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PSA: The market isn't always perfect. Economic actors are not always rational.

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Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
The question remains: is government policy necessarily more rational than any individual's? I have no reason to expect that this is the case. It's simply another case of an oligarchy deciding what is best for everyone.

Here's a case where government policy was more rational than the free market's

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...opinion/28tedesco.html

Those free markets were influenced and directed by government policy.

Banks didnt give out loans to anyone with a pulse and they were deemed discriminatory. Laws changed. Banks gave out loans to everyone and now we proclaim them to be predatory. Damned if you do, damned if you dont.

To say government policy trumps free markets for rationality really isnt doing the discussion justice because even "free markets" are well regulated and restricted by what? Government policy.......
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
-snip-
Please explain to me how the free market will/would punish the creator of the CDS (Cassano) if it wasn't for that gosh darn GUBMIT getting in the way?

Republicans.txt

'Walk it backwards'

I.e., go through it step-by-step and what do YOU come up with?

BTW: Who is really the 'guilty party' here? Cassano or AIG?

If an employee comes up with a stupid idea, and his employers fall for it who should suffer? Just the employee or the company?

So AIG empowered him, but they bear no fault and we must restrict ourselves to a discussion of 'free market' repercussions to just Cassano?

I.e., your question is bogus; it's not how would the market punish Cassano, but how would it punish AIG. We all know the answer to that - bankrupt mofo's (and likely in court getting sued by investors. Not a freakin bailout).

Fern
 
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Phokus
-snip-
Please explain to me how the free market will/would punish the creator of the CDS (Cassano) if it wasn't for that gosh darn GUBMIT getting in the way?

Republicans.txt

'Walk it backwards'

I.e., go through it step-by-step and what do YOU come up with?

BTW: Who is really the 'guilty party' here? Cassano or AIG?

If an employee comes up with a stupid idea, and his employers fall for it who should suffer? Just the employee or the company?

So AIG empowered him, but they bear no fault and we must restrict ourselves to a discussion of 'free market' repercussions to just Cassano?

I.e., your question is bogus; it's not how would the market punish Cassano, but how would it punish AIG. We all know the answer to that - bankrupt mofo's (and likely in court getting sued by investors. Not a freakin bailout).

Fern

And the market would have left AIG to go bankrupt, but the government intervened.
 
Originally posted by: Genx87
Uh your example was indicating to me at least they were hiding losses or shifting money around to other investors ala pyramid scheme to scam more investors out of money before it came crumbling down. As far as I know cooking the books and pyramid schemes are still illegal in this country. If that wasnt what you were saying I apologize.

The companies were not operating outside of the regulatory and accounting policies and procedures. They had auditors, regulators, Congress, and investors looking at and examining FAS140 and their regulatory capital levels. *EVERYBODY* largely knew how things worked, yet nobody did anything.

Why? Because "free markets" are not efficient.
 
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Phokus
-snip-
Please explain to me how the free market will/would punish the creator of the CDS (Cassano) if it wasn't for that gosh darn GUBMIT getting in the way?

Republicans.txt

'Walk it backwards'

I.e., go through it step-by-step and what do YOU come up with?

BTW: Who is really the 'guilty party' here? Cassano or AIG?

If an employee comes up with a stupid idea, and his employers fall for it who should suffer? Just the employee or the company?

So AIG empowered him, but they bear no fault and we must restrict ourselves to a discussion of 'free market' repercussions to just Cassano?

I.e., your question is bogus; it's not how would the market punish Cassano, but how would it punish AIG. We all know the answer to that - bankrupt mofo's (and likely in court getting sued by investors. Not a freakin bailout).

Fern

Oh wow, so they go bankrupt, big fucking deal, you do realize that the people above Cassano also profited handsomely from Cassano's bets too, right? Yeah, you're right, the execs above Cassano were at fault as well, i'm sure they're crying in the hundreds of millions they made off this shady deal.

