PSU Solution for extreme high end?

[Arkaign]

I got to thinking about the limitations of current ATX spec, and the problems the 5970 and presumably the dual-GPU next-gen Nvidia part (which may suffer even more considering the larger die area) are having coming in within the spec.

It would be somewhat inconvenient for those who like to move their PCs around, but I doubt very many people do with extreme high-end multi-GPU configs .. but :

How about a spec comes out for an external supplemental GPU PSU brick? Yeah it'd be a PITA, and another set of wires and nonsense to put up with.

It might be an interim solution until the real internal specs are cleared up to allow for higher-powered GPUs to be used.

Honestly the whole thing is a PITA, it seems the envelope keeps getting pushed forward, and for all of our progress, the high-end systems just keep taking more and more juice to run. I remember when SLI'd 6800 Ultras would run fine on a decent 450W Antec PSU, along with mutliple HDDs, a DVDRW, etc. Now to run a really high end system you need 1000W+ for the dual 5970s, triple SLI, etc.

 

[happy medium]

You mean like this?

http://www.dragonsteelmods.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10923&Itemid=1

 

[Enigmatic]

Well, dual 5970s is four GPUs, so the comparison isn't entirely fair. But I think there definitely is going to be a greater push for better 'performance per watt' as the general population seems to favour mobile devices more and more (smartphones, netbooks, laptops, etc). As battery life becomes more and more paramount and HD video becomes more pervasive, having a decent gpu that gives you good battery life is key. I have a feeling this will be reflected in the enthusiast market as well (like comparing the 4870X2 to a 5870, equivalent performance for less power).

I don't think an external power supply will ever really catch. I'm sure it exists (as happy medium mentioned). But pushing power envelopes is not in the best interest of anyone.

Nonetheless, Fermi pretty much goes against all this. Can't imagine a Fermi based GPU in a laptop...

 

[zerocool84]

Well yea but your analogy for the 6800 Ultras is not good cus before that, top of the line systems used less power as well so those 6800's needed a ton of power compared to what was before it. It's just how things go. We want faster and faster things and it'll need more power.

 

[Qbah]

You mean like this?

http://www.dragonsteelmods.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10923&Itemid=1

Wow, this thing looks really nice! Since once I get me a new graphics card and OC my Q9450 to the limit I was wondering if the HX520 will be enough. Got 4 HDDs (one external), a DVD and 5 fans with a front panel (Nexus at low voltage). Also the X-Fi also has its own front panel. Will be adding a SSD eventually too. I just hope this or a similar solution is very quiet

Actually, I hope I won't need it in the end. But if I do, knowing there's such a thing available will help Then again, getting a better PSU is also an easy way out (needs to be QUIET though )

 

[Arkaign]

Wow, this thing looks really nice! Since once I get me a new graphics card and OC my Q9450 to the limit I was wondering if the HX520 will be enough. Got 4 HDDs (one external), a DVD and 5 fans with a front panel (Nexus at low voltage). Also the X-Fi also has its own front panel. Will be adding a SSD eventually too. I just hope this or a similar solution is very quiet

Actually, I hope I won't need it in the end. But if I do, knowing there's such a thing available will help Then again, getting a better PSU is also an easy way out (needs to be QUIET though )

That's very interesting! Thanks for the link Happy Medium!

 

[waffleironhead]

You mean like this?

http://www.dragonsteelmods.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10923&Itemid=1

Yeah, I've got something like that

http://www.thermaltakeusa.com/product/Power/PurePower/w0099/w0099.asp

It was ~50 bucks from newegg.

 

[zerocool84]

Wow, this thing looks really nice! Since once I get me a new graphics card and OC my Q9450 to the limit I was wondering if the HX520 will be enough. Got 4 HDDs (one external), a DVD and 5 fans with a front panel (Nexus at low voltage). Also the X-Fi also has its own front panel. Will be adding a SSD eventually too. I just hope this or a similar solution is very quiet

Actually, I hope I won't need it in the end. But if I do, knowing there's such a thing available will help Then again, getting a better PSU is also an easy way out (needs to be QUIET though )

But the thing with that is for the cost of this thing, you could buy a whole new good quality PSU. Also there's no way you're maxing out your HX520 unless you go SLI/X-Fire.

