PSA - Toyota recalls vehicles over acceleration problem

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
How many feet does it take to get your car to 75mph vs how many feet it takes to stop it from 75mph? That's an illustration of the difference in power between the engine and the brakes.

How many feet does it take to stop from 75mph while still at WOT?

Me thinks that the floor mat issue has revealed a bigger problem that Toyota doesn't want to address: there is something wrong with their braking system.

I realize this is jumping to conclusions, but it seems like they overheat and fail under extreme circumstances.

Well, my dad's 04 camry's brakes have always sucked. At least IMO. Seem to stop the car ok but it is the mushiest pedal ever, with a ton of travel before it actually seems to do anything. Been looked at and just get the response "Well that's just the way it is."

Make a new thread. That's not right.

 

[Bignate603]

Originally posted by: JJ650

Originally posted by: Skoorb

In several cases, drivers said their vehicle accelerated to more than 100 m.p.h., despite stomping on the brake.

bullsh*t

Brakes > throttle.

???????

I promise you that the engine stuck at WOT is way more than what those brakes can compensate for, especially at the speed they were travelling at.

The only time I've ever seen the brakes being more less powerful than engines is on some offroad vehicles with ridiculously low gearing. My '71 CJ can overpower its brakes easily in low gear. Somehow I doubt you'll find a normal car with a 92:1 crawl ratio though so you're not really going to run into that problem very often.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I hate that anyone lost their life because of this, but I've had it happen a few times, once the carpet got under the pedal and another time the throttle linkage got hooked on a wire after we got the car back from the shop. The first time, I wedged my toe under the accelerator and pulled it back, the linkage was a bit more tricky, turned the car off after putting it in neutral, just off, not far enough to engage the steering column lock.

 

[Raizinman]

I have personally investigated numerous of the sudden accceleration vehicles from Toyota and Lexus over the last 8 years. Toyota's claim has always been that the owner confused the brake with the gas and stepped hard on the gas, thinking it was the brake. Oddly, this confusion only happened on select models?? For a while, the thought was that the brake / gas pedal placement was not parallel with the drivers seat, causing a person driving any other vehicle, to perhaps make a mistake when put into these select vehicles. Unfortunately, the pedal / seat alignment is different enough on many models to not be the common demoninator. In speaking with the NHTSA, they were looking into a cruise control circuit board that could cause a sudden acceleration. At the time, there were not definative answers. As for the floor mat theory, in my investigations, it was always examined, but ruled out. I'm not saying that the floor mat could not cause it, but I have seen numerous sudden accelerations in Toyota's that had no floor mats.

NOTE: In testing the cruise control theory, I had several people who had a problem with sudden acceleration with their cars disconnect the cruise control fuse. To this date, none of these vehicles have had another occurance of sudden acceleration. Keep in mind that the sudden acceleration is not a frequent event. It happens VERY intermitantly and cannot be predicted. Therefore it is not known for sure if pulling the cruise control fuse is the solution to this problem or not.

The majority of my cases happened after parking their car and placing the gear selector into either reverse or drive. The vehicle would just take off as though someone stepped all the way on the accelerator. There are numerous complaints on the NHTSA web site about this. You will notice that the list of affected vehicles on the NHTSA is not the same as what Toyota recalled. The complaints go back as far as 2003 Camry. The problems are documents at NHTSA under Vehicle Speed Control and accellerator pedal.

 

[LTC8K6]

Cruise control malfunction would not explain the simultaneous brake failure, though.

If the brakes are working and applied properly, they will stop the car in short order if it's on the highway at speed, or prevent it from going anywhere in the first place if it's from rest.

 

[DVad3r]

This reminds me of my friend's dad who was a terrible driver to begin with. He picked up some family from the airport and when he was coming back, his flip-flop sandle got jammed in the pedals and he couldn't brake, so he rammed into some car haha. No one got hurt, the hood became a wall, and it was funny as fuck 😀

 

[Raizinman]

Good point and one for which again we can only theorize on an answer. The belief is that since the driver was not expecting this, they would pump or lightly press on the brakes several times depleting the brake system vacuum, then making it appear to them as though the brakes malfuctioned. Brake vacuum is difficult to restore on a WOT (Wide Open Throttle) vehicle. A brake check on an accelerated vehicles found the brakes in good working order afterwards, everytime. This same question could easily be asked whether or not it could be the floor mat or cruise control. The brakes should control the vehicle, but we see that they don't.

