PS3 Move vs. X360 Kinect (detailed analysis)

[Tristicus]

Okay, so the article didn't know what they were talking about.

 

[Kromis]

Straight from sony.



http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html

Holy dog shit, that's news to me!

 

[arredondo]

If you need a visual example of how much Move can add to the core game experience in unique ways, you need to check out this new tech demo video. Imagine playing Metal Gear Rising with the first example shown:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uF_fasPphc

 

[arredondo]

ign.uk has a comparison article that mostly focuses on Kinect:

We see how Microsoft's motion controller shapes up against the opposition.

UK, July 30, 2010
by Tom Butler
IGN UK

Now that Microsoft has finally planted its flag in the sand by releasing the pricing of Kinect, we were keen to find out what it had to offer for £129.99. This coming festive season will be a keenly fought battle of the motion sensors, but how does Kinect compare to Move and Wii?

With a hint of festive anachronism, Microsoft held its Christmas Showcase at the Saatchi Gallery on a stifling mid-July morning to show off its new product range that's designed to get parents parting with their hard-earned cash this coming Yuletide.

Traditionally the show is held to show off their products to buyers, gift-guide writers, and parenting groups, but this year Microsoft wanted to let the unlucky few who didn't make it to E3 the chance to have a play with Kinect.

After first being introduced to the new Kinect-enabled Xbox Live interface which allows you to control online content with voice commands, we were ushered through into a much larger room dominated by a stage with Dance Central being demoed by a trio of lithe dancers bopping away to Lady Gaga.

Volunteers to step up onto the stage to have a go at Dance Central were thin on the ground, but everyone else was keen to have a go at the four other games on offer – Kinect Sports, Kinect Adventures, Joy Ride and Kinectimals – to finally get a chance to see whether Kinect can justify its £130 price tag.

Joy Ride – a cartoony kart-racer - was surprisingly difficult to control, and most of the seasoned gaming journos spent half the time spinning off the track. Waving your limbs around in front of a screen, regardless of how simplified the game is, isn't an intuitive control system.

The system's responsiveness also seemed a little off balance and only time will tell whether this gets easier with practice. You can see the potential for Kinect, but it feels like Microsoft was still either keeping its cards close to its chest, or had over-promised with the initial reveal.

Kinect Sports and Adventures seemed a better fit for the new interface, but for most of the time trying the ball-dodging mini-game in Adventures was spent flailing around at random. Whether this was caused by the infamous 'lag' that seemed to plague early demos was difficult to tell, but when you have to resort to waving your arms like a semaphore enthusiast at a rave whilst you're trying to do something as simple as bat a ball back at the screen it can get frustrating.

Our final demo was with Kinectimals, which was shown to us in a curtained off area of the showfloor, seemingly to enable voice commands to be heard by Kinect. The system really struggled in the darkened area, with the sounds of Lady Gaga still heard through the thick curtains, and the on-screen lion cub responded to the demonstrator's commands only sporadically.

It seems silence and solitude are needed by Kinect for optimum performance - conditions seldom found in homes with young children – Kinectimal's target audience.

From what we were shown, there is little that Kinect has to offer for the hardcore gamer from its opening titles, with the casual gamer clearly their number one target.

The games being shown were clearly just designed to demonstrate the peripheral's capability at a very basic level, but until Microsoft begins to utilise some of Kinect's more exciting features in a – dare we say it – cooler way, then it may struggle to convince even its most fervent fans to part with £130 when it finally becomes available later this year.

As it stands, PlayStation's Move looks a much more accessible piece of hardware and the tech demos we've seen blew Kinect's flailing displays out of the water. Nintendo is still ahead of the game when it comes to motion sensing, and both Sony and Microsoft still have a long way to go to catch up, but so far Kinect seems like the lame donkey in the race.

http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/110/1108080p1.html

 

[Beev]

I've got my lawnchair, beer, and popcorn in preparation for seeing who will fail faster. So far I'm betting on Kinect.

 

[JTsyo]

Contrary to what the gaming companies think, I don't motion control is the future. I think it's just a way for them to sell more hardware. When I play games, I want precision, not sloppy controls. Playing Zelda on the Wii I would look for the smallest action I could do to get the desired effect, instead of swing the sword around like crazy. There's probably a place for them in workout type genres but I don't feel it's a good substitute for controllers in the current general genres.

 

[bfdd]

I want the kinect, but not for games. I want full voice control over my 360 in the dashboard. I want to say "netflix" and have netflix load. I want to say "Caddyshack" and have it play caddyshack inside netflix. I want that kind of voice control and if the kinect can offer I might be purchasing it.

