PS3 Move vs. X360 Kinect (detailed analysis)

[arredondo]

The EyeToy is Kinect circa 2003 when it came out for the PS2. The PS3 had its version in the PSEye near launch. The Kinect is an extension of that. Here's a Virtua Fighter game made for it back in the day.

 

[Tristicus]

The EyeToy is Kinect circa 2003 when it came out for the PS2. The PS3 had its version in the PSEye near launch. The Kinect is an extension of that. Here's a Virtua Fighter game made for it back in the day.

That looks more responsive than Kinect:

http://www.joystiq.com/video/d5481fd7

Oh, but one thing. If Rockstar uses connect, and makes me able to play GTA with it, I'll buy that shit instantly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yUbzcatvCw&feature=player_embedded

 

[purbeast0]

/facepalm at the fighting game on kinect.

words cannot describe how full of fail that crap looks.

way more lag than even the wii, and it is registering shit he isn't even doing.

 

[Tom]

The Wii controller is very accurate but I think there's some misunderstanding about how motion control is implemented in games.

In many situations, the motion of the controller is used to select a preprogrammed move, ie a type of punch in boxing, or a general location, ie head or torso. It isn't necessarily used for exact placement or speed in the game world.

But that is game design, it doesn't mean the controlller is not capable of sending more precise info to the game if that is what the programmer wants.

That is going to apply to games using Move or Kinect as well.

 

[purbeast0]

The Wii controller is very accurate but I think there's some misunderstanding about how motion control is implemented in games.

In many situations, the motion of the controller is used to select a preprogrammed move, ie a type of punch in boxing, or a general location, ie head or torso. It isn't necessarily used for exact placement or speed in the game world.

But that is game design, it doesn't mean the controlller is not capable of sending more precise info to the game if that is what the programmer wants.

That is going to apply to games using Move or Kinect as well.

do you really have hard factual proof that it is all game design, and that there is a lot more accuracy to the wii than we've seen? what about the delay from when you move to it actually registers? is that just poor design?

 

[Tom]

do you really have hard factual proof that it is all game design, and that there is a lot more accuracy to the wii than we've seen? what about the delay from when you move to it actually registers? is that just poor design?

I'm not trying to prove anything, just passing on information I've garnered and my personal experience.

In games like Mario Kart and the flying game that is part of Sports Resort, I don't perceive any delay in the relaying of motion control info, seems as instantaneous any other game interface, ie joystick or keyboard. The archery game that comes with Sports Resort also seems to react instantaneously with great accuracy.

Which means the hardware has the capability, which means in a game where there is delay it's most likely because the game designer wanted it that way for some reason, most likely I would guess because of the way the movement is incorporated into the gameplay and animation.

 

[American Gunner]

I personally will not be getting any motion controllers. Even if I end up getting a PS3 I just don't see the need for them.

 

[Dumac]

Here is a very...um..."impressive" kinect demo

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/video-physics-kinect/703804

 

[magomago]

what games exist for move? I'm thinking about picking it up this weekend...i would have had a lot more fun with wii sports and wiiplay had the accurately and control not been shit.

 

[purbeast0]

move isn't out till towards the end of this month, so no you won't be picking it up this weekend.

and why would you pick it up if you have no idea wtf games even exist for it?

 

[Beev]

Apparently every Gamestop manager got a free Kinect. They're going to end up giving away more of those pieces of shit than they sell.

 

[magomago]

move isn't out till towards the end of this month, so no you won't be picking it up this weekend.

and why would you pick it up if you have no idea wtf games even exist for it?

Oh I was confused.

I would pick it up because I liked the concept of the WII, but I didn't feel it was sensitive enough. Do the same thing on the Ps3, have almost no extra lag over a regular controller, take advantage of the ps3's far superior graphics...and we have instant-win.

 

[simonizor]

Here is a very...um..."impressive" kinect demo

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/video-physics-kinect/703804

If impressive is a new word for failure, then sure.. lol

That video makes it look terrible. The motions on the avatars were not fluid at all. There were very jerky, and if they people moved too close together, one of the avatars disappears completely. Then the avatar bends over like it's spine has been cut in half at completely random intervals. Looks like a fucking joke.

 

[BD2003]

do you really have hard factual proof that it is all game design, and that there is a lot more accuracy to the wii than we've seen? what about the delay from when you move to it actually registers? is that just poor design?

It's both. The stock hardware is necessarily limited because all it contains is accelerometers, and cheap ones at that. The fact that it can determine orientation is basically a hack due to the fact that the force of gravity is applying a constant force that when factored out can reliably determine orientation...as long as the remote is stationary. Once it starts moving, the gravitational force is indistinguishable from the acceleration of your motion, and it can really only make very educated guesses at your exact motion...the faster you're moving, the more unreliable. That's where the software comes in. By adding in a delay or lowering the necessity of accuracy the intrinsic crudeness of accelerometers can be somewhat compensated for. The controller is capable of sending *very* precise data, but the more precision you ask for, the less accuracy you get. It's a tradeoff.

