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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I find voting to be a duty of the citizen. My vote may not matter much in the grand scheme of things but, our votes do matter. We are the government. Not Bush or Gore or Kerry or me or you... but, us. To sustain this way of life we must get away from elections being won by half the eligible voters. If every one eligible to vote voted the mandate for a platform of ideas would force the will of the people on the Congress and the Executive. It would force them to do as they promised.
To not vote is an abandonment of the ideals we espouse. I agree with the folks who say 'if you don't vote don't complain' If you don't vote you don't belong posting an opinion on related topics. I figure you've abdicated a responsibility and thereby lost the right to subsequently voice an opinion. IMO.

You are dead wrong about that.

We must, therefore, emphasize that "we" are not the government; the government is not "us."

Text

We are a government of the people and by the people. The folks in D.C. simply represent us. They are our voices. We elect them to do this. We vote them out when they don't. If we were not the government then elections would be unnecessary. We'd maybe have Kings and Princes prancing about.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I find voting to be a duty of the citizen. My vote may not matter much in the grand scheme of things but, our votes do matter. We are the government. Not Bush or Gore or Kerry or me or you... but, us. To sustain this way of life we must get away from elections being won by half the eligible voters. If every one eligible to vote voted the mandate for a platform of ideas would force the will of the people on the Congress and the Executive. It would force them to do as they promised.
To not vote is an abandonment of the ideals we espouse. I agree with the folks who say 'if you don't vote don't complain' If you don't vote you don't belong posting an opinion on related topics. I figure you've abdicated a responsibility and thereby lost the right to subsequently voice an opinion. IMO.

You are dead wrong about that.

We must, therefore, emphasize that "we" are not the government; the government is not "us."

Text

We are a government of the people and by the people. The folks in D.C. simply represent us. They are our voices. We elect them to do this. We vote them out when they don't. If we were not the government then elections would be unnecessary. We'd maybe have Kings and Princes prancing about.

Who is "us"? The people in government cannot possibly represent "us". Because "we" have mutually exclusive views. The idea that an elected "representative" represents an entire geographic location is absurd. They may represent a particular group in that geographic location, but that is about it. In fact, they don't even have to represent a majority to get elected, just more than the other candidates.

As long as there is a single person who does not support a "representative", the claim that they represent "us" goes right out the window. I assure you that in every district there is someone who dissents, therefore, in every case your claim is false.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
The one thing we all have in common as citizens of the US is the right and responsibility to vote into office folks who espouse our individual ideologies, what ever they may be. If there are folks who hold strong belief on a topic or philosophy and there are no options on the ballot for a candidate similarly positioned then I suppose I can understand why they'd lose faith in the system, not want to vote and just go and pout or whatever they might do. Life, however, if made up of many issues. Some of these issues touch each of us directly. To the extent they touch you vote your feelings. Don't allow one side or another succeed in putting you in a box. Vote because it is the way to change. The only real way for folks in DC or your local township to know you exist and care and will remove them if they don't do their job as you see fit to determine it.. If enough folks agree, it will happen.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I find voting to be a duty of the citizen. My vote may not matter much in the grand scheme of things but, our votes do matter. We are the government. Not Bush or Gore or Kerry or me or you... but, us. To sustain this way of life we must get away from elections being won by half the eligible voters. If every one eligible to vote voted the mandate for a platform of ideas would force the will of the people on the Congress and the Executive. It would force them to do as they promised.
To not vote is an abandonment of the ideals we espouse. I agree with the folks who say 'if you don't vote don't complain' If you don't vote you don't belong posting an opinion on related topics. I figure you've abdicated a responsibility and thereby lost the right to subsequently voice an opinion. IMO.

You are dead wrong about that.

We must, therefore, emphasize that "we" are not the government; the government is not "us."

Text

We are a government of the people and by the people. The folks in D.C. simply represent us. They are our voices. We elect them to do this. We vote them out when they don't. If we were not the government then elections would be unnecessary. We'd maybe have Kings and Princes prancing about.

Who is "us"? The people in government cannot possibly represent "us". Because "we" have mutually exclusive views. The idea that an elected "representative" represents an entire geographic location is absurd. They may represent a particular group in that geographic location, but that is about it. In fact, they don't even have to represent a majority to get elected, just more than the other candidates.

As long as there is a single person who does not support a "representative", the claim that they represent "us" goes right out the window. I assure you that in every district there is someone who dissents, therefore, in every case your claim is false.