 

[Tristicus]

Contrary to what the gaming companies think, I don't motion control is the future. I think it's just a way for them to sell more hardware. When I play games, I want precision, not sloppy controls. Playing Zelda on the Wii I would look for the smallest action I could do to get the desired effect, instead of swing the sword around like crazy. There's probably a place for them in workout type genres but I don't feel it's a good substitute for controllers in the current general genres.

 

[Bman123]

Kinect will be better then move but I tell ya what nintendo must be very flattered with everyone jocking their style.

 

[arredondo]

^^^ Nintendo made modern motion gaming popular, but the Eye Toy came out on the PS2 well before it. Sony isn't completely new to motion gaming by any means.

A new comparison article between the Move and Kinect from Ars Technia is up:

The Nintendo Wii has enjoyed amazing success this generation, bridging the gap between hardcore and casual gamers. The low-cost console's innovative motion controls expanded the audience for games, and it looked as if Sony and Microsoft would never catch up in the United States. Both Microsoft and Sony ultimately decided that there's something to the whole motion control thing, however, and have announced products that will soon see them following in the Wii's footsteps.

Sony's entry into the motion control race is the Move, a collection of devices that work together to create motion controls that are more precise than what Nintendo can offer, with games that enjoy high-definition graphics and better frame rates than the Wii can deliver. Microsoft's motion effort takes a different tack, using a sort of camera that will sit under your television and allow you to interact with your games by moving your body and waving your hands. In essence, Microsoft's Kinect makes you the controller. Make no mistake, the Move and Kinect are me-too products. It's no coincidence that both motion control schemes follow on the heels of the Wii's success. The question is how well each product will engage with the Wii's strengths and weaknesses in order to carve out its own success.

After looking at the final pricing from Microsoft and Sony, playing many games on both technologies, and getting a feel for what both companies are after, we've come to this conclusion: Sony's strategy is going to offer more to a wider variety of gamers. That's not to say that it will be more popular, sell more, or make more money for third-party developers—it's just that for our audience, Sony is the better bet as of this moment.

Here's why.

It's cheaper
At its very cheapest, Microsoft's Kinect is $150 for the hardware. Sony, on the other hand, offers a bundle with the PlayStation Eye, a Move controller, and a game for $100. Sure, you won't have a Navigation controller, but even with the extra cost of buying one you'll be under the $150 asking price for the Kinect. You'll also be able to use one of your existing PlayStation controllers for a Navigation controller if you'd like. And if you already have the camera, the cost is even less.

Consumers are very price conscious right now, and it's either $150 for the Kinect, or $300 for the new 360 system with the Kinect bundled in. That isn't cheap, especially when the market Microsoft seems to be going after is already so dominated by Nintendo's $200 Wii, which has a stronger library of motion-based games, and is probably already in the home of a large percentage of casual and family-friendly gamers. You can also play most Wii games sitting or standing—the game doesn't have to coded one way or the other; and the Wii requires less space. Finally, you can play with up to four players. So the advantages the Nintendo Wii holds over the Kinect are many.

You can argue that Microsoft is delivering high-definition graphics, but hasn't Nintendo proven that most people simply don't care? Yes, the pricing structure changes if you split the cost between two players, or if you buy the system with the hardware, but on the shelf, the price of the Move hardware is significantly lower if you already own the system. The Kinect is the most expensive motion controller, and that's not a good place to be in this economy. Microsoft seems to be going after the same casual gamers that Nintendo so easily locked up, which brings us to our second point...

Move will engage the hardcore gamers
Microsoft wants your daughter to pet a cheetah with the Kinect. Sony, in contrast, wants you to play Time Crisis Razing Storm, Killzone 3, LittleBigPlanet 2, SOCOM 4, Echochrome 2, Resident Evil 5, and Heavy Rain with the PlayStation Move. Microsoft could very well have a large collection of hardcore games being worked on for the Kinect, but how many can you name right now? [Note: Our own Andrew Webster brings up Child of Eden, but that's also coming to the Move.] How long will we wait until they are ready?

I've been lucky enough to spend a good amount of time with both technologies, and while I was waving and dancing and swaying in front of the Kinect I was having a good time, but it was clear that this wasn't a technology that was designed with gamers like me in mind.

On the other hand, playing Time Crisis on the PlayStation 3 with the Move at E3 felt great, with the trigger firing my gun and the large top button used for cover, and the graphics were much better than what similar light-gun style games on the Wii can deliver. I look forward to re-playing Resident Evil 5 and Heavy Rain with Motion Controls. I played SOCOM 4 with the Move and loved using it to aim and tell my teammates where to go.

The Move fits in with existing games you enjoy playing, and it makes sense to take a certain kind of game and add motion control on top of it to enhance the experience. Take Echochrome 2: that's a game that could certainly work with a standard controller, but the use of a controller that mimics a physical flashlight makes the mechanic click. As it has shown with Killzone 3, Sony can easily add motion controls to any of its most popular series. Microsoft does not have this advantage.

