like, "Damn kids! They should be taught a lesson! Blah blah blah. Hate hate hate."
Also, trust me. It is child abuse. I was just apart of a jury where one of the charges that we nailed the bastard for was physical child abuse. Another charge was aggravated assault. Did you know that in some states you do not even have to physically harm a child in order to be convicted guilty of physical child abuse? Look it up. You can also be charged with both physical child abuse and assault though. Both of which result in you getting hit with prison time even when convicted individually.
***EDIT***
Also, I respect your right to discipline your children the way you see fit. Likewise, I expect you to provide me with the same respect. I expect you to obey the law. I do not want you or anyone else hitting my kids unless it an act of self defense. Otherwise, you are a criminal and I will go after you like one.
MagnusTheBrewer
IN MEMORIAM
- Jun 19, 2004
- 24,122
- 1,594
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It might provoke the child to be more violent if that was the only reinforcement he received. My point is that as adults, we should hold children accountable for their actions.
If you can not see major differences in the OP's case and the case you sat on then, I question if you understood the directions given to you. Otherwise, all hope of changing our society really is lost.
Holding children accountable for their actions is fine. How one goes about doing that is the issue here.
The difference between the OP's case and the case I sat on is apparent, but the law is the law and I am telling you that what you suggest is physical child abuse and possibly assault. I am very familiar with those laws as a result of the case I sat on. I did extensive study to ensure that I made the right decision.
MagnusTheBrewer
IN MEMORIAM
- Jun 19, 2004
- 24,122
- 1,594
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Human beings are at their core animals. We aspire to and sometimes achieve great things in all conceivable fields. I believe that the heart of our disagreement stems from your apparent belief that physical force should never be used to discipline, teach or, curb bad behavior.
It is my belief that the complexities of society stem from the abstract reasoning that adults are supposedly capable of but children, demonstrably, are not. What other means is natural for the human animal to use if not force or, the threat of it? We can argue right and wrong all day but, in the end...warn your kids to behave around this old codger.
Squisher
Lifer
- Aug 17, 2000
- 21,204
- 66
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I think I would have had an uncontrollable reflex reaction to elbow anyone in the face that was screaming in my ear.
"I'm sorry Your Honor, it was done totally without any forethought and was a purely instinctual self-defense reaction. I would think the child was trying to elicit a response and he should know that something like this could happen if he screams in someones ear."
"I'm sorry Your Honor, it was done totally without any forethought and was a purely instinctual self-defense reaction. I would think the child was trying to elicit a response and he should know that something like this could happen if he screams in someones ear."
playing devil's advocate, by not creating any type of consequence to the child's actions, it encourages the child to resume his behavior and exerting his control via unwarranted rudeness
sufficient consequences need to be meted out for behavior, and for a child his age, the responsibility for correction and control is his parents
unfortunately, there are many people out there ill fit to be deemed a father or mother
Not everyone learns from physical discipline and it is a very situational thing. If they learn nothing productive then there is no point and you are also at risk of doing something which might be counter productive.
I am ok with very mild and very situation based physical discipline performed by the parents when they are at a young age. I don't see the point in doing it to a 12 year old because I do not believe it will solve any problems. However, the most important thing that you and I differ upon here is that I highly disagree with another adult physically disciplining my child without my permission. That is against the law and I will go after you like a criminal for doing so if you did that to my boy because the law states that is exactly what you are for taking such action on another person's child. I expect you to respect me, but even more so I expect you to obey the law.
I never said anything about not creating consequences. I believe there should be consequences. I stated earlier that I would be perfectly fine with another adult lecturing my child in that situation or being escorted off of the premises by those in charge for disturbing the peace in a public area. I am not ok with anyone else physically harming my child as a means of discipline or for any other reason with exception of self defense. Thankfully, the law is on my side with that one.
let it go? Are you serious. That is the problem with society. If his parents are going to control him, you while not allowed to swat his ass with a cricket bat, you can unload a verbal tirad upon him and let him know how much his parents have failed at raising him and that if he continues along this current course of actions he will never be anything better than a cashier or mop boy at that supermarket. then remind him that as an adult such actions are frowned upon an are capable of causing someone to beat his ass into oblivion.
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