When all you're trying to determine is tilt like in Mario kart, it's a simple task and lag isn't necessary. When you're trying to process complex gestures, it falls apart more often than not. The easiest thing to do is just detect fast motion without concern for direction....aka waggle.

 

[magomago]

It's both. The stock hardware is necessarily limited because all it contains is accelerometers, and cheap ones at that. The fact that it can determine orientation is basically a hack due to the fact that the force of gravity is applying a constant force that when factored out can reliably determine orientation...as long as the remote is stationary. Once it starts moving, the gravitational force is indistinguishable from the acceleration of your motion, and it can really only make very educated guesses at your exact motion...the faster you're moving, the more unreliable. That's where the software comes in. By adding in a delay or lowering the necessity of accuracy the intrinsic crudeness of accelerometers can be somewhat compensated for. The controller is capable of sending *very* precise data, but the more precision you ask for, the less accuracy you get. It's a tradeoff.

When all you're trying to determine is tilt like in Mario kart, it's a simple task and lag isn't necessary. When you're trying to process complex gestures, it falls apart more often than not. The easiest thing to do is just detect fast motion without concern for direction....aka waggle.

Which is exactly why i'm so interested in the PSMove

 

[Dumac]

If impressive is a new word for failure, then sure.. lol

That video makes it look terrible. The motions on the avatars were not fluid at all. There were very jerky, and if they people moved too close together, one of the avatars disappears completely. Then the avatar bends over like it's spine has been cut in half at completely random intervals. Looks like a fucking joke.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic

Guess it didn't come through well

 

[Tom]

It's both. The stock hardware is necessarily limited because all it contains is accelerometers, and cheap ones at that. The fact that it can determine orientation is basically a hack due to the fact that the force of gravity is applying a constant force that when factored out can reliably determine orientation...as long as the remote is stationary. Once it starts moving, the gravitational force is indistinguishable from the acceleration of your motion, and it can really only make very educated guesses at your exact motion...the faster you're moving, the more unreliable. That's where the software comes in. By adding in a delay or lowering the necessity of accuracy the intrinsic crudeness of accelerometers can be somewhat compensated for. The controller is capable of sending *very* precise data, but the more precision you ask for, the less accuracy you get. It's a tradeoff.

When all you're trying to determine is tilt like in Mario kart, it's a simple task and lag isn't necessary. When you're trying to process complex gestures, it falls apart more often than not. The easiest thing to do is just detect fast motion without concern for direction....aka waggle.

Besides accelerators the Wii controller has a light sensor, and the motion plus has a gyroscope.

Why do you say the accelerators are "cheap" ? Compared to what ?

All of this discussion is pointless(haha) until the Move and Kinetic are released products with games and we can objectively compare them to the Wii controller.

 

[BD2003]

Besides accelerators the Wii controller has a light sensor, and the motion plus has a gyroscope.

Why do you say the accelerators are "cheap" ? Compared to what ?

All of this discussion is pointless(haha) until the Move and Kinetic are released products with games and we can objectively compare them to the Wii controller.

The IR is virtually irrelevant to the "motion" part of it. That's actually the one part of the wiimote that is quite impressive - the lag there is all software. The gyroscope is the polar opposite of the accelerometer - it directly measure orientation, but does nothing for non-rotational motion. It doesn't "increase" the accuracy of the motion controls as many like to claim - it's just a direct measurement of the orientation that the accelerometers get via a hack.

The accelerometers are cheap because they're shoving 6 of them in a remote that contains a ton of other components and sells at a mass market price. They can't be anything but cheap. They do their job well for what they are, but you're getting far from scientific accuracy here, and an accelerometer is by necessity limited it it's ability to detect gestures. In order to measure at all, it needs to be flexible, and that flexibility inherently reduces accuracy. Move doesn't suffer from that issue - it's measuring the motion directly via the camera. Combined with a gyro, move is a much better solution.

Think about it this way - an accelerometer can't tell the difference between holding the remote flat and still and flipping it around and moving it with a constant acceleration equal to gravity. To it, it's the exact same force, but the exact opposite orientation and it can't distinguish the two. Now multiply that error in each axis, and you can start to see where the problem lies. A gyro can correct for this, but the motionplus gyro can't keep up with fast motion either and needs to be constantly recalibrated itself - so it's really not a reliable correction. For gestures, the camera solution is simply a better one.