 

[nitromullet]

This is a bit off topic, but another thing about the ATX spec that has to be considered is whether or not your outlet will actually be safely able to provide the power to meet the spec.

watts = volts x amp

So, for your standard US 120V/15A breaker the theoretical max is 1800W. Factor in 80% efficiency, and that drops down to 1440W max. This is why 1000-1200 PSUs have become the standard for "high power" PSUs... Anything rated much higher is just marketing regardless of the components inside the PSU.

Then take into consideration that you probably will want to run more than just your PC tower off of a single breaker, and you could see why increasing power consumption isn't really possible indefinitely regardless of the ATX spec or any add on PSUs you have.

edit: If you really want to know more about this stuff, post in the PSU sub forum. AT has some really knowledgeable folks that post over there.

 

[Painman]

Specs evolve to meet needs, not the other way around. Like Nitromullet said, there are other limits, but we're not quite to the point of setting a standard household AC outlet on fire.

I'm not so sure about external bricks, because they don't necessarily answer the problem of standard household power delivery (that's one standard that might *not* evolve to acommodate a high-powered PC). A single room (or more) in a house might very well be powered from the same 15A fuse/breaker. Turn off your PC before you attempt to run your vacuum cleaner.

I think the PC Biz has plans for higher power specs... just look at a 5970 PCB and all of its unused power leads/VDDC slave pads. Using them now would break specs, but perhaps not an emergent one.

 

[Lonyo]

External power bricks.

7800GT X2 with external power brick.

 

[Jacky60]

I'd go for the Enermax 1250W -90% efficiency and xfire 5970 certified-it's what I got. Now just waiting on 5970 to show up. It should keep you going in any forseeable future and have juice to spare-I have about 10 old psu's sitting about-wish I'd gone high end from the start!

 

[frostedflakes]

I don't know if power is so much an issue as heat is. 300+ watt is a lot of heat to dissipate for a dual-slot video card.

 

[Jd007]

They should build a power generator into the ultra high-end graphics cards to generate electricity from the excess heat, then feed it back into the card to reduce the power requirements.

 

[Arkaign]

I don't know if power is so much an issue as heat is. 300+ watt is a lot of heat to dissipate for a dual-slot video card.

We need TRIPLE SLOT lol

Or put all of the display connectors on a dongle, then use the saved space for an air intake into a sealed area where the heatsink/ramsinks are, then use the other slot for air exhaust. With a thick plastic shroud around the internal area, it should prevent almost all heat from being dissipated inside the case.

 

[blanketyblank]

I don't know about all of you, but I'm extremely interested in how the 5830 external graphics platform works. If that can provide anything close to the performance of a desktop 5830 I'm definitely getting one.
Heat is no problem since it's housed outside. Power is no longer a problem since it has its own power. Even space isn't a problem since its external so it can even work with a laptop. All I really need to know now is speed, price, and what connector it needs exactly.
I imagine if they can start chaining those together somehow you could have trifire laptops that started out with an intel IGP.

 

[Seero]

This is a bit off topic, but another thing about the ATX spec that has to be considered is whether or not your outlet will actually be safely able to provide the power to meet the spec.

watts = volts x amp

So, for your standard US 120V/15A breaker the theoretical max is 1800W. Factor in 80% efficiency, and that drops down to 1440W max. This is why 1000-1200 PSUs have become the standard for "high power" PSUs... Anything rated much higher is just marketing regardless of the components inside the PSU.

Then take into consideration that you probably will want to run more than just your PC tower off of a single breaker, and you could see why increasing power consumption isn't really possible indefinitely regardless of the ATX spec or any add on PSUs you have.

edit: If you really want to know more about this stuff, post in the PSU sub forum. AT has some really knowledgeable folks that post over there.

I am a layman when it comes to electricity. I never understand how can people go 4xCF. I have multiple PC in my room and all sockets in my room appears to connect to one breaker. If I want to use 2 1000watt PSU + one 500 watt PSU, must I add a new line (or 2) to the main electricity box to avoid potential problems? Sorry for the mis-use for terminology.

 

[Jd007]

I don't know about all of you, but I'm extremely interested in how the 5830 external graphics platform works.