BTW, i'm not laying blame at Cassano by himself (even though he was an obvious guilty party). The real culprit was the free market, which is what i've been arguing all along, Cassano was just a case in point. Did the government force the board of directors to structure their compensation in a way that allowed them to profit from excessive risk? No, they did that out of their own free will, because competition for talent was so great that they gave employees packages that were beyond generous and in no way tied to long term performance. Try pinning THAT on the government.
 

Originally posted by: Phokus

Here's a case where government policy was more rational than the free market's

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...opinion/28tedesco.html

you could almost replace the words 'Canadian banks' with 'Texas regional banks.' sounds more like the banks have been acting conservatively. that's not necessarily rational, either. if they're passing by risks that are worthwhile then they're not being rational.
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Phokus

Here's a case where government policy was more rational than the free market's

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...opinion/28tedesco.html

you could almost replace the words 'Canadian banks' with 'Texas regional banks.' sounds more like the banks have been acting conservatively. that's not necessarily rational, either. if they're passing by risks that are worthwhile then they're not being rational.

Which banks would you rather have right now, ours or theirs? I'd trade in a heartbeat. I don't know about you, but i'd rather have slower, steadier growth, rather than extreme highs and almost being the sole cause of worldwide economic armageddon.

The Canadians should be proud that they have the soundest banking system in the world.
 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Genx87
Uh your example was indicating to me at least they were hiding losses or shifting money around to other investors ala pyramid scheme to scam more investors out of money before it came crumbling down. As far as I know cooking the books and pyramid schemes are still illegal in this country. If that wasnt what you were saying I apologize.

The companies were not operating outside of the regulatory and accounting policies and procedures. They had auditors, regulators, Congress, and investors looking at and examining FAS140 and their regulatory capital levels. *EVERYBODY* largely knew how things worked, yet nobody did anything.

Why? Because "free markets" are not efficient.

Were these the same regulatory bodies that thought nothing was strange about Madoff? Yeah, let's hand the reins to them. :roll:

The free market may be inefficient but the government run "market" seems to be blind, inept, and corrupt.
 
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Genx87
Uh your example was indicating to me at least they were hiding losses or shifting money around to other investors ala pyramid scheme to scam more investors out of money before it came crumbling down. As far as I know cooking the books and pyramid schemes are still illegal in this country. If that wasnt what you were saying I apologize.

The companies were not operating outside of the regulatory and accounting policies and procedures. They had auditors, regulators, Congress, and investors looking at and examining FAS140 and their regulatory capital levels. *EVERYBODY* largely knew how things worked, yet nobody did anything.

Why? Because "free markets" are not efficient.

Were these the same regulatory bodies that thought nothing was strange about Madoff? Yeah, let's hand the reins to them. :roll:

The free market may be inefficient but the government run "market" seems to be blind, inept, and corrupt.

Man those blind, inept, and corrupt canadians

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...opinion/28tedesco.html

btw, hedgefund regulations are a joke. They need to be beefed up 1000 times what it is now.
 
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Genx87
Uh your example was indicating to me at least they were hiding losses or shifting money around to other investors ala pyramid scheme to scam more investors out of money before it came crumbling down. As far as I know cooking the books and pyramid schemes are still illegal in this country. If that wasnt what you were saying I apologize.

The companies were not operating outside of the regulatory and accounting policies and procedures. They had auditors, regulators, Congress, and investors looking at and examining FAS140 and their regulatory capital levels. *EVERYBODY* largely knew how things worked, yet nobody did anything.

Why? Because "free markets" are not efficient.

Were these the same regulatory bodies that thought nothing was strange about Madoff? Yeah, let's hand the reins to them. :roll:

The free market may be inefficient but the government run "market" seems to be blind, inept, and corrupt.


As Phokus pointed out, hedge fund regulation is a joke. They are largely unregulated, the greatest extent of those regulations are the SEC oversight of securities markets, not of the actual fund itself. To the extent the fund was booking figment trades, it had no responsibility to actually check the trades. Otherwise, there are marginal requirements for entering a hedge fund, but that's about it.