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Cruise control malfunction would not explain the simultaneous brake failure, though.

If the brakes are working and applied properly, they will stop the car in short order if it's on the highway at speed, or prevent it from going anywhere in the first place if it's from rest.

 

[LTC8K6]

and applied properly

😀

 

[Gamingphreek]

While I haven't driven one of the aforementioned cars, what are the drivers pedals doing that close to the ground where an entire mat can slip over it to the point that you can't free it?

The only time I have had problems with a pedal getting stuck is when I disengage the clutch and it is pushed firmly against the firewall. A gas pedal though?? They would have to be at or near WOT to begin with for that to get stuck.

LTC8K6 - I'm interested in knowing whether the ABS system kicked in as well when you tested on your car. Back in my stupid years as a teenager, I went ~100MPH once (just to have done it) and then applied the brakes. The ABS system kicked in immediately ('04 Accord EX V6). Is there a speed where ABS activates automatically regardless of brake pressure?

What I am getting at is, at least in my mind, that ABS should prolong the life of the brakes with respect to overheating. Since the brake pad isn't in constant contact and is instead rapidly engaging, friction (and therefore heat) should be lower in my mind.

-Kevin

 

[LTC8K6]

I did not notice the ABS come on, but my Jeep also has Brake Assist which gives you max braking automatically when the system detects a panic stop attempt. Not sure how the two work together exactly. The ETC light is the one that came on and flashed during my test at about 5mph when the engine went to idle. It reset itself when I released the pedals.


**********
BAS (Brake Assist System)
The BAS is designed to optimize the vehicle?s braking
capability during emergency braking maneuvers. The
system detects an emergency braking situation by sensing
the rate and amount of brake application and then
applies optimum pressure to the brakes. This can help
reduce braking distances. The BAS complements the
anti-lock brake system (ABS). Applying the brakes very
quickly results in the best BAS assistance. To receive the
benefit of the system, you must apply continuous braking
pressure during the stopping sequence (do not
?pump? the brakes). Do not reduce brake pedal pressure
unless braking is no longer desired. Once the brake pedal
is released, the BAS is deactivated.
**********

Electronic Throttle Control (ETC) Warning Light
This light informs you of a problem with the
Electronic Throttle Control system. If a problem
is detected the light will come on while the
engine is running. Cycle the ignition key when
the vehicle has completely stopped and the gear selector
is placed in the P (Park) position. The light should turn
off. If the light remains lit with the engine running your
vehicle will usually be drivable, however, see your dealer
for service as soon as possible. If the light is flashing
when the engine is running, immediate service is required
and you may experience reduced performance, an
elevated/rough idle or engine stall and your vehicle may
require towing. The light will come on when the ignition
is first turned on and remain on briefly as a bulb check.
If the light does not come on during starting, have the
system checked by an authorized dealer.

 

[fleabag]

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
How many feet does it take to get your car to 75mph vs how many feet it takes to stop it from 75mph? That's an illustration of the difference in power between the engine and the brakes.

How many feet does it take to stop from 75mph while still at WOT?

Me thinks that the floor mat issue has revealed a bigger problem that Toyota doesn't want to address: there is something wrong with their braking system.

I realize this is jumping to conclusions, but it seems like they overheat and fail under extreme circumstances.

Well, my dad's 04 camry's brakes have always sucked. At least IMO. Seem to stop the car ok but it is the mushiest pedal ever, with a ton of travel before it actually seems to do anything. Been looked at and just get the response "Well that's just the way it is."

My dad's brakes in his ES350 are EXACTLY the same way. Now that another poster has tried this test with full throttle and brake in a vehicle other than a Toyota, maybe I ought to test this out in a different vehicle. The ES350 doesn't exactly have the best brakes and it's possible that in this case the ES350's shitty brakes aren't enough to stop the car at full throttle.