You have your position on the matter. I obviously don't agree with you but, that don't make me right and you wrong or visa versa. What does make my position solid is the notion of the vote. It is what we have as a means to voice our opinions in a dynamic and meaningful way. To argue that if one person's views are not represented then we don't have a representive from of government really don't cut it. My Congressman represents me and lord knows I don't agree with much Randy Cunningham does.
Drum up support locally for your position and get others to vote ... like I try to do. Get your ideas to the masses and maybe they'll send you to represent them. Maybe we need an Amendment to not only compel the vote but that to win an election some significant portion of eligible voters must have participated.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
I find voting to be a duty of the citizen. My vote may not matter much in the grand scheme of things but, our votes do matter. We are the government. Not Bush or Gore or Kerry or me or you... but, us. To sustain this way of life we must get away from elections being won by half the eligible voters. If every one eligible to vote voted the mandate for a platform of ideas would force the will of the people on the Congress and the Executive. It would force them to do as they promised.
To not vote is an abandonment of the ideals we espouse. I agree with the folks who say 'if you don't vote don't complain' If you don't vote you don't belong posting an opinion on related topics. I figure you've abdicated a responsibility and thereby lost the right to subsequently voice an opinion. IMO.

You are dead wrong about that.

We must, therefore, emphasize that "we" are not the government; the government is not "us."

Text

We are a government of the people and by the people. The folks in D.C. simply represent us. They are our voices. We elect them to do this. We vote them out when they don't. If we were not the government then elections would be unnecessary. We'd maybe have Kings and Princes prancing about.

Who is "us"? The people in government cannot possibly represent "us". Because "we" have mutually exclusive views. The idea that an elected "representative" represents an entire geographic location is absurd. They may represent a particular group in that geographic location, but that is about it. In fact, they don't even have to represent a majority to get elected, just more than the other candidates.

As long as there is a single person who does not support a "representative", the claim that they represent "us" goes right out the window. I assure you that in every district there is someone who dissents, therefore, in every case your claim is false.

You have your position on the matter. I obviously don't agree with you but, that don't make me right and you wrong or visa versa. What does make my position solid is the notion of the vote. It is what we have as a means to voice our opinions in a dynamic and meaningful way. To argue that if one person's views are not represented then we don't have a representive from of government really don't cut it. My Congressman represents me and lord knows I don't agree with much Randy Cunningham does.
Drum up support locally for your position and get others to vote ... like I try to do. Get your ideas to the masses and maybe they'll send you to represent them. Maybe we need an Amendment to not only compel the vote but that to win an election some significant portion of eligible voters must have participated.

Dynamic and meaningful way? I'm afraid I am going to have to say that is false as well. When you go to a supermarket and you buy a particular brand of toilet paper, that small act is far more dynamic and meaningful than voting. At best when you vote, you vote for a bundle of ideas. In reality however, you are voting for a career politician. This is someone who is going to spend a minimum of the next couple of years in office doing whatever they can to promote their career. They become part of the government, and the government becomes their pet. They are going to do everything in their power to cram that pet so full of dog food, it is coming out its ears.

No, Cunningham does not represent you, and you just said he doesn't so why are you denying that he doesn't? If he doesn't represent you then admit it, don't try to claim something is true just because it fits into your idea of democracy. You are not represented by Cunningham and I am not represented by George Bush.

Think of it this way. In any other area of life would you have someone making decisions on your behalf who you didn't like or agree with? No way! You aren't going to hire a lawyer who is going to set out to lose your case, you aren't going to hire a real estate agent who is going to try to get the lowest possible price for your home, you aren't going to hire security guards who are likely to rob your store etc. etc.

In the free market we hire people to act on our behalf in a peaceful, non-coercive manner. For some stupid reason we make an exception in politics, and now we have people such as yourself running around claiming that someone who they disagree with completely actually represents them!
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Dissapate,
Dynamic and meaningful way? I'm afraid I am going to have to say that is false as well. When you go to a supermarket and you buy a particular brand of toilet paper, that small act is far more dynamic and meaningful than voting.
From your POV perhaps. I simply don't agree. But, I'll defend your right to feel that way!

At best when you vote, you vote for a bundle of ideas.
A comprimise, I agree. But, there are always one or two main differences between candidates that provides me meaningful choice. Abortion, War, Taxes, Social issues etc..