Yeah why haven't the graphics companies done that already? Even for desktops. I mean think about it, just have PCI-E slot add-on card that plugs into the motherboard slot, providing a backside port with PCI-E bandwidth, and make external graphics cards that use that port and its own power supply.

Then the case would run much cooler as a large heat source is now outside. And we wouldn't need 1000000 jiggawatt PSUs for multi-GPU setups. Plus upgrading is easy, just unplug old card and plug in new one (maybe driver installation), don't even have to open case.

 

[Arkaign]

Yeah why haven't the graphics companies done that already? Even for desktops. I mean think about it, just have PCI-E slot add-on card that plugs into the motherboard slot, providing a backside port with PCI-E bandwidth, and make external graphics cards that use that port and its own power supply.

Then the case would run much cooler as a large heat source is now outside. And we wouldn't need 1000000 jiggawatt PSUs for multi-GPU setups. Plus upgrading is easy, just unplug old card and plug in new one (maybe driver installation), don't even have to open case.

I think there's a latency issue when you extend connectors to that degree. I'm not sure how many traces are necessary for 1 16X PCI-E 2.0 slot, but that would be quite a lot I think. Tech gets better all the time. I wonder what connection the external 5830 will use, USB 3?

 

[Jd007]

I think there's a latency issue when you extend connectors to that degree. I'm not sure how many traces are necessary for 1 16X PCI-E 2.0 slot, but that would be quite a lot I think. Tech gets better all the time. I wonder what connection the external 5830 will use, USB 3?

I don't think so. USB 3.0 is over an order of magnitude slower than PCI-E 2.0 16x. A 5830 on that would be crippled to an integrated GPU or worse.

 

[Arkaign]

I don't think so. USB 3.0 is over an order of magnitude slower than PCI-E 2.0 16x. A 5830 on that would be crippled to an integrated GPU or worse.

Hmm, I wonder how they expect people to use it then? Some kind of header off of a PCI-E slot? That puts laptop owners out of the picture.

EDIT : N/m ..

http://www.legitreviews.com/news/7112/

It's a proprietary external PCI-E connection, designed for notebooks.

http://www.legitreviews.com/news/7112/

So it puts all CURRENT notebooks out of the picture, and will be compatible with ones with a new XGP port. I guess there was really no other way.

Guess you could add an XGP port to a desktop with an add-in card, but I doubt people would bother.

EDIT 2 : Yeah I looked up USB 3, it's 500MB (not mb) / sec, which is identical to a PCI-E 2.0 X1 connection. Bleh. Great for HDD, terrible for video.

 

[Lonyo]

Hmm, I wonder how they expect people to use it then? Some kind of header off of a PCI-E slot? That puts laptop owners out of the picture.

EDIT : N/m ..

http://www.legitreviews.com/news/7112/

It's a proprietary external PCI-E connection, designed for notebooks.

http://www.legitreviews.com/news/7112/

So it puts all CURRENT notebooks out of the picture, and will be compatible with ones with a new XGP port. I guess there was really no other way.

Guess you could add an XGP port to a desktop with an add-in card, but I doubt people would bother.

EDIT 2 : Yeah I looked up USB 3, it's 500MB (not mb) / sec, which is identical to a PCI-E 2.0 X1 connection. Bleh. Great for HDD, terrible for video.

Actually XGP has been around a while, it's just not very common or popular, because it's a rather niche product (for obvious reasons).
Some existing notebooks have XGP ports, most don't.

 

[blanketyblank]

well if your laptop has a pci-express slot couldn't you get some kind of add in card?
I'm not sure what kind of speed most laptop slots can do though. If it's x4 or higher it would probably work. Hell even an x1 slot might be decent for a laptop with IGP since according to some benchmarks it can deliver about 80% of the performance in a lot of games.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/pci-express-2.0,1915-11.html

 

[RussianSensation]

A core i7 920 @ 4.0 with dual 5970s easily runs on an 850 watt quality PSU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbpeHkvKyKk&feature=related

In fact that looks like PC Power & Cooling 750 watt, but it is stated at 850 watts by the poster (maybe an error).

Corsair 850 modular for $170
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-011-_-Product

Then again I have no idea what anyone would need dual 5970s for. A single 5970 will run anything out there.

 

[Hey Zeus]

Why don't you just put together a pair of 700's or something. I have two Fatal1ty's and they work great