 

[blurredvision]

For my money, Move is more promising. It does mimic the Wii in implementation, but does appear to be more powerful in terms of precision and latency. The Kinect just doesn't look like it will move beyond simple hand gestures for games, because it's just not capable. They either need to make people wear special suits or put more cameras at wider angles with more CPU overhead to figure out exactly what's happening.

 

[Drako]

Think about it this way - an accelerometer can't tell the difference between holding the remote flat and still and flipping it around and moving it with a constant acceleration equal to gravity.

LOL

That's why they have both linear and angular (gyroscopic) accelerometers.

They most certainly can tell orientation.

 

[BD2003]

LOL

That's why they have both linear and angular (gyroscopic) accelerometers.

They most certainly can tell orientation.

Except that the ones in the stock Wii remote dont. From the FAQ page of the company that makes the wii remote's accelerometers:

What is an accelerometer and a gyroscope, and how do they differ?

An accelerometer is a sensor that measures acceleration or translational motion. A gyroscope is an angular rate sensor - it measures the rate of angular rotation. While angular accelerometers (devices that measure the rate of change of angular rotation) do exist, they are rarely used. Generally, accelerometers are thought of as devices that measure linear acceleration.

The ADXL330 is a small, thin, low power, complete 3-axis accelerometer with signal conditioned voltage outputs, all on a single monolithic IC. The product measures acceleration with a minimum full-scale range of ±3 g. It can measure the static acceleration of gravity in tilt-sensing applications, as well as dynamic acceleration resulting from motion, shock, or vibration.

I've actually tried to fool the wii remote myself by holding it upside down and pulling up slowly, and it's surprisingly not difficult, although you need the right game. But the point is, there's a whole mess of reasons the Wii remote didnt live up to the promise. It was simply oversold for what it is - it just so happens that the first game (Wii sports), was an incredibly effective tech demo that gave you the impression the remote could really do more than it could. Accelerometers are good for measuring acceleration - theyre only passable for measuring orientation, and you should expect as much from a $7 accelerometer as you should from a $7 microphone - its going to be a very crude instrument that works, but is far from precise.

If people really want gestures and a deeper connection with motion controls, and I'm not sure that they do, cameras are necessary. More than one preferably. In more than one position. As many gyros and accelerometers has possible. It can be done much better - the wii remote is about as advanced for motion controls as the original NES gamepad was for controlling "standard" video games. There's a ton of room for improvement.

 

[magomago]

Besides accelerators the Wii controller has a light sensor, and the motion plus has a gyroscope.

Why do you say the accelerators are "cheap" ? Compared to what ?

All of this discussion is pointless(haha) until the Move and Kinetic are released products with games and we can objectively compare them to the Wii controller.

Tom, you have a good point at your last sentence....however, unless Sony lied to us really well about PSMove during all the demos, and unless user opinions who do get a chance to test it ahead of time are also being hoodwinked, I would say the PSMove should easily be able to be compared to the Wiimote. And its clear its a LOT better technically...and the only reason I care is because I want a good controller in which to interact with games.

To be honest, I'm not sure what to think as far as Kinect is concerned because we keep hearing 'its not fully ready yet'...so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and wait and see. However, I have a feeling that, as a technology, its much more advanced and will take several iterations to get it right (ie: probably going to be for more casual games this time around)

 

[BD2003]

Here's my take: both kinect are move and going to be ridiculous failures.

Kinect is WAY ahead of it's time. Its way overpromising on what it can do, and it's going to have massive drawbacks that not enough people are talking about. Lag isn't going to be the problem, the problem is going to be issues like people sitting down, people moving around, etc. The thing with the wii is that you could play it how you wanted, it never had to ask too much of you. The fact that it was limited was a good thing - simpler means less to go wrong. I expect kinect to be looked back on as a fuckup on the same level as the virtual boy - a one trick pony gimmick that required too many sacrifices in order for you to enjoy half assed games. The only thing kinect has going for it is the potential killer app in dance central, but unless real gamers have a reason to want to buy it and show it off, it's DOA.

Move OTOH has far more potential as an actual gaming device, and is basically what you'd expect from the 2nd gen of wii style motion controls. The problem is that Sony seems to have about as much dedication and marketing behind it as a light gun peripheral, and I wouldnt expect it to be received any better. It won't be a fuckup like kinect, people will just be completely oblivious to it in a years time.

 

[arredondo]

I think the Move will have more of a "core gamer" impact than you think (though casuals have the Wii and barely buy games for that). As more online titles offer it as an option (i.e. KZ3), opponents on pads who get destroyed easily will gravitate towards getting it themselves or complain enough to have Move-only added as a server option to keep things fair. Either way, it will make its presence felt enough to perhaps reach a modest level of success.