As for the guy in his jeep and the brake assist, well I don't think that's a good vehicle to test this in since brake assist changes things a whole lot. Maybe you should try your test on a car that doesn't have brake assist and is a little bit older.

Edit:
I just realized three things: 1. The lexus that crashed probably had that EBD braking system that puts more braking pressure in emergency situations. (Suppose to be on 2009 MY Lexus) 2. That jeep probably has better braking performance than the Lexus and 3. The Jeep is RWD most of the time and 4WD when you enable it, therefore the braking that is being done is on the front wheels with the drive on the rear wheels, something completely different than on the ES350 which has the braking and drive wheels on the same Axle.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

lol that 3.5L engine is pretty powerful. i mean it's not the best damn V6 out there but for a Toyota it's been a major improvement. I'm pretty sure most brakes will struggle especially on family cars like these with that kinda power at full throttle. I'm confident they will stop but has anyone got some numbers about the difference between no throttle and full throttle? Is it big?

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
How many feet does it take to get your car to 75mph vs how many feet it takes to stop it from 75mph? That's an illustration of the difference in power between the engine and the brakes.

How many feet does it take to stop from 75mph while still at WOT?

Me thinks that the floor mat issue has revealed a bigger problem that Toyota doesn't want to address: there is something wrong with their braking system.

I realize this is jumping to conclusions, but it seems like they overheat and fail under extreme circumstances.

Well, my dad's 04 camry's brakes have always sucked. At least IMO. Seem to stop the car ok but it is the mushiest pedal ever, with a ton of travel before it actually seems to do anything. Been looked at and just get the response "Well that's just the way it is."

Older Camrys have mushy brakes no? I think all of htem are like that. The resistance you get when you push down isn't very good. The '07s fixed this but my friend's 03 that I drove and my 98 feel similar in terms of braking. Same with older Toyotas I've driven. IT takes getting used to if you come from other cars but I suppose I'm very used to it now.

 

[LTC8K6]

Just to clarify, my Jeep GC is full time four wheel drive and is always driving all 4 wheels.

 

[LTC8K6]

I will attempt to do the test with a 1996 Lumina sometime today. 3100 V6 and drums in the rear with the anti-lock light staying on occasionally. 😀

 

[Vette73]

Another thing people are not adding is that a lot of cars come with ceramic pads now. Yea they work great for most driving but their big weakness is high temps. They can't take heat as well and in a case like this they will fail a lot faster then the standard old style semi-met pads.

 

[dman]

At least once (maybe twice) I've had the floormat jam under the gas pedal causing it to stick. It wasn't at WOT though and I recognized the situation fast enough to correct it. Really though, why do they claim neutral is so hard to find? I know those notch-shifters are pretty annoying but it's not that challenging to go from D to N. Sad.

 

[LTC8K6]

Okay, here is my report on the Lumina. I did 8 braking tests during an errand this morning. 4 on the way out and 4 on the way back.

1996 Lumina LS 3100 V6 160HP Disc/Drum ~48,000 miles - poorly maintained with an occasional anti-lock light and occasional sticking drums. Original pads and shoes. Old tires that need replacing on the front. It was about 50 degrees out, so fairly cool.

First test was with stone cold brakes. Held the car at 60 and then floored it. Braked with left foot only, holding throttle down with right foot. Very obviously going to take a while to stop. Braking action weak but clearly effective and the car did stop. Much weaker braking than I expected and much weaker than my Jeep.

Second test shortly after the first to test with heated up brakes. Much stronger braking action this time, same result. Obviously going to take longer than normal but clearly effective. Stopped quite a bit quicker this time.

Third test was to see how good the brakes were now that they had two panic stops on them. This was done with the throttle at idle from 65mph. Braking action was strong and normal.

Did a 4th full throttle test after the brakes cooled a bit. Similar results. No problem stopping.

Went about my business for a while to let the car return to normal and then did 4 more tests on the way back. These tests were to see what effect pumping the pedal had.

Held the car at 60 for a bit, then floored the throttle. Pumped the brake pedal hard 4 times and on the 5th pump I held the brakes on. Pedal was hard and high but I still seemed to have power assist. Seemed to take longer but otherwise the results were similar. I still clearly had effective brakes and they still were clearly going to stop the car, and they did.

