Ps4 ps2 emulation

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lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Read an article recently discussing the thought that emulation may be coming soon to the PS4 and reason being that the newly released digital star wars games were products from the earlier generations and likely they are being sold as the original products wrapped in an emulator.
 

SPBHM

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
5,066
418
126
According to this post: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/gflops-last-gen-and-current-gen.55710/

Cell does about 230 SP GFLOPS while Jaguar does 102. You have to remember that Cell is more a vector processor than a general purpose processor though. Using the GPU would be an intriguing idea.

and an actual test by Ubisoft with the PS3 CPU performing higher (not much)

ubisoft-cloth-simulation-ps4-vs-ps3.jpg
 

Magic Carpet

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2011
3,477
233
106
and an actual test by Ubisoft with the PS3 CPU performing higher
Yeah, PS3 was so advanced back in the time. I remember people were buying it exclusively for the Cell CPU just to run Linux on it. Does anyone want to run Linux on PS4? :cool:
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
and an actual test by Ubisoft with the PS3 CPU performing higher (not much)

The problem with this analysis is it's purely theoretical. It shows PS3's Cell as ~3X faster than Xbox 360 and yet almost all cross-platform title ran better on Xbox 360. One of the major reasons Xbox 360 was so popular last gen is because outside of 1st party titles, Xbox 360's games ran faster and/or had higher IQ/textures. It wasn't until very late in that console's cycle that PS3 started to catch up with cross-platform parity.

Cell does about 230 SP GFLOPS while Jaguar does 102. You have to remember that Cell is more a vector processor than a general purpose processor though. Using the GPU would be an intriguing idea.

Per Wiki on the Cell, "At 3.2 GHz, each SPE gives a theoretical 25.6 GFLOPS of single precision performance."

There are 3 other big points:

#1 per IBM: "Tests by IBM show that the SPEs can reach 98% of their theoretical peak performance running optimized parallel matrix multiplication". That means 98% using a niche use case. In the real world? WAY less than 98% of its theoretical throughput. Therefore, simply taking the maximum theoretical throughput of the PowerPC main CPU core (PPE) + 8x SPEs is pure marketing BS for this reason alone.

#2. "This Cell configuration has one PPE on the core, with eight physical SPEs in silicon.[19] In the PlayStation 3, one SPE is locked-out during the test process, a practice which helps to improve manufacturing yields, and another one is reserved for the OS, leaving 6 free SPEs to be used by games' code"

I believe later on in PS3's cycle, they may have unlocked 7 SPEs but it was never full 8. This has to be accounted for in the real world as the Cell on PS4 could never access all of the theoretical SPEs.

#3. Real world IPC of the Cell was and is horrible for games. Why does this matter? It matters A LOT when comparing the Cell to x8 Jaguar because it means the Cell's theoretical GFLOPs throughput can not be taken at face value in the real world, even with full on optimization. Xbox 360's 3-core PowerPCs were not even as fast a single core in a typical Core i7 920:

Metro 2033 developer stated the the entire Xbox 360 CPU was only as good as 70-85% of a single Nehalem Core i7 (say i7 920):
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-interview-metro-2033?page=4

This means the single PPE core of the Cell (without the 6 SPEs) was garbage, basically 1/3 the horsepower of the Xbox 360's CPU, and that Xbox 360 CPU was a joke compared to a 1st generation i7. Not looking like a powerful gaming CPU that Sony claimed.

In other words, I don't even know how the person in your thread derived 230 GFLOPs for the PS4 but even if you take the throughput of the main PowerPC core + 6-7 SPEs, the theoretical throughput needs to be adjusted dramatically for real world standard gaming code against a Jaguar CPU core.

Since MS was able to emulate PowerPC code on x86 Jaguar, if the PS3 had just PowerPC cores, PS4 could also easily emulate most PS3 games. Since the coding for games on PS3 involves a combination of PowerPC + specialized SPE units, it would be very expensive to convert all the code. Could PS4 have the power to run emulated PS3 games though? Possibly. Why? Because most PS3 games look worse than Xbox 360 games, which means to achieve the same level of graphics + FPS as a PS3 game would be a walk in the park for PS4. The horsepower is easily there but the problem is converting the code would be prohibitively expensive. If you threw 1000s of software engineers on the problem, could you get PS4 to run PS3 games? I think you could since no PS3 game is graphically impressive compared to the CPU+GPU horsepower available on PS4 and comparing the best ever PS3 game to the best Xbox 360 game.

Sony - "We are just taking two different approaches. Unfortunately there are just not sufficient enough software engineers in the world for everyone to do everything. Each platform holder has to make their choices, we made one and they made another. Their choice is entirely legitimate, and I think our choice is legitimate, too. In some ways it is quite nice to have points of difference between the two platforms, and people will decide which approach suits them best."
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/play...t-s-good-we-re-doing-different-things/0151317
 
Last edited:

Techhog

Platinum Member
Sep 11, 2013
2,834
2
26
The problem with this analysis is it's purely theoretical. It shows PS3's Cell as ~3X faster than Xbox 360 and yet almost all cross-platform title ran better on Xbox 360. One of the major reasons Xbox 360 was so popular last gen is because outside of 1st party titles, Xbox 360's games ran faster and/or had higher IQ/textures. It wasn't until very late in that console's cycle that PS3 started to catch up with cross-platform parity.