This is what is laughable of morons like bamacre, who think that the lapse was in regulation. Sorry, but my memory extends further than 2 years, when the hedge funds were screaming to Congress not to regulate them. Why would they be screaming to NOT regulate them if they were already regulated? Well...gee...could it be because they aren't regulated?

Hedge funds are actually one of the last truly "free markets" and they are also some of the ones that are the worst at abusing the system, especially in the areas of commodity trading, leverage, and the whole CDO madness. They are also where the rich people play and make shit-tons of money off of the regulated market's back (aka, normal investors).

Wake the fuck up.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus

Which banks would you rather have right now, ours or theirs? I'd trade in a heartbeat. I don't know about you, but i'd rather have slower, steadier growth, rather than extreme highs and almost being the sole cause of worldwide economic armageddon.

The Canadians should be proud that they have the soundest banking system in the world.

i'd rather have any banks that weren't involved in california's ridiculous housing market. wow, canadian banks don't have exposure to ridiculous housing markets? no crap.
 
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Evan
Greenspan lowering certain benchmark rates early in the decade did not cause, for example, Lehman to transfer $400B in risk to a 3rd party in the form of CDS now did it? Secondary mortgage markets absolutely are affected by the Fed's actions, but had those securities not been parlayed and fractured off into a thousand pieces (in innumerable ways might I add) with no way to assess their risk, we would have had a less far-reaching global catastrophe. What unregulated CDS (arguably not even the biggest cause for collapse) did was simply add fuel to the fire by spreading a few billion in "net" dollars risk across industries and continents. And that had nothing to do with overinflating a bubble via interest rate cuts and everything to do with no controls, no regulation (CDS is not OTC anymore and stats are now available via the DTCC), and just plain greed.

So you feel that hundreds of billions of NEW, CHEAP dollars being pumped into mortgages due to skyrocketing real estate values didn't affect Lehman's decision to move a massive portion of their portfolio into CDS at all? And then you must also think that massive investment shifts such as Lehman's had no affect on the CDS market by creating demand for more CDS?

Except Lehman was betting on housing prices increasing too, so I'm not sure you can use the excuse that Lehman used CDS to mitigate risk because they were afraid of the housing bubble when they were similtaneously betting on the housing bubble. This notion that the Fed lowering interest rates caused the catastrophe deflects from those that literally, physically made the decisions to leverage these securities all over the world. The Fed is not without blame, sure, you don't want to lower interest rates to the end of time. But facts are the Fed didn't make these decisions, a half a dozen or so large private banks/pseudo-banks did. You can't get away from that fact, especially when 99% of U.S. banks were able to stay solvent. If 99% of banks were able to withstand the temptation of low Fed-adjusted interest rates it becomes impossible to call the Fed's actions the underlying cause of all of this.
 
Originally posted by: ElFenix
Originally posted by: Phokus

Which banks would you rather have right now, ours or theirs? I'd trade in a heartbeat. I don't know about you, but i'd rather have slower, steadier growth, rather than extreme highs and almost being the sole cause of worldwide economic armageddon.

The Canadians should be proud that they have the soundest banking system in the world.

i'd rather have any banks that weren't involved in california's ridiculous housing market. wow, canadian banks don't have exposure to ridiculous housing markets? no crap.

Oh really, you mean you want banks that didn't loan money like candy and engage in subprime fraud thus inflating home values more?

Canadian banks are known to be risk-averse, and this has served them well. While their American counterparts were loading up their books with risky mortgages, Canadian banks maintained their lending requirements, largely avoiding subprime mortgages. The buttoned-down banks in Canada also tended to keep these types of securities on their books, rather than packaging them and selling them to investors. This meant that the exposures they did have to weak mortgages were more visible to the marketplace.


 
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: Genx87
Uh your example was indicating to me at least they were hiding losses or shifting money around to other investors ala pyramid scheme to scam more investors out of money before it came crumbling down. As far as I know cooking the books and pyramid schemes are still illegal in this country. If that wasnt what you were saying I apologize.