Basically same results for the next 3 tests. I did the same thing, pump 4 times and then hold on the 5th. The brakes seemed to get more effective with some heat in them, as I would expect.

I never lost the brakes and it was always obvious that I had effective, if weaker, braking.

There was never any question in my mind that the brakes would stop the car.

Again the Lumina returned to normal quickly and the brakes acted normally after the 4 tests.

There were no apparent ill effects on the car and no warning lights. The engine temp remained normal. The transmission shifting was normal at all times.

 

[boomerang]

There's a thread now in OT on this. This link was posted. Thought I'd put it here for people to get an idea what's going on.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.aut...09/09/image002_opt.jpg

This is a really piss poor design. IMO they're going to have to design and manufacture different gas pedals for all these cars. This is going to be expensive.

Maybe they'll get off the hook by just telling people to remove their mats? You can tell people to do it, but if they actually do it is another thing entirely. I know that there's no way I'd go through a Michigan winter without a floor mat for the driver.

 

[LTC8K6]

A shorter mat should solve the problem, shouldn't it? If it's too short to reach the bottom of the pedal, and anchored, there shouldn't be any problem.

Of course, if you install your own mats...

 

[boomerang]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
A shorter mat should solve the problem, shouldn't it? If it's too short to reach the bottom of the pedal, and anchored, there shouldn't be any problem.

Of course, if you install your own mats...

Oh yeah, that would work.

But yeah the question in my mind is how do you deal with aftermarket mats, those that won't hook the factory mats, etc. I don't know the answers to these questions. I'm guessing it's a legal issue of some kind. Who decides what is appropriate action?

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
lol that 3.5L engine is pretty powerful. i mean it's not the best damn V6 out there but for a Toyota it's been a major improvement. I'm pretty sure most brakes will struggle especially on family cars like these with that kinda power at full throttle. I'm confident they will stop but has anyone got some numbers about the difference between no throttle and full throttle? Is it big?

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
How many feet does it take to get your car to 75mph vs how many feet it takes to stop it from 75mph? That's an illustration of the difference in power between the engine and the brakes.

How many feet does it take to stop from 75mph while still at WOT?

Me thinks that the floor mat issue has revealed a bigger problem that Toyota doesn't want to address: there is something wrong with their braking system.

I realize this is jumping to conclusions, but it seems like they overheat and fail under extreme circumstances.

Well, my dad's 04 camry's brakes have always sucked. At least IMO. Seem to stop the car ok but it is the mushiest pedal ever, with a ton of travel before it actually seems to do anything. Been looked at and just get the response "Well that's just the way it is."

Older Camrys have mushy brakes no? I think all of htem are like that. The resistance you get when you push down isn't very good. The '07s fixed this but my friend's 03 that I drove and my 98 feel similar in terms of braking. Same with older Toyotas I've driven. IT takes getting used to if you come from other cars but I suppose I'm very used to it now.

Brakes are fairly linear. That can easily be told by 0-100-0mph tests.

Just using simple physics, you can understand, no matter the car, the brakes will be orders of magnitude more powerful than the engine, unless you drive a 1969 Chevy Big Block Camaro with 1 brake line cut so it's working on only 2 drum brakes.

Times for 0-100mph, then times for 100mph to 0.
996 Turbo 9.4/4.3
Suburu Impreza Sti d13.77/4.25
Civic Si 16.02/4.64
Chrysler Crossfire 17.73/4.47
BMW E46 323i 19.93/5.16.
You average I4 family sedan will do 0-100 in ~19-21s and 100-0 in 4.6-5.5
V6? 0-100 in probably 14-16s and 100-0 in the same time as the I4, probably a bit less.
Bugatti Veyron with 1001+hp? 5.5/3.4

Fact of the matter is, if you wanted to be unscientific and ballpark how much "HP" brakes put out, you'll be hard pressed to find a car with less than the equalivent of around 1000hp braking.

Doesn't matter what car it is, in the end, stores like this are always going to be under your control.

Furthermore, the brakes have to do less work against the engine at high speeds because drag and friction are already taking away some of the power.