In reality however, you are voting for a career politician. This is someone who is going to spend a minimum of the next couple of years in office doing whatever they can to promote their career. They become part of the government, and the government becomes their pet. They are going to do everything in their power to cram that pet so full of dog food, it is coming out its ears.
A partially true statement. It is why the vote is important. Get enough upset folks to vote them out and elect citizen legislators if that is your want

No, Cunningham does not represent you, and you just said he doesn't so why are you denying that he doesn't? If he doesn't represent you then admit it, don't try to claim something is true just because it fits into your idea of democracy. You are not represented by Cunningham and I am not represented by George Bush.
Semantics. He won't vote for my positions in Congress but, neither will I vote for him in elections. If enough of us here oppose his 'track record' we'll succeed in voting him out. He is my Representative in Congress. But, I like him as a person. We both were in VF96 way back when...

Think of it this way. In any other area of life would you have someone making decisions on your behalf who you didn't like or agree with? No way! You aren't going to hire a lawyer who is going to set out to lose your case, you aren't going to hire a real estate agent who is going to try to get the lowest possible price for your home, you aren't going to hire security guards who are likely to rob your store etc. etc.
No... in law I choose me. But, I like me.. The issue here, however, is our form of government and that the process for making choices is and has been in place. You must work within the parameters of it to change it. You don't like it but, you don't have a means to change it. I do!... Well, you could try an outside the process gambit.. but, it is unlikely you'd succeed.

In the free market we hire people to act on our behalf in a peaceful, non-coercive manner. For some stupid reason we make an exception in politics, and now we have people such as yourself running around claiming that someone who they disagree with completely actually represents them!
Again, Duke IS my Representative. It is what he is called. He does not agree with all or many of my positions but, he agrees with the positions of enough folks to get reelected.
If you are totally unable to deal within the system to try and change it then ... OH Well.. such is life, I guess. I'll let it go there. You are citizen who dislikes his government system and that is fine by me. I figure you can be and think as you wish. But, I don't think you've much of a voice about the system when you are not a part of its mechanics. I further suppose, reflectively, that you do have a right to complain and gripe and all that but, not about the candidates or their positions. I say this because regardless of what they may do something will not be as you'd see it and they, therefore, don't represent you. Find the person who does and get her/him to listen.

I will respond by item in bold above to save space and try to insure the comment matches the statements you made.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Dissapate,
Dynamic and meaningful way? I'm afraid I am going to have to say that is false as well. When you go to a supermarket and you buy a particular brand of toilet paper, that small act is far more dynamic and meaningful than voting.
From your POV perhaps. I simply don't agree. But, I'll defend your right to feel that way!

At best when you vote, you vote for a bundle of ideas.
A comprimise, I agree. But, there are always one or two main differences between candidates that provides me meaningful choice. Abortion, War, Taxes, Social issues etc..

In reality however, you are voting for a career politician. This is someone who is going to spend a minimum of the next couple of years in office doing whatever they can to promote their career. They become part of the government, and the government becomes their pet. They are going to do everything in their power to cram that pet so full of dog food, it is coming out its ears.
A partially true statement. It is why the vote is important. Get enough upset folks to vote them out and elect citizen legislators it that is your want

A noble proposition, but in reality this just doesn't work. People have succumbed to what is known as "rational ignorance." Rational igornance is the product of the fact that an individual vote is virtually meaningless within the hundreds of thousands of votes that are cast. For this reason the vast majority of voters simply don't want to take the time to actually figure out what is going on. People are ignorant of the facts, ignorant of logic, and simply do not want to take the time to study an alternative voice. For this reason it takes an aweful lot to get voted out of office, people just figure they should keep things the way they are. This is why the incumbancy rate is about 90% for "representatives."

No, Cunningham does not represent you, and you just said he doesn't so why are you denying that he doesn't? If he doesn't represent you then admit it, don't try to claim something is true just because it fits into your idea of democracy. You are not represented by Cunningham and I am not represented by George Bush.
Semantics. He won't vote for my positions in Congress but, neither will I vote for him in elections. If enough of us here oppose his 'track record' we'll succeed in voting him out. He is my Representative in Congress. But, I like him as a person. We both were in VF96 way back when...

As I said above, your idea is noble, but in real life rational ignorance kills it.