The companies were not operating outside of the regulatory and accounting policies and procedures. They had auditors, regulators, Congress, and investors looking at and examining FAS140 and their regulatory capital levels. *EVERYBODY* largely knew how things worked, yet nobody did anything.

Why? Because "free markets" are not efficient.

Were these the same regulatory bodies that thought nothing was strange about Madoff? Yeah, let's hand the reins to them. :roll:

The free market may be inefficient but the government run "market" seems to be blind, inept, and corrupt.


As Phokus pointed out, hedge fund regulation is a joke. They are largely unregulated, the greatest extent of those regulations are the SEC oversight of securities markets, not of the actual fund itself. To the extent the fund was booking figment trades, it had no responsibility to actually check the trades. Otherwise, there are marginal requirements for entering a hedge fund, but that's about it.

This is what is laughable of morons like bamacre, who think that the lapse was in regulation. Sorry, but my memory extends further than 2 years, when the hedge funds were screaming to Congress not to regulate them. Why would they be screaming to NOT regulate them if they were already regulated? Well...gee...could it be because they aren't regulated?

Hedge funds are actually one of the last truly "free markets" and they are also some of the ones that are the worst at abusing the system, especially in the areas of commodity trading, leverage, and the whole CDO madness. They are also where the rich people play and make shit-tons of money off of the regulated market's back (aka, normal investors).

Wake the fuck up.

This is the problem with conservatives and libertarians. They start with ideology first and work their way down. Whereas people with COMMON FUCKING SENSE looks at the evidence first and draw conclusions. Of course if you have a mindset of 'it's the GUBMINT'S fault' before you explore the evidence, you're going to mentally throw out evidence that the free market fucked up and you'll fish for any evidence, no matter how ridiculous, that it was the government's fault.

 
Originally posted by: Phokus
This is the problem with conservatives and libertarians. They start with ideology first and work their way down. Whereas people with COMMON FUCKING SENSE looks at the evidence first and draw conclusions. Of course if you have a mindset of 'it's the GUBMINT'S fault' before you explore the evidence, you're going to mentally throw out evidence that the free market fucked up and you'll fish for any evidence, no matter how ridiculous, that it was the government's fault.

Coming from someone who always cries "Republicans fault!" before knowing the facts, this is quite comical.

You're a bad joke.
 
Originally posted by: BoberFett
Originally posted by: Phokus
This is the problem with conservatives and libertarians. They start with ideology first and work their way down. Whereas people with COMMON FUCKING SENSE looks at the evidence first and draw conclusions. Of course if you have a mindset of 'it's the GUBMINT'S fault' before you explore the evidence, you're going to mentally throw out evidence that the free market fucked up and you'll fish for any evidence, no matter how ridiculous, that it was the government's fault.

Coming from someone who always cries "Republicans fault!" before knowing the facts, this is quite comical.

You're a bad joke.

hehe

Common sense huh. Wow that is hilarious.

seriously that's rich!

That be a whole new thread about how Dems just discovered they had common sense. Well they thought they had it all along. umm I think you missed the definition it definately doesn't come out of your ass. Just remember that everytime you all Blame Bush and let BHO get a free pass you kinda throw that sense out the window.

Here is some common sense:
don't spend more money than all the rest of the presidents combined with in your first 125 days as president.
Don't go to a racist Church.
Don't hang out with people who bomb government buildings.
Don't say Nafta Bad... then tell Canada your just kidding.
Don't make up a story about dodging snipers when there was more than one camera recording it for posterity. (oops that wasn't Obama)
or
Don't say "the CIA lied to me!"
Don't send a flunky to CIA intel meetings.
Don't change your story after reading polls.
Don't try to convince that personal experience is more important than being lawful if you are a judge.
Don't wink and nod while joking that judges make policy.

Don't say killing babies is a "Choice."
 
Originally posted by: yllus
I've seen this debate be brought up once in a while on these forums, and browsing The Week a couple of days ago I read an editorial by Brad DeLong that touched on the topic. With a new book entitled A Failure of Capitalism: The Crisis of '08 and the Descent into Depression by Judge Richard A. Posner, it seems like this topic can begin to be addressed in depth.