 

[LTC8K6]

Just did the promised light application of brake and throttle with my Jeep while moving. It did indeed recognize the conflict and try to save me. Throttle light came on and power was reduced.

At a stop, the computer allowed me to brake torque.

While moving, it intervened fairly quickly.

 

[dainthomas]

Originally posted by: DLeRium
lol that 3.5L engine is pretty powerful. i mean it's not the best damn V6 out there but for a Toyota it's been a major improvement. I'm pretty sure most brakes will struggle especially on family cars like these with that kinda power at full throttle. I'm confident they will stop but has anyone got some numbers about the difference between no throttle and full throttle? Is it big?

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
How many feet does it take to get your car to 75mph vs how many feet it takes to stop it from 75mph? That's an illustration of the difference in power between the engine and the brakes.

How many feet does it take to stop from 75mph while still at WOT?

Me thinks that the floor mat issue has revealed a bigger problem that Toyota doesn't want to address: there is something wrong with their braking system.

I realize this is jumping to conclusions, but it seems like they overheat and fail under extreme circumstances.

Well, my dad's 04 camry's brakes have always sucked. At least IMO. Seem to stop the car ok but it is the mushiest pedal ever, with a ton of travel before it actually seems to do anything. Been looked at and just get the response "Well that's just the way it is."

Older Camrys have mushy brakes no? I think all of htem are like that. The resistance you get when you push down isn't very good. The '07s fixed this but my friend's 03 that I drove and my 98 feel similar in terms of braking. Same with older Toyotas I've driven. IT takes getting used to if you come from other cars but I suppose I'm very used to it now.

My 93 Camry had the worst brakes. Any prolonged downgrade and they would lose significant power (even after getting them replaced). My 08 Tundra on the other hand will stop on a dime, pretty good for such a big truck.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: dainthomas

Originally posted by: DLeRium
lol that 3.5L engine is pretty powerful. i mean it's not the best damn V6 out there but for a Toyota it's been a major improvement. I'm pretty sure most brakes will struggle especially on family cars like these with that kinda power at full throttle. I'm confident they will stop but has anyone got some numbers about the difference between no throttle and full throttle? Is it big?

Originally posted by: SparkyJJO

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
How many feet does it take to get your car to 75mph vs how many feet it takes to stop it from 75mph? That's an illustration of the difference in power between the engine and the brakes.

How many feet does it take to stop from 75mph while still at WOT?

Me thinks that the floor mat issue has revealed a bigger problem that Toyota doesn't want to address: there is something wrong with their braking system.

I realize this is jumping to conclusions, but it seems like they overheat and fail under extreme circumstances.

Well, my dad's 04 camry's brakes have always sucked. At least IMO. Seem to stop the car ok but it is the mushiest pedal ever, with a ton of travel before it actually seems to do anything. Been looked at and just get the response "Well that's just the way it is."

Older Camrys have mushy brakes no? I think all of htem are like that. The resistance you get when you push down isn't very good. The '07s fixed this but my friend's 03 that I drove and my 98 feel similar in terms of braking. Same with older Toyotas I've driven. IT takes getting used to if you come from other cars but I suppose I'm very used to it now.

My 93 Camry had the worst brakes. Any prolonged downgrade and they would lose significant power (even after getting them replaced). My 08 Tundra on the other hand will stop on a dime, pretty good for such a big truck.

Brake fade is more about cooling than brakes themselves. If you got vented rotors or upgraded from DOT3 fluid to DOT4, it would help your problems.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Just did the promised light application of brake and throttle with my Jeep while moving. It did indeed recognize the conflict and try to save me. Throttle light came on and power was reduced.

At a stop, the computer allowed me to brake torque.

While moving, it intervened fairly quickly.

I posted in the OT thread about my Mk4 VW Golf failing with a WOT. That too detected when the throttle and brake were applied at the same time for more than roughly 5 secnds. It pissed me off because that meant no heel/toe, but I guess for this issue it was safer. That had 204hp to reign in and it was simple enough as it was a manual. drop into neutral and coast to a stop at the side of the road with the engine screaming, then shut it off.

That car needed it's warranty so badly...