Proud Non Voters

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I find voting to be a duty of the citizen. My vote may not matter much in the grand scheme of things but, our votes do matter. We are the government. Not Bush or Gore or Kerry or me or you... but, us. To sustain this way of life we must get away from elections being won by half the eligible voters. If every one eligible to vote voted the mandate for a platform of ideas would force the will of the people on the Congress and the Executive. It would force them to do as they promised.
To not vote is an abandonment of the ideals we espouse. I agree with the folks who say 'if you don't vote don't complain' If you don't vote you don't belong posting an opinion on related topics. I figure you've abdicated a responsibility and thereby lost the right to subsequently voice an opinion. IMO.

You are dead wrong about that.

We must, therefore, emphasize that "we" are not the government; the government is not "us."

Text

 

[nageov3t]

I vote because I care about the way our country is run.

When the president tries to get something awful passed through congress like the Patriot Act or a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages, I want a democratic congress there to balance the power.

I'm also a big fan of free speach, so I vote for leaders who don't want the FCC to start cracking down on radio and television.

 

[Mardeth]

Originally posted by: cobalt

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: kage69
Those who don't vote forfeit their right to bitch (and be taken seriously anyway).

Why? Because they choose not to partake in a patently fraudulent system? I respect people who choose not to vote. Voting makes the plutocrats in office think that what they are doing is legitimate. To them it legitimizes the theft, fraud and tyranny that the plutocrats engage in on a daily basis.

They have no right to complain about anything in their lives. They should not cry how "my life sucks because blah blah does sh*t for the country" or "I'm poor because of some f*g". They have no right to complain if they don't vote. If you want to change this country and make it a better place you HAVE to vote. You SHOULD vote. You SHOULD be greatful you even have that right and that we aren't living in a dicatorship. People like him make me sick and sad that I live in such a country where people take everything for granted and then spew bullsh*t because they are so ignorant.

You make it sound like US is unique, your not the only democratic country in the world, you know. Theres maybe 5 countrys ruled by dictators and maybe 15 that have a questionable rulership.
And when has your democratic values been threatened?

 

[CombatChuk]

Are you even old enough to vote?

 

[oreagan]

Originally posted by: Mardeth

Originally posted by: cobalt

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: kage69
Those who don't vote forfeit their right to bitch (and be taken seriously anyway).

Why? Because they choose not to partake in a patently fraudulent system? I respect people who choose not to vote. Voting makes the plutocrats in office think that what they are doing is legitimate. To them it legitimizes the theft, fraud and tyranny that the plutocrats engage in on a daily basis.

They have no right to complain about anything in their lives. They should not cry how "my life sucks because blah blah does sh*t for the country" or "I'm poor because of some f*g". They have no right to complain if they don't vote. If you want to change this country and make it a better place you HAVE to vote. You SHOULD vote. You SHOULD be greatful you even have that right and that we aren't living in a dicatorship. People like him make me sick and sad that I live in such a country where people take everything for granted and then spew bullsh*t because they are so ignorant.

You make it sound like US is unique, your not the only democratic country in the world, you know. Theres maybe 5 countrys ruled by dictators and maybe 15 that have a questionable rulership.
And when has your democratic values been threatened?

When the US formed, how many democracies were there in the world? You have any idea how many of the leading scholars of the 18th and early 19th centuries mocked the "American experiment?" You know how many prophecied an end within 10, 20 or 100 years? Rousseau called democracy the government of gods, unachievable by men and not worth trying to attain. Tocqueville said he saw a race war brewing between the whites and blacks or perhaps native americans, one that would destroy all of us and that he saw no possible excape from.

America is unique and always has been.

 

[dmw16]

I really can't stand the 'my vote doesn't count' attitude. If everyone thought their vote didn't count and didn't vote then where would we be. Look at Florida 4 years ago. A few votes counted there. So get out a vote, it is your responsability as an American - or the very least you can do to thank those hundreds of thousands who have died defending this country.

And all this 'America is destined to fail' thing comes off like some pseudo-intellectual, trying to impress someone(punk girl?) by reading some communist literature. Read it to be educated, but don't come on here and quote some crap.

-doug

 

[cumhail]

Originally posted by: dmw16
I really can't stand the 'my vote doesn't count' attitude. If everyone thought their vote didn't count and didn't vote then where would we be. Look at Florida 4 years ago. A few votes counted there. So get out a vote, it is your responsability as an American - or the very least you can do to thank those hundreds of thousands who have died defending this country.

And all this 'America is destined to fail' thing comes off like some pseudo-intellectual, trying to impress someone(punk girl?) by reading some communist literature. Read it to be educated, but don't come on here and quote some crap.

-doug

Yes, look at Florida, where scores of people had their votes unfairly and illegally discounted? Did their votes count?

Look at the California recall, where rather than seek to impeach and convict a governor for whatever transgressions and crimes he may have committed, they threw the votes from the initial election out and proceeded to build a three-ring circus with an action movie star running against, among others, a porn star and a former child star from the 80's. Those who voted in the initial election, based on their desire to be part of something more than just a media event... Did their votes count?

Look at each time a senator or representative votes on legislation based on what his/her campaign contributors want, rather than what the voters he/she represents want. Did their votes counts?

Look at the 2000 election as a whole, where we learned that the popular vote means little-to-nothing and that the election is determined by the votes of a select few who never had to get any of our votes to have that privilege... two such sets of people, in fact (first the electoral college, and then the supreme court). Did our votes count?

I'll vote in the November elections, just as I have in each election I've been eligible to vote in since I turned 18... I'll vote, and I'll hope that others vote, in hopes that, if nothing else, people who still hold onto romantic notions of a true democracy can be nudged toward better educating themselves about what the "representative" part of "representative democracy" entails. But having long since dismissed such notions myself, I'll thank you to spare me any claims that each vote counts equally and gives us each an equal say in the direction and course of our nation.

cumhail

 

[J Heartless Slick]

Originally posted by: Arsynic
I've been debating this over and over again, and I keep coming to the same conclusion:

If I don't vote, I'll have to pay taxes, grow old and die.

If I do vote, I'll have to pay taxes, grow old and die.

Maybe I have the problem of looking at the big picture way too much. Have fun in November. I hope Bush wins...maybe it will go overtime just like it did in 2000.

You want Bush to be re-elected but you do not intend to vote?

There is a flaw in your reasoning some where

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Arsynic
I've been debating this over and over again, and I keep coming to the same conclusion:

If I don't vote, I'll have to pay taxes, grow old and die.

If I do vote, I'll have to pay taxes, grow old and die.

Maybe I have the problem of looking at the big picture way too much. Have fun in November. I hope Bush wins...maybe it will go overtime just like it did in 2000.

What I find interesting about your post is that you should bother to announce this. Looking at the big picture I equally could give a rats ass if you vote or not. I wouldn't bother to tell you but since you seem to think it's impoortant to tell me well, monkey see monkey do.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: oreagan

Originally posted by: Mardeth

Originally posted by: cobalt

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: kage69
Those who don't vote forfeit their right to bitch (and be taken seriously anyway).

Why? Because they choose not to partake in a patently fraudulent system? I respect people who choose not to vote. Voting makes the plutocrats in office think that what they are doing is legitimate. To them it legitimizes the theft, fraud and tyranny that the plutocrats engage in on a daily basis.

They have no right to complain about anything in their lives. They should not cry how "my life sucks because blah blah does sh*t for the country" or "I'm poor because of some f*g". They have no right to complain if they don't vote. If you want to change this country and make it a better place you HAVE to vote. You SHOULD vote. You SHOULD be greatful