Per Wiki on the Cell, "At 3.2 GHz, each SPE gives a theoretical 25.6 GFLOPS of single precision performance."

There are 3 other big points:

#1 per IBM: "Tests by IBM show that the SPEs can reach 98% of their theoretical peak performance running optimized parallel matrix multiplication". That means 98% using a niche use case. In the real world? WAY less than 98% of its theoretical throughput. Therefore, simply taking the maximum theoretical throughput of the PowerPC main CPU core (PPE) + 8x SPEs is pure marketing BS for this reason alone.

#2. "This Cell configuration has one PPE on the core, with eight physical SPEs in silicon.[19] In the PlayStation 3, one SPE is locked-out during the test process, a practice which helps to improve manufacturing yields, and another one is reserved for the OS, leaving 6 free SPEs to be used by games' code"

I believe later on in PS3's cycle, they may have unlocked 7 SPEs but it was never full 8. This has to be accounted for in the real world as the Cell on PS4 could never access all of the theoretical SPEs.

#3. Real world IPC of the Cell was and is horrible for games. Why does this matter? It matters A LOT when comparing the Cell to x8 Jaguar because it means the Cell's theoretical GFLOPs throughput can not be taken at face value in the real world, even with full on optimization. Xbox 360's 3-core PowerPCs were not even as fast a single core in a typical Core i7 920:

Metro 2033 developer stated the the entire Xbox 360 CPU was only as good as 70-85% of a single Nehalem Core i7 (say i7 920):
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-interview-metro-2033?page=4

This means the single PPE core of the Cell (without the 6 SPEs) was garbage, basically 1/3 the horsepower of the Xbox 360's CPU, and that Xbox 360 CPU was a joke compared to a 1st generation i7. Not looking like a powerful gaming CPU that Sony claimed.

In other words, I don't even know how the person in your thread derived 230 GFLOPs for the PS4 but even if you take the throughput of the main PowerPC core + 6-7 SPEs, the theoretical throughput needs to be adjusted dramatically for real world standard gaming code against a Jaguar CPU core.

Since MS was able to emulate PowerPC code on x86 Jaguar, if the PS3 had just PowerPC cores, PS4 could also easily emulate most PS3 games. Since the coding for games on PS3 involves a combination of PowerPC + specialized SPE units, it would be very expensive to convert all the code. Could PS4 have the power to run emulated PS3 games though? Possibly. Why? Because most PS3 games look worse than Xbox 360 games, which means to achieve the same level of graphics + FPS as a PS3 game would be a walk in the park for PS4. The horsepower is easily there but the problem is converting the code would be prohibitively expensive. If you threw 1000s of software engineers on the problem, could you get PS4 to run PS3 games? I think you could since no PS3 game is graphically impressive compared to the CPU+GPU horsepower available on PS4 and comparing the best ever PS3 game to the best Xbox 360 game.

Sony - "We are just taking two different approaches. Unfortunately there are just not sufficient enough software engineers in the world for everyone to do everything. Each platform holder has to make their choices, we made one and they made another. Their choice is entirely legitimate, and I think our choice is legitimate, too. In some ways it is quite nice to have points of difference between the two platforms, and people will decide which approach suits them best."
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/play...t-s-good-we-re-doing-different-things/0151317

The fact that you're talking about graphics as a major factor shows that you know very little about emulation. Using your logic, you should be able to run any Dolphin game at 4k or higher on a low-end Atom without any issues whatsoever.
 

JeffMD

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2002
2,026
19
81
The problem with this analysis is it's purely theoretical. It shows PS3's Cell as ~3X faster than Xbox 360 and yet almost all cross-platform title ran better on Xbox 360. One of the major reasons Xbox 360 was so popular last gen is because outside of 1st party titles, Xbox 360's games ran faster and/or had higher IQ/textures.

The reason you saw a lot of cross platforms favor the xbox is because xbox architecture was very close to an actual pc while PS3 still spread out its resources over several different processors. Much like the ps2, the ps3 was a complete bitch to program for. Some programmers were more gifted then others (square enix) while others took a while (RDR was at a particular disadvantage on ps3 where we saw a resolution drop, while gta5 were twins).

This is also probably why we see easier xbox 360 emulation on one, although I still have some doubts on how well it works. The 360/ps3 era ran games on 3ghz processors with little optimization for multi threading. This is why pc ports easily favored more speed per core vs more cores.

Now PS2 emulation is getting pretty easy, I don't think the ps4 should have any issues with it. Most ps2 emulation performance problems on pc come when we try and force higher resolutions and new effects. Unfortunately I am pretty sure the multi processor based PS3 games are still out of reach of the PS4's single cpu design.