Think of it this way. In any other area of life would you have someone making decisions on your behalf who you didn't like or agree with? No way! You aren't going to hire a lawyer who is going to set out to lose your case, you aren't going to hire a real estate agent who is going to try to get the lowest possible price for your home, you aren't going to hire security guards who are likely to rob your store etc. etc.
No... in law I choose me. But, I like me.. The issue here, however, is our form of government and that the process for making choices is and has been in place. You must work withing the parameters of it to change it. You don't like it but, you don't have a means to change it. I do!... Well, you could try an outside the process gambit.. but, it is unlikely you'd succeed.

That is like saying you want to work within the parameters of a fixed card game to make it honest again. You seem to not understand what I am getting at. "Representative" democracy is fradulent from the get go, if it wasn't we wouldn't be in the horrible mess we are in today with the IRS, Federal Reserve, massive deficits and all the interventionist alphabet agencies such as OSHA which have enacted regulatations costing businesses over $900 billion a year. Pray tell, if "representative" democracy is such a legitimate process how has it created a government which consumes about 40% of the GDP? Not even the most corrupt, most organized criminal organization could EVER even conceive of such a heist.

In the free market we hire people to act on our behalf in a peaceful, non-coercive manner. For some stupid reason we make an exception in politics, and now we have people such as yourself running around claiming that someone who they disagree with completely actually represents them!
Again, Duke IS my Representative. It is what he is called. He does not agree with all or many of my positions but, he agrees with the positions of enough folks to get reelected.
If you are totally unable to deal within the system to try and change it then ... OH Well.. such is life, I guess. I'll let it go there. You are citizen who dislikes his government system and that is fine by me. I figure you can be and think as you wish. But, I don't think you've much of a voice about the system when you are not a part of its mechanics. I further suppose, reflectively, that you do have a right to complain and gripe and all that but, not about the candidates or their positions. I say this because regardless of what they may do something will not be as you'd see it and they, therefore, don't represent you. Find the person who does and get her/him to listen.


Someone in office who represents my views is literally an oxymoron. If there is someone in office who represented my views they would immediately resign. And once again, you keep talking about "change from within", and I keep telling you that change from within a fraudulent operation is absurd. When a card game is rigged you don't try to change it, you get up and walk away. Hence, not voting.

I will respond by item in bold above to save space and try to insure the comment matches the statements you made.
 

oreagan

Senior member
Jul 8, 2002
235
0
0
Let's run through a little thought experiment.

Say we start tomorrow on a world without government. 1000 people land on a new world with no communication or orders from home.

They decide to live in a fully anarchistic society. You're minding your own business (which you keep 100% of the profits from) except someone comes along bigger and better armed than you and demands that you give him all that you have. There's no government, no one to ask to use force for you, so you fork over all that you have, or else die.

Then, someone comes along and says to everyone in your area, "serve me or die." Now you get to serve this fellow or die. Now your taxes are 100% and you're also a slave. Cheers!


Democracy is a flawed form of government but it's all we have. Without government there is a void that WILL be filled by someone ambitious enough. Might makes right if nothing else does first. No society ever has or will lived without government (nor do wolves nor a great many other types of animals) because that's now how life is. Get over it.

Edit: typo
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: oreagan
Let's run through a little thought experiment.

Say we start tomorrow on a world without government. 1000 people land on a new world with no communication or orders from home.

They decide to live in a fully anarchistic society. You're minding your own business (which you keep 100% of the profits from) except someone comes along bigger and better armed than you and demands that you give him all that you have. There's no government, no one to ask to use force for you, so you fork over all that you have, or else die.

Then, someone comes along and says to everyone in your area, "serve me or die." Now you get to serve this fellow or die. Now your taxes are 100% and you're also a slave. Cheers!


Democracy is a flawed form of government but it's all we have. Without government there is a void that WILL be filled by someone ambitious enough. Might makes right if nothing else does first. No society ever has or will lived without government (nor do wolves nor a great many other types of animals) because that's now how life is. Get over it.

Edit: typo

The experiment has been run and what you described didn't occur, because people protected each other. They didn't have a man with a license to kill from the state to "protect" them. But it didn't matter, they still formed civilized societies.

The western frontier was lawless, and none of the things that you associate with anarchy were present. This book documents all of this.

Law for the Elephant

Here is an essay on anarchy as well:

What is anarchy?