Sony has a solid plan to bring in both the hardcore and the casual gamer with the PlayStation Move, at a lower price than Microsoft. It's not just talk either, these are games we've played that will be released this year. What games does the Kinect have on the way for older gamers who don't want to dance or practice Yoga? Sony is doing some serious counter-programming here; if you can't fight the Wii for casual gamers, create something that will engage the hardcore. It's a smart play, and one that Microsoft may not be able to match for a very long time.

You have buttons
At E3 we were invited to a Microsoft party to try out a series of Kinect games, and Turn 10 was demoing the Kinect hardware with Forza. They couldn't tell us if this was going to be a new game, if it was going to be a patch, or when it was coming... it was just a tech demo at that point. I held out my arms and pantomimed turning a steering wheel and was delighted to see the car turn just as I expected to. The effect was wonderful, and felt great. The only problem was that the game handled acceleration and braking for the player.

We were only told that they were looking at multiple ways to handle acceleration and braking. After pressing for specifics and getting none, the room became a bit tense. It was hard to believe that the team behind one of the best racing games ever made, published by Microsoft, could give us no idea about how we would tell the car to go faster. Could it really be possible they didn't have the answer yet?

Look at how many games being shown for the Kinect are on rails. A Star Wars game has been shown in which you destroy a series of droids, and then your character kind of scoots forward to move to the next scene. We played games that looked and played very much like Wii Sports. Microsoft has yet to show a single game with a character that moves around in a conventional way. Think about it: how can you control a character in a third-person game using only hand and arm movements?

Developers are going to have to come up with all new ways to interact with games, and so far no one has a compelling answer to these questions. Nothing anyone knows about game design works with the Kinect, while the Move can be adapted to nearly any style of game.

Sony's hardware allows you to easily control the players on the screen, and the inclusion of an analog stick and actual buttons means that you can mix and match motion control with more conventional mechanics. This gives developers many more options, and won't force them to come up with brand new solutions to basic problems. This is a huge advantage, and one that will become more evident as games are released on both systems.

So what now?
Developers had a rough time coming up with games that don't simply use waggle controls for the Nintendo Wii, and there are precious few that understand how to create a compelling experience on the iPhone or iPad. If motion controls and touchscreens are already such a challenge, a 3D Eyetoy-like device with no actual buttons or tactile feedback of any kind is going to be even trickier. The Kinect poses a major challenge for everyone involved.

Kinect developers will eventually come out with something more than casual games that mimic what we've already played before, but it will be a long struggle. In the meantime, Sony will enjoy sales of a broad slate of games for both hardcore and casual gamers. To put it simply: the company already knows how to make the car move forward.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

^
agreed with everything except for maybe price. i don't think it will play as big a factor as they do.

 

[herkulease]

the Ars Technica article reads full of duh.

the move is essentially the wii but on the ps3 with better graphics.
At this point I'd full expect developers to be able to easily patch or work a wand/nunchuck into their game easily.

I understand the press comparing the kinect and move as they are late comers but the kinect is something entirely different. Same concept of motion controls but its forcing developers to work. I'd rather see a wii vs. move comparison. besides obvious graphics. what does the move bring/do that hte wii hasn't already done. something a long those line.

but if they are gonna compare kinect/move I'd think it would be better for them to have put out a more recent comparison. @gamescom microsoft and other devs are showing numerous games. Supposedly things are more polished than they were @ E3 which was 2 months ago. sony is also showing stuff too. As the move release next month. THings are probably being packed in china. So it is likely near final. Maybe they don't have access to gamescom? I'm not sure.

 

[arredondo]

Then they can compare Kinect to the EyeToy/PSEye. Kinect isn't "completely" different since the basic concept has been around (but under utilized) for years. Sony's engineers passed on it as their main motion tech this gen because of the very limitations mentioned in these articles. Here is stuff from the old PS2 days from just one game:

Kinetic 1

Kinetic 2

Kinetic 3

 

[purbeast0]

PS Move looks to be a lot more than "Wii HD" ... the accuracy on the Move, from what people have been saying, is MUCH more 1-to-1 than the wii, which isn't saying much because the wii isnt even remotely close.

 

[Tristicus]

The accuracy on the move IS 95% 1:1 (if that makes sense). The Wii can't touch it. Now, I've obviously not played it, but that is what has been shown off. I was even laughing at the lag in the Ubisoft TRAILER that they COULD HAVE EDITED for Kinect to show off that fighting game that copies the Sony one 360....pitiful really. Move > Kinect, but I'd still like to have both (that is if Kinect can produce anything more than shovelware completely, which we've basically only seen so far, whereas Move is being integrated into large titles like Killzone 3 and LBP2).

