Info PSA- Public impeachments start today- UPDATE 2/5/2020- Trump wins.

[cytg111]

What has stopped past administrations and past Congresses from giving this kind of power to Presidents has been the certain knowledge that their opposition would also have this power when they got elected into office. So that the Republicans have done this means that either 1) they are shortsighted and stupid, or 2) they believe they can now remain in power forever.
I'm going with #2.

100%.
Voter suppression FAIL
Gerrymandering FAIL
GOPTV FAIL... well maybe not.
Now they go for the crown.
You have be blind - and Trump one eyed if you cant see that...

 

[fskimospy]

What has stopped past administrations and past Congresses from giving this kind of power to Presidents has been the certain knowledge that their opposition would also have this power when they got elected into office. So that the Republicans have done this means that either 1) they are shortsighted and stupid, or 2) they believe they can now remain in power forever.
I'm going with #2.

My guess is more that polarization, ideological purity tests in primaries, and wingnut welfare has warped the incentives of Republicans to behave ethically and responsibly. If you toe the line and acquit Trump despite his obvious criminal behavior you get to keep your seat in Congress. If/when you leave if you've played ball all these years you'll get set up with some cushy lobbying or consulting job from a right wing organization and be set for life. If you don't, they will set out to destroy you.

 

[nOOky]

The precedent will be set after they quickly acquit Trump. Just don't whine when the same thing happens in reverse. Be careful what you wish for. With the country going away from these old white stodgy conservatives as time marches on the revenge will be sweet.

 

[fleshconsumed]

You're right, control isn't enough you need the 67 vote majority.

It's really sad, honestly. The founders didn't envision this level of corruption.. Or, perhaps, they hoped we'd adjust our founding document to fit the times.

Since impeachment starts in the house all you need is to control the house to squash any investigation in the wrong doing and if you don't control the house, the 2/3rds of the Senate requirement practically guarantees that impeachment is dead so long as the party stands behind its President.

My guess is more that polarization, ideological purity tests in primaries, and wingnut welfare has warped the incentives of Republicans to behave ethically and responsibly. If you toe the line and acquit Trump despite his obvious criminal behavior you get to keep your seat in Congress. If/when you leave if you've played ball all these years you'll get set up with some cushy lobbying or consulting job from a right wing organization and be set for life. If you don't, they will set out to destroy you.

What I do not understand is that with so many of the GOP Senators and Representatives so close to retirement, a lot of them do not need the senate seat/cushy lobbyist/consulting gig, they could just... vote for impeachment and retire. Alexander Lamar is 79 years old, old enough to retire, and he'll have lifetime pension and healthcare taken of, he does not need another job, why not just do the right thing and ride into the sunset? It's just hard to understand how party loyalty is more important than squashing obvious corruption by the President.

 

[Vic]

Since impeachment starts in the house all you need is to control the house to squash any investigation in the wrong doing and if you don't control the house, the 2/3rds of the Senate requirement practically guarantees that impeachment is dead so long as the party stands behind its President.


What I do not understand is that with so many of the GOP Senators and Representatives so close to retirement, a lot of them do not need the senate seat/cushy lobbyist/consulting gig, they could just... vote for impeachment and retire. Alexander Lamar is 79 years old, old enough to retire, and he'll have lifetime pension and healthcare taken of, he does not need another job, why not just do the right thing and ride into the sunset? It's just hard to understand how party loyalty is more important than squashing obvious corruption by the President.

In politics, the answer to any question that begins with why is almost always money.

 

[IronWing]

The precedent will be set after they quickly acquit Trump. Just don't whine when the same thing happens in reverse. Be careful what you wish for. With the country going away from these old white stodgy conservatives as time marches on the revenge will be sweet.

Nah, somehow we always make more old stodgy conservatives. The boomers promised to overthrow the establishment and bring forth a new age yet here we are. Communists come and go but the fascists are always with us.

 

[fleshconsumed]

In politics, the answer to any question that begins with why is almost always money.

Again, would be true if they were young, but I'm pretty certain that average senator age is past 65, they do not need the money.

 

[HomerJS]

This has been discussed to death. It is Not illegal to reveal the whistleblower's name.

That is a myth. I'm not saying if it should or not, but it isn't illegal to do so.

Why do you think Rand Paul is trying to get someone else to do his dirty work instead of just naming the whistleblower himself?

 

[HomerJS]

No idea why so many people seem surprised at the results, it was a slam dunk before it ever began. Unless the Democrats could come up with actual high crimes and misdemeanors and get some kind of bipartisan support it was never going to happen.