Furthermore, when you get right down to it, it is government that is in chaos, not the people it rules. Look at a corporation compared to a bureaucracy. A corporation is efficient, it is productive and its actions are usually logical. A bureaucracy is magnitudes worse in all these areas. A bureaucracy is literally in chaos, because it cannot calculate. It does not have the means to know how to allocate resources. This is why bureaucracies attempt to make up for this deficiency by exercising their power to use force against citizens.

Here is a free downloadable book on this matter:

Bureaucracy
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Dissipate,
I guess your only option is to 'walk away and hence not vote'. The system may not be ideal or even far from ideal but, it is the only one we have. I won't walk away cuz it follows me.. it is every where. It taxes my income, generates laws that I must obey or suffer the consequences and creates wars that affect my life and others. To not do the most I can to make these events be consistent with my views seems a bit nutty to me. Corrupt or not.
I know one thing for sure and that is the closer to me the government is the more my vote counts. We've had some local issues decided by two votes on more than a few occasions. Well three once.
As I said before, you'll not find me questioning your intelligence or calling you names or inviting you to move to another country. I'll simply say 'You can't teach a pig to fly... it does nothing but frustrate you and tick off the pig'. I'm really pig headed on this.. so the wings you offer are respectfully declined.. :)
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Dissipate,
I guess your only option is to 'walk away and hence not vote'. The system may not be ideal or even far from ideal but, it is the only one we have.

Not only is it not ideal, but it is an abomination. We have created a system where everyone is literally at each other's throats. The wage earners vs. the capitalists, the anti-gun people vs. the pro-gun people the protectionists vs. the free trade advocates. This is like a nightmare on Elm St. on crack.

I won't walk away cuz it follows me.. it is every where. It taxes my income, generates laws that I must obey or suffer the consequences and creates wars that affect my life and others.

Thank you for proving my point for me. It was "representative" democracy that created this environment in the fist place.

To not do the most I can to make these events be consistent with my views seems a bit nutty to me. Corrupt or not.

If you could do the most you could do to make government consistent with your views you would get a PhD in philosophy or economics, then study your views as much as they could possibly been studied, write about them in numerous books, give talks and seminars etc. But you do not do this and very few people do this in general, because in the end the cost of doing so is very high, unless that is actually what you enjoy doing. In this sense the vast majority of us are victims of rational ignorance.

I know one thing for sure and that is the closer to me the government is the more my vote counts. We've had some local issues decided by two votes on more than a few occasions. Well three once.
As I said before, you'll not find me questioning your intelligence or calling you names or inviting you to move to another country. I'll simply say 'You can't teach a pig to fly... it does nothing but frustrate you and tick off the pig'. I'm really pig headed on this.. so the wings you offer are respectfully declined.. :)

So be it. I'm just trying to explain why its actually a good thing if people don't vote. I vote, but only to defend myself from the "you can't complain because you don't vote." crowd.
 

oreagan

Senior member
Jul 8, 2002
235
0
0
The American West was not an experiment in anarchy. Small and local government is not the same thing as no government. When everyone comes together and decides even on informal, "frontier" law they have created a government. Here's what anarchy really is.

Your fellow's definition of anarchy is...interesting.
"I employ the word "anarchy" not as a noun, but as a verb."
I'm glad that Mr. Shaffer has already freed himself from the tyranny of grammar.
"Are there murderers, kidnappers, rapists, and arsonists in our world? Of course there are, and there will always be, and they do not all work for the state. It is amazing that, with all the powers and money conferred upon the state to "protect" us from such threats, they continue to occur with a regularity that seems to have increased with the size of government! Even the current "mad cow disease" scare is being used, by the statists, as a reason for more government regulation, an effort that conveniently ignores the fact that the federal government has been closely regulating meat production for many decades."
I still get sick occasionally! I guess that means that medication and vaccines are really a terribly conspiracy out to steal my pic-a-nic basket!


Government doesn't have to be federal, large, or representative - if you're arguing for local control of a confederalist system I can sympathize with you. If you're argueing that the government that governs best is that which governs least, you're in good company - a great many of the founding fathers felt the same way. Rejecting the possibility of two men being able to accomplish more than one is asanine.

Want some links to books? Try these:
The Social Contract by Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Rousseau argues that while man was in his best form of government in the state of nature before government, we can never return there. Since we can't achieve democracy, a controlling authority he defines is the best form of government.
Two Treatises on Government by John Locke
Locke argues for a minimalist government based on protecting the sacred rights of man.