 

[arod]

PS Move looks to be a lot more than "Wii HD" ... the accuracy on the Move, from what people have been saying, is MUCH more 1-to-1 than the wii, which isn't saying much because the wii isnt even remotely close.

But does a bit of extra accuracy really make a product people will buy over the wii? That is the marketing problem sony will have.

Kinect on the other hand can be marketed as something totally different than the wii (and can be marketed as the next evolution of the wii because of the full body tracking). Even if sony had the tech/motion idea years ago they never made a compelling product out of it or advertised it to become a successful product. I think the fact that almost nobody knows sony had the tech until you link to videos says alot about this idea. The question is can microsoft market it properly.

Personally the biggest ace in the hole between the two systems (which is a huge favor for ms) is the bundle. Having a $299 "complete" system that is going up against a $399 sony system is a big deal even if the sony console has the hard drive/extras. New systems is where the war will be won this holiday.

 

[NikolaeVarius]

But does a bit of extra accuracy really make a product people will buy over the wii? That is the marketing problem sony will have.

Kinect on the other hand can be marketed as something totally different than the wii (and can be marketed as the next evolution of the wii because of the full body tracking). Even if sony had the tech/motion idea years ago they never made a compelling product out of it or advertised it to become a successful product. I think the fact that almost nobody knows sony had the tech until you link to videos says alot about this idea. The question is can microsoft market it properly.

Personally the biggest ace in the hole between the two systems (which is a huge favor for ms) is the bundle. Having a $299 "complete" system that is going up against a $399 sony system is a big deal even if the sony console has the hard drive/extras. New systems is where the war will be won this holiday.

Well its not just accuracy, its also movement in 3d space.

One of the demos that come with the move is a block stacking minigame. It really shows off the control the controller provides.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJI6LEtVQJM

 

[Tom]

If the production Move has that much lag it's going to be bad. btw, lots of FUD about the Wii remote accuracy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acND4sO3pJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qcDjwRynyU

 

[Tristicus]

If the production Move has that much lag it's going to be bad. btw, lots of FUD about the Wii remote accuracy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acND4sO3pJs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qcDjwRynyU

Software =/= hardware.

Take Sorcery. Great controls. Very very accurate.
Take Tiger Woods (w/e EA golfing). Bad controls. More inaccurate.

 

[DaveSimmons]

I want to replace my launch 60 GB PS3 with a cooler, quieter Slim so I'm seriously considering the 320 GB Move bundle as a "why not?" -- I haven't found enough games I want to play to justify getting a Wii, but this is well under $100 (figuring in the larger hard drive) for a bit of wii-like waggle fun.

Move -- at $150 I don't see any reason to add it to my 360 Elite yet.

 

[arredondo]

The DualShock controller has about 1.0 frame of input lag (16 ms), and the Move is confirmed to have almost 1.5 frames of input lag (22 ms). Any other issues you see is either from the laggy display being used by the player, the software or a little of both.

 

[purbeast0]

The DualShock controller has about 1.0 frame of input lag (16 ms), and the Move is confirmed to have almost 1.5 frames of input lag (22 ms). Any other issues you see is either from the laggy display being used by the player, the software or a little of both.

coming from a hardcore ssf4 player, 1-2 frames is NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.

if that is honestly the TRUE numbers, that is fucking impressive as shit.

 

[arredondo]

^^^ Check out this recent video interview with the Sony engineer who helped develop the Move, specifically its tracking algorithms. From :14 - 1:20 he goes over all of the tech specs, including the fact that it measures movement in one millimeter increments on the X & Y axis, and tracks the Z axis in one centimeter increments.

 

[midrigs]

Straight from sony.



http://us.playstation.com/ps3/accessories/scph-98061.html

Maybe each device uses multiple blu-tooth ports.

 

[StageLeft]

I agree the kinect sounds like it has real potential. I can imagine a boxing game for example would truly, finally, be a true level of interactivity (short of being actually hit). Sounds fantastic.

Still, its lack of accuracy would be a turn off for me. Every time--I mean EVERY TIME--I've played the Nintendo Wii I've hated it just a little bit more. It always felt gimmicky. I know millions of people like it but I fvcking abhored its controller. I remember I played a boxing game once and that was it, I swore no more damn Wii for me, it was just terrible and almost random. Just shittily done and anybody who actually has a feel for what's going on would realize it.. The Move sounds like it finally is a real motion controller.

I knew it would remove the tactile feeling from the game and leave you struggling to control games properly.

A real concern of mine, too. When I see a racing game with somebody making their hands into a steering wheel the very first thought I have is actually that my arms would get tired. They would. Who wants to hold their arms up for very long like that, for one thing.

That and nobody cared about EyeToy.

I'm a semi-involved gamer and the first time I'd heard of the eyetoy was about 120 seconds ago.