Hypothesis: Markets are perfect. Actors in that market will act rationally to maximize their profits and avoid losses.

Below, Mr. DeLong lists a number of examples of actor irrationality, and quotes an extremely prominent member of the Chicago School of Economics implying that strong government intervention is sometimes needed to correct irrational actions.

The Chicago School is eclipsed

Richard Posner, leader of the Chicago School of Economics and Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals judge, uses his new book, ?A Failure of Capitalism,? to try to rescue the Chicago School?s foundational assumption that the economy behaves as if all economic agents and actors are rational, far-sighted calculators.

In some sense, Posner must try. For without this underlying assumption, the clock strikes midnight, the stately brougham of Chicago economic theory turns into a pumpkin, and the analytical horses that have pulled it so far over the past half- century turn back into little white mice.

Thus he writes: "At no stage need irrationality" on the part of markets or their participants "be posited to explain? the collapse of financial markets last year and the current deep recession.

We see many things in the financial crisis and the recession that are not what we would see in an economy populated by smoothly rational utilitarian calculators:

* It was not rational for Bear-Stearns CEO James Cayne, with his own $1 billion fortune on the line, to allow his firm to become hostage to the excessive risks taken by his subordinates in the mortgage markets.

* It was not rational for Citigroup CEO Charles Prince to keep dancing to the music, without thinking which seat Citi would claim when the round of musical chairs came abruptly to a halt.

* It was not rational for shareholders of newly incorporated investment banks to offer traders large annual bonuses for performance assessed by a year-to-year mark-to-market yardstick?rather than rewarding them with long-run restricted stock that would hold its value only if the traders' portfolio strategies proved durable.

* It was not rational for the shareholders and executives of General Motors and Chrysler to ignore the need for a Plan B in the event Americans fell out of love with SUVs.

Yet while Posner insists on saving the appearance of individual rationality, he is willing to jettison the Chicago School's conclusion that markets are everywhere and always perfect. As Robert Solow observed: "If I had written that, it would not be news. From Richard Posner, it is."

Abandoning the conclusion of market perfection opens the door to the idea that government needs to properly check, balance, and regulate markets in order to help them function as well as possible. But clinging to the assumption of individual rationality forces Posner?s view of what regulation is appropriate into a very awkward straightjacket.

"The mistakes were systemic,? he writes, ?the product of the nature of the banking business in an environment shaped by low interest rates and deregulation rather than the antics of crooks and fools." What we needed, Posner implies, was a Daddy State in the early 2000s that would have kept interest rates high, kept the recovery from the 2001 recession much weaker, and kept unemployment much higher.

The Daddy State should have restricted financial innovation because a "depression is too remote an event to influence business behavior. "The profit-maximizing businessman rationally ignores small probabilities that his conduct in conjunction with that of his competitors may bring down the entire economy."

Posner's claim that the Princes of Wall Street were rationally ignoring small probabilities is simply not true. The venture capitalists of Silicon Valley in the 1990s raised money for their funds overwhelmingly through equity rather than debt tranches.

They did so because they wanted themselves and their clients to retain some considerable fraction of their fortunes in an event that they regarded as small probability?but actually happened?that the overwhelming bulk of the value from the internet revolution flowed to customers rather than to businesses.

Explanation: Book reviewer Jonathan Rauch of the New York Times summarizes:

Populists and libertarians will hate this book, though I wouldn?t want to predict which group will hate it more. A perfect storm of irresponsibility? Hardly. The crisis came about precisely because intelligent businesses and consumers followed market signals. ?The mistakes were systemic ? the product of the nature of the banking business in an environment shaped by low interest rates and deregulation rather than the antics of crooks and fools.?

Were a lot of people reckless and stupid? Of course! But that cannot explain why the whole system crashed, since a lot of people are always reckless and stupid. The problem, fundamentally, is that markets cannot, and rationally should not, anticipate their own collapse. ?A depression is too remote an event to influence business behavior.?