I'm not saying that just because these men are revered that they're right; they make their own case.
 

oreagan

Senior member
Jul 8, 2002
235
0
0
Also,

You have learned modern economics and you are going around espousing the greatness of the IRS?! I don't know what professors you have been learning from, but whoever they are they need to be fired.

Judge for yourself. Here are my two most recent professors:

Kenneth Elzinga
Lee Coppock
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: oreagan
The American West was not an experiment in anarchy. Small and local government is not the same thing as no government. When everyone comes together and decides even on informal, "frontier" law they have created a government. Here's what anarchy really is.

Your fellow's definition of anarchy is...interesting.
"I employ the word "anarchy" not as a noun, but as a verb."
I'm glad that Mr. Shaffer has already freed himself from the tyranny of grammar.
"Are there murderers, kidnappers, rapists, and arsonists in our world? Of course there are, and there will always be, and they do not all work for the state. It is amazing that, with all the powers and money conferred upon the state to "protect" us from such threats, they continue to occur with a regularity that seems to have increased with the size of government! Even the current "mad cow disease" scare is being used, by the statists, as a reason for more government regulation, an effort that conveniently ignores the fact that the federal government has been closely regulating meat production for many decades."
I still get sick occasionally! I guess that means that medication and vaccines are really a terribly conspiracy out to steal my pic-a-nic basket!

HuH? Your statement is quite non-sequitur. Most law enforcement efforts are not targeted towards stopping rapists, murderers or anyone of that sort. Most law enforcement efforts are targeted towards "stopping" drug "offenders." Some protection.

Government doesn't have to be federal, large, or representative - if you're arguing for local control of a confederalist system I can sympathize with you. If you're argueing that the government that governs best is that which governs least, you're in good company - a great many of the founding fathers felt the same way. Rejecting the possibility of two men being able to accomplish more than one is asanine.

Two men being able to accomplish more than one is called the division of labor. Division of labor doesn't exist in government because there is no production.

Want some links to books? Try these:
The Social Contract by Jean-Jacques Rousseau
Rousseau argues that while man was in his best form of government in the state of nature before government, we can never return there. Since we can't achieve democracy, a controlling authority he defines is the best form of government.
Two Treatises on Government by John Locke
Locke argues for a minimalist government based on protecting the sacred rights of man.

I'm not saying that just because these men are revered that they're right; they make their own case.

Both of them are wrong, and the reason why is in the paper I linked you to before: A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism. In any event, I think you would have to be on some kind of drugs yourself to claim that we have a minimalist government today.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Dissipate,
I guess your only option is to 'walk away and hence not vote'. The system may not be ideal or even far from ideal but, it is the only one we have.

Not only is it not ideal, but it is an abomination. We have created a system where everyone is literally at each other's throats. The wage earners vs. the capitalists, the anti-gun people vs. the pro-gun people the protectionists vs. the free trade advocates. This is like a nightmare on Elm St. on crack.

The different options and levels give you something to strive for... the system gives you something to improve. I say and believe that we are the government and we can make it to be what we want. Just like Adams and friends did way back when. Corrupt is not a reason to replace it with something else. We both know replacement is not a reality

I won't walk away cuz it follows me.. it is every where. It taxes my income, generates laws that I must obey or suffer the consequences and creates wars that affect my life and others.

Thank you for proving my point for me. It was "representative" democracy that created this environment in the fist place.

It is what it is and I accept it as it is fundamentally. I work to make it more to my liking and do so with my vote and my thoughts articulated as best I can.

To not do the most I can to make these events be consistent with my views seems a bit nutty to me. Corrupt or not.

If you could do the most you could do to make government consistent with your views you would get a PhD in philosophy or economics, then study your views as much as they could possibly been studied, write about them in numerous books, give talks and seminars etc. But you do not do this and very few people do this in general, because in the end the cost of doing so is very high, unless that is actually what you enjoy doing. In this sense the vast majority of us are victims of rational ignorance.

Never make a statement putting forth as fact what you do not know to be fact... :D Or, as an attorney might say; never ask a question you don't know the answer to. :D Well.. it is my nature to lecture, I guess, so kindly overlook my admonition... which I could have simply erased...:)

I know one thing for sure and that is the closer to me the government is the more my vote counts. We've had some local issues decided by two votes on more than a few occasions. Well three once.
As I said before, you'll not find me questioning your intelligence or calling you names or inviting you to move to another country. I'll simply say 'You can't teach a pig to fly... it does nothing but frustrate you and tick off the pig'. I'm really pig headed on this.. so the wings you offer are respectfully declined.. :)

So be it. I'm just trying to explain why its actually a good thing if people don't vote. I vote, but only to defend myself from the "you can't complain because you don't vote." crowd.

Don't let the 'crowd' dictate your actions. Lead! If you don't want to vote for the reasons you stated earlier, fine. To avoid the stigma of being willing to stand up for what you believe by 'giving in' denies your position its main advocate, you! I'd say you have little right to argue between Bush and Kerry but, like I said earlier, even outside the box their actions do affect you and I suppose I was wrong in saying you wouldn't have the right to debate which is more the able leader because you don't vote.
My forte in not PolyPsi or Philosophy but I can think a bit so there it is. Lead, follow or get out of the way!
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
From the definition of anarchy you linked to:

Anarchy:

1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

You are right, anarchy is c. We must throw out definition b, because as I already explained, and as it is clearly and definitively explained in the book Bureaucracy, the government itself is in chaos. Therefore, political disorder is redundant. Politics is disorder, that is why politics needs to end.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Dissipate,
I guess your only option is to 'walk away and hence not vote'. The system may not be ideal or even far from ideal but, it is the only one we have.

Not only is it not ideal, but it is an abomination. We have created a system where everyone is literally at each other's throats. The wage earners vs. the capitalists, the anti-gun people vs. the pro-gun people the protectionists vs. the free trade advocates. This is like a nightmare on Elm St. on crack.

The different options and levels give you something to strive for... the system gives you something to improve. I say and believe that we are the government and we can make it to be what we want. Just like Adams and friends did way back when. Corrupt is not a reason to replace it with something else. We both know replacement is not a reality

It is true that we can make it what we want. The problem is that it will never be what "we" want with "representative" democracy. It is absolutely impossible when we have politicians "representing" multiple mutually exclusive interests at the same time.

I won't walk away cuz it follows me.. it is every where. It taxes my income, generates laws that I must obey or suffer the consequences and creates wars that affect my life and others.

Thank you for proving my point for me. It was "representative" democracy that created this environment in the fist place.

It is what it is and I accept it as it is fundamentally. I work to make it more to my liking and do so with my vote and my thoughts articulated as best I can.

Then sadly you have accepted fraud fundamentally.

To not do the most I can to make these events be consistent with my views seems a bit nutty to me. Corrupt or not.

If you could do the most you could do to make government consistent with your views you would get a PhD in philosophy or economics, then study your views as much as they could possibly been studied, write about them in numerous books, give talks and seminars etc. But you do not do this and very few people do this in general, because in the end the cost of doing so is very high, unless that is actually what you enjoy doing. In this sense the vast majority of us are victims of rational ignorance.

Never make a statement putting forth as fact what you do not know to be fact... :D Or, as an attorney might say; never ask a question you don't know the answer to. :D Well.. it is my nature to lecture, I guess, so kindly overlook my admonition... which I could have simply erased...:)

You wouldn't be here if it weren't true. :)

I know one thing for sure and that is the closer to me the government is the more my vote counts. We've had some local issues decided by two votes on more than a few occasions. Well three once.
As I said before, you'll not find me questioning your intelligence or calling you names or inviting you to move to another country. I'll simply say 'You can't teach a pig to fly... it does nothing but frustrate you and tick off the pig'. I'm really pig headed on this.. so the wings you offer are respectfully declined.. :)

So be it. I'm just trying to explain why its actually a good thing if people don't vote. I vote, but only to defend myself from the "you can't complain because you don't vote." crowd.

Don't let the 'crowd' dictate your actions. Lead! If you don't want to vote for the reasons you stated earlier, fine. To avoid the stigma of being willing to stand up for what you believe by 'giving in' denies your position its main advocate, you! I'd say you have little right to argue between Bush and Kerry but, like I said earlier, even outside the box their actions do affect you and I suppose I was wrong in saying you wouldn't have the right to debate which is more the able leader because you don't vote.
My forte in not PolyPsi or Philosophy but I can think a bit so there it is. Lead, follow or get out of the way!