Since you think there were no high crimes, you would have been cool if Obama during the 2016 election had held up aid to Israel unless the Mossad got him a copy of Trump's pee tape?

 

[Jhhnn]

No idea why so many people seem surprised at the results, it was a slam dunk before it ever began. Unless the Democrats could come up with actual high crimes and misdemeanors and get some kind of bipartisan support it was never going to happen.

The GOP can't turn on Trump because he owns the base, heart & soul. He'll lay waste to those who turn against him & they all know it.

 

[Wreckem]

When this is all over, I wouldn’t be surprised if McConnell brings a resolution to censure Warren for impugning the Chief Justice during an impeachment trial.

Probably got her some votes from the “Dems need to stack the courts” crowd.

it will take two to three generations of Democrat rule to undo the conservative and in large part unqualified nominee they were stacked on the courts by Trump.

Obamas Supreme Court nominee wasn’t the only judicial seat the GOP stole... they stole a large part of the judiciary with their tactics under Obama.

 

[Vic]

Again, would be true if they were young, but I'm pretty certain that average senator age is past 65, they do not need the money.

Greedy people always need money.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

The precedent will be set after they quickly acquit Trump. Just don't whine when the same thing happens in reverse. Be careful what you wish for. With the country going away from these old white stodgy conservatives as time marches on the revenge will be sweet.

TBH I think if they vote to acquit, it'll be the death knell of the Republican party. Next 2-3 elections will go the way of D's, and 12 years in the conservative minority will become even more of a minority, and whatever remains of the party will be forced to rebrand themselves.... this was their last chance to do so as-is and save the party, IMHO.

 

[interchange]

This argument is in many ways worse because it says using your powers of office to rig your own re-election is not impeachable.

As I mentioned before by this same logic diverting federal funds to run ads for your campaign would also not be impeachable. Ordering the FBI to open investigations into your opponents isn’t impeachable. Telling Israel that no more US aid is coming until they declare your opponent an anti-Semite isn’t impeachable. This is not lost on Trump either, I suspect you will see his corruption kick into overdrive now.

No matter what happens in November a door has now been opened that we basically can’t close. The president is now able to use the office to advance their own personal interests instead of those of the country. This will end badly.

I don't necessarily agree. Since impeachment is political, precedent is not so sticky of an issue as it would be in court making up case law. It's obviously relevant and becomes the source of making arguments. But what we have here quite transparently is a choice to disregard the Constitution and play one party politics with nonsense arguments being made to give surface credibility to those in the public who would care but are uninterested or unable to see through them. If a new Congress actually cares about following the Constitution and someone does what Trump does again, they'll remove him or her regardless of what this Senate does. If this Senate represents a more lasting change toward absolute partisan political choices with no actual intent to follow the law, then that line has already been crossed and the precedent doesn't make a difference except to make it easier to repeat. And personally I would call that the death of our government regardless of whether the structure goes unchallenged formally and even Trump loses the next election to a Democrat without any further fireworks.

 

[fskimospy]

I don't necessarily agree. Since impeachment is political, precedent is not so sticky of an issue as it would be in court making up case law. It's obviously relevant and becomes the source of making arguments. But what we have here quite transparently is a choice to disregard the Constitution and play one party politics with nonsense arguments being made to give surface credibility to those in the public who would care but are uninterested or unable to see through them. If a new Congress actually cares about following the Constitution and someone does what Trump does again, they'll remove him or her regardless of what this Senate does. If this Senate represents a more lasting change toward absolute partisan political choices with no actual intent to follow the law, then that line has already been crossed and the precedent doesn't make a difference except to make it easier to repeat. And personally I would call that the death of our government regardless of whether the structure goes unchallenged formally and even Trump loses the next election to a Democrat without any further fireworks.

I agree with you that precedent doesn't matter as much here in the sense that it is binding, but as impeachment is very much political the norms of acceptable presidential behavior matter a lot. If you can't get consensus on explicitly trying to rig your own re-election the first time you're almost certainly not getting it the second, the third, etc. Presidents have been historically constrained not so much by Congress explicitly as by what they thought Congress or the public would tolerate. I imagine if you ask any of the previous presidents if they thought they could get away with rigging their own re-election they would have said no. Now, the next president knows better.