Any single business can rationally guard against its own bankruptcy, but not the simultaneous bankruptcy of everybody else. ?The ­profit-maximizing businessman rationally ignores small probabilities that his conduct in conjunction with that of his competitors may bring down the entire economy.?

And so ? here is the part libertarians will hate ? markets, entirely of their own accord, will sometimes capsize and be unable to right themselves completely for years at a stretch. (See: Japan, ?lost decade? of.) Nor can monetary policy be counted on to counteract markets? tippy tendencies, as so many economists had come to believe.

Alas, economists and policy makers got cocksure. They thought they had consigned depressions to history. As a result, they missed warning signs and failed to prepare for the worst. ?We are learning,? Posner writes, ?that we need a more active and intelligent government to keep our model of a capitalist economy from running off the rails.?

So what say ye? I can see substance in the opinion that a businessman will guard against his own losses but care little for taking actions that spare others - even though enough losses by others will lead to his own. Logically following that line of thought, an actor with significant market heft may be needed to take the longview and be afforded more tools than what the Federal Reserve currently has.

The premise that should be your hypothesis is this: two traders, if allowed to make decisions freely, will come to a compromise that is mutually beneficial to both.

That's it. The market isn't perfect. It's just the best there is.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: yllus
Hypothesis: Markets are perfect. Actors in that market will act rationally to maximize their profits and avoid losses.

Straw man

Free market capitalism is not perfect. No one who understands has ever said so.

What is ironic is that those who see the irrationality of people run toward irrational government. I would much rather deal with irrational people than irrational government. I would much rather deal with the burdens of irrational people than irrational government. And how arrogant and ignorant is it for politicians to think they can manage an economy? An unimaginable amount of calculations, causes, and effects? Very much so. And to those who think we have been practicing free market capitalism, I simply ask how that can be when perhaps government doesn't directly decide the price of a TV or a microprocessor, but has almost total control over the price of money itself. The very backbone of an economy. And when the "Greenspan Put" is offered to businesses, when the Greenspan intoxicating low-interest rates keep the printing machines running and the market flooded with new money, how can one expect them to act rationally?

So you would rather deal with wall street hucksters who almost destroyed the world economy (but thankfully gov't stepped in and saved us) vs. for example, canada's banks that are well regulated and don't have to really deal with this subprime mess?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02...opinion/28tedesco.html

You, my friend, are irrational. That is why your extreme ideology is dangerous and thankfully you are considered the lunatic fringe and you nutjobs will never have a say in government.

Just because this must be opposed lest it become mainstream:

Government intervention caused this, not wall street hucksters.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
This is the problem with conservatives and libertarians. They start with ideology first and work their way down. Whereas people with COMMON FUCKING SENSE looks at the evidence first and draw conclusions. Of course if you have a mindset of 'it's the GUBMINT'S fault' before you explore the evidence, you're going to mentally throw out evidence that the free market fucked up and you'll fish for any evidence, no matter how ridiculous, that it was the government's fault.

Can you actually not see the blatant hypocrisy in your post?
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

Oh wow, so they go bankrupt, big fucking deal, you do realize that the people above Cassano also profited handsomely from Cassano's bets too, right? Yeah, you're right, the execs above Cassano were at fault as well, i'm sure they're crying in the hundreds of millions they made off this shady deal.

BTW, i'm not laying blame at Cassano by himself (even though he was an obvious guilty party). The real culprit was the free market, which is what i've been arguing all along, Cassano was just a case in point. Did the government force the board of directors to structure their compensation in a way that allowed them to profit from excessive risk? No, they did that out of their own free will, because competition for talent was so great that they gave employees packages that were beyond generous and in no way tied to long term performance. Try pinning THAT on the government.

Yeah, bankruptcy is a big deal.

Another big chunck missing here is the investor in these CDS's etc. These were NOT average consumer type people, they were mostly institutional type investors. They bear blame/responsibility for their participation in this.

They should have been allowed to take their loss on these risky finacial products istead of getting bailed out.