It really doesn't have anything to do with crowds. I just don't want to have to go through the "you don't vote so..." argument everytime I argue. It is as simple as that.
 

oreagan

Senior member
Jul 8, 2002
235
0
0
Both of them are wrong, and the reason why is in the paper I linked you to before: A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism. In any event, I think you would have to be on some kind of drugs yourself to claim that we have a minimalist government today.

Let me be clear: I am certainly not making that claim. To further clarify, I am not saying that I suppose the "war on drugs" nor many of the infrastructure projects of the government.

Two men being able to accomplish more than one is called the division of labor. Division of labor doesn't exist in government because there is no production.

Okay, see, cause I thought we were using the Internet which would not even come close to existing without a government. For one thing, few of the creators would have had educations because they attended public schools and then universities that are funded by government subsidies and research. Without DARPA, we wouldn't have the basics of the Internet. Without enforced patents we wouldn't have any of the telecommunications we have today. I guess we can live without quality education, the Internet and creative works other than your own whistling abilities, I just don't want to. I happen to enjoy a world without smallpox and plague. Pretty nice to not have to worry about my food's sanitation or water's cleaniliness, a real problem even in your utopian old West.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: oreagan
Both of them are wrong, and the reason why is in the paper I linked you to before: A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism. In any event, I think you would have to be on some kind of drugs yourself to claim that we have a minimalist government today.

Let me be clear: I am certainly not making that claim. To further clarify, I am not saying that I suppose the "war on drugs" nor many of the infrastructure projects of the government.

Two men being able to accomplish more than one is called the division of labor. Division of labor doesn't exist in government because there is no production.

Okay, see, cause I thought we were using the Internet which would not even come close to existing without a government.

Hahaha, that's absolutely inane. I love it how the DOD takes over $400 billion a year, cranks out a few things like GPS, then people like yourself jump up and down and say: "LOOK! The government can innovate!" This is a load of garbage. The government can innovate by paying a bunch of researchers, but it cannot innovate like the free market can, not by a long shot. Let's take your argument to the extreme. If the government was more efficient at innovation than the free market then the USSR would have far more inventions to its name than the U.S. and would probably be a super power today. Furthermore, you are wrong. The free market happened to be developing the Internet at the same time, it just happened to be slowed down by the trillions of dollars taken away from it by the government. This is like breaking someone's legs then claiming you can run faster than them. More on this here: Text

For one thing, few of the creators would have had educations because they attended public schools and then universities that are funded by government subsidies and research.

You getting out the public school argument now? Wow, talk about last resorts! The public school system is such a crock of sh** it isn't even worth mentioning. I think you can go to any public school and figure this out on your own.

Taxing people, subsidizing something, having people take advantage of those subsidies and claiming that "government works" is about as fallacious as saying that if I rob the guy down the street and use that money to build a bridge that "robbery works."


Without DARPA, we wouldn't have the basics of the Internet.

Wrong (see above).

Without enforced patents we wouldn't have any of the telecommunications we have today.

Wrong, see page 745 of this book: Man, Economy and State

I guess we can live without quality education, the Internet and creative works other than your own whistling abilities, I just don't want to.

Government education is quality education?! What planet are you living on?! This is so absurd I have nothing else to say about it. As I said before, the DOD takes hundreds of billions of dollars a year, of which the free market could do 10x more with that money. One invention, albeit a great invention does not justify this enormous inefficiency. If government innovation worked the USSR would be the most powerful bloc on the face of the Earth.

I happen to enjoy a world without smallpox and plague. Pretty nice to not have to worry about my food's sanitation or water's cleaniliness, a real problem even in your utopian old West.

I never said the West was a utopia. I said that it wasn't the wild chaotic West that you and many other people have been led to believe it was. Furthermore, you are comparing today's water sanitation capabilities to the old West's?? They didn't have technology for that back then, that's a no-brainer.



null
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Dissipate,
You wouldn't be here if it weren't true.

As some actor once said "There ya go again".. :)

But, now I gotta go. Something Sacred awaits me.. :D
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Dissipate,
What awaits each of us is tomorrow. Hopefully yours will be much better than today.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Dissipate,
What awaits each of us is tomorrow. Hopefully yours will be much better than today.

I dunno about you, but my day was fine. :D
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Dissipate,
What awaits each of us is tomorrow. Hopefully yours will be much better than today.

I dunno about you, but my day was fine. :D

Then I hope tomorrow is finer.:)