As to whether or not our system of government as we have historically understood it is dead I think there's a good case for the answer being yes but I think we would agree that's probably been the case since before Trump, his egregious corruption just brought it into the open.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I agree with you that precedent doesn't matter as much here in the sense that it is binding, but as impeachment is very much political the norms of acceptable presidential behavior matter a lot. If you can't get consensus on explicitly trying to rig your own re-election the first time you're almost certainly not getting it the second, the third, etc. Presidents have been historically constrained not so much by Congress explicitly as by what they thought Congress or the public would tolerate. I imagine if you ask any of the previous presidents if they thought they could get away with rigging their own re-election they would have said no. Now, the next president knows better.

As to whether or not our system of government as we have historically understood it is dead I think there's a good case for the answer being yes but I think we would agree that's probably been the case since before Trump, his egregious corruption just brought it into the open.

Given this is the first time a president has been Impeached for it, I'd wager most wouldn't have thought that it'd be acceptable for a President to abuse his power to affect his own re-election, but now we know it is acceptable (or at least we will have our answer to that question in about 6 hours)

 

[Bitek]

TBH I think if they vote to acquit, it'll be the death knell of the Republican party. Next 2-3 elections will go the way of D's, and 12 years in the conservative minority will become even more of a minority, and whatever remains of the party will be forced to rebrand themselves.... this was their last chance to do so as-is and save the party, IMHO.

I think the unfairness of the electoral college, fake news, and liars and morons on social media will prevent this from happening.

IMO, our "democracy" is hobbled and is exposed for being bullshit for a large part.

A trump win in Nov proves it's window dressing covering up rampant corruption and kleptocracy by advantaged powers.

His only "genius" to see it's weakness for what it was and not have any moralistic or patriotic inhibitions for exploiting it for all it's worth.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think the unfairness of the electoral college, fake news, and liars and morons on social media will prevent this from happening.

IMO, our "democracy" is hobbled and is exposed for being bullshit for a large part.

A trump win in Nov proves it's window dressing covering up rampant corruption and kleptocracy by advantaged powers.

I might take one step higher, and say that our technological evolution has surpassed our social evolution so far that we're not longer able to cope. We as a species lack the ability to make use of global communications without destroying ourselves.

 

[Bitek]

I might take one step higher, and say that our technological evolution has surpassed our social evolution so far that we're not longer able to cope. We as a species lack the ability to make use of global communications without destroying ourselves.

Hard not to argue seeing the great unraveling of Western democracy going on right now.

 

[SMOGZINN]

TBH I think if they vote to acquit, it'll be the death knell of the Republican party. Next 2-3 elections will go the way of D's, and 12 years in the conservative minority will become even more of a minority, and whatever remains of the party will be forced to rebrand themselves.... this was their last chance to do so as-is and save the party, IMHO.

You forgot that this impeachment was in large about if it was okay for a President to rig his own election. The Senate has given him the go ahead. Our Democracy is now about who can wrest the most power from their office, and that is going to mainly be affected by who controls that power. Republicans for the most part hold the power currently, and so can now use that power to make sure that don't lose it. This is literally how democracies fail.

A reminder to all, there is no longer any limits. You can now do anything to win an election, as long as you are an incumbent of the party currently holding the majority.

 

[Jaskalas]

ALL THE WITNESSES: Ok we all agree. This is what happened.
...

SNL needs to make THAT a skit.

 

[ewdotson]

Given this is the first time a president has been Impeached for it, I'd wager most wouldn't have thought that it'd be acceptable for a President to abuse his power to affect his own re-election, but now we know it is acceptable (or at least we will have our answer to that question in about 6 hours)

We'll know it's acceptable for GOP presidents. Seriously, don't underestimate how post-truth the GOP has become and their ability to shamelessly reverse their arguments on a dime if doing so favors them.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

We'll know it's acceptable for GOP presidents. Seriously, don't underestimate how post-truth the GOP has become and their ability to shamelessly reverse their arguments on a dime if doing so favors them.

Nah I already know that, I guess I'm just ashamed at being a member of a species that can be so logically disconnected. It's remarkable we even got as far as we did.

 

[interchange]

As to whether or not our system of government as we have historically understood it is dead I think there's a good case for the answer being yes but I think we would agree that's probably been the case since before Trump, his egregious corruption just brought it into the open.

I am uncertain if my conflict with this is because I am uncertain if this is true or if I am afraid of the certainty I have. And if I would come to accept it as true if I am personally so resolute as our founders to act upon that knowledge. If I die a coward, I do believe at least I will know that the cowardice is my own choosing.

 

[K1052]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1223290139679567872

Cut to John Bolton quietly humming "The Room Where It Happens" from Hamilton.

The GOP was looking to maybe dispose of this today but I doubt that will happen. Probably heading into next week.