In this way the market would have worked perfectly fine - chase risk in hopes of the big payoff but lose and you get burned.

If the financial products were mis-labeled etc, then we another problem. But when betting on risky moves to make bigger-than-average profits, there is nothing wrong, no defect about the market revealed, when those people lose.

Edit: To be clear, the way the market (properly) works is to reward good decisions as well as punish bad ones. I'm OK with government regulations that mandate 'information' to enable people to make good decisions, but not that try to prevent those making bad decisions from getting burned, or even taking away peoples' rights to make bad decisions.

Fern
 
Originally posted by: Fern
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

Oh wow, so they go bankrupt, big fucking deal, you do realize that the people above Cassano also profited handsomely from Cassano's bets too, right? Yeah, you're right, the execs above Cassano were at fault as well, i'm sure they're crying in the hundreds of millions they made off this shady deal.

BTW, i'm not laying blame at Cassano by himself (even though he was an obvious guilty party). The real culprit was the free market, which is what i've been arguing all along, Cassano was just a case in point. Did the government force the board of directors to structure their compensation in a way that allowed them to profit from excessive risk? No, they did that out of their own free will, because competition for talent was so great that they gave employees packages that were beyond generous and in no way tied to long term performance. Try pinning THAT on the government.

Yeah, bankruptcy is a big deal.

Another big chunck missing here is the investor in these CDS's etc. These were NOT average consumer type people, they were mostly institutional type investors. They bear blame/responsibility for their participation in this.

They should have been allowed to take their loss on these risky finacial products istead of getting bailed out.

In this way the market would have worked perfectly fine - chase risk in hopes of the big payoff but lose and you get burned.

If the finacial products were mis-labeled etc, then we another problem. But when betting on risky moves to make bigger-than-average profits, there is nothing wrong, no defect about the market revealed, when those people lose.

Fern

How would have the market have been fine? The Execs still got their riches off this deal, that's the way their compensation packages were molded. Make extremely risky/dangerous bets and be rewarded... even if it fucks up, they don't pay. That's a huge failure of capitalism. So what if the company goes through bankrupcy, it's not the AIG execs who pay, it's the investors who probably didn't know what's going on in the company.

Heads i win, tails you lose, that's the wall street compensation package for you.
 
I love bobberfett/exman/et all commenting above me with nothing meaningful to say... it's funny how the biggest defenders of free market capitalism know the least about it.
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
I love bobberfett/exman/et all commenting above me with nothing meaningful to say... it's funny how the biggest defenders of free market capitalism know the least about it.

Phokus.txt
 
Originally posted by: Phokus
I love bobberfett/exman/et all commenting above me with nothing meaningful to say... it's funny how the biggest defenders of free market capitalism know the least about it.

would it make a difference to you what I said?

naw...

I like chocolate pudding!

Now If had agreed with ford focus I'd be brilliant!
 
Originally posted by: Phokus

How would have the market have been fine? The Execs still got their riches off this deal, that's the way their compensation packages were molded. Make extremely risky/dangerous bets and be rewarded... even if it fucks up, they don't pay. That's a huge failure of capitalism. So what if the company goes through bankrupcy, it's not the AIG execs who pay, it's the investors who probably didn't know what's going on in the company.

Heads i win, tails you lose, that's the wall street compensation package for you.

Originally posted by: Phokus
I love bobberfett/exman/et all commenting above me with nothing meaningful to say... it's funny how the biggest defenders of free market capitalism know the least about it.

Heh, the only person who knows nothing about how free market capitalism work is you. Do you even know who molded exec's package? That's board of directors who are appointed by shareholders. So shareholders are indirectly responsible for a package that rewards risky/dangerious bets. In addition, when the company gives a package that rewards risky bets, or the execs make risky bets, shareholders can easily sell the stock and punish the company for making those bad decisions. Finally, who are you gonna blame if you invest on something and don't know what's going on.

The free market worked perfectly by punishing stockholders who didn't do their homework, and didn't participate in corporate governance to ensure execs do everything with shareholder's interests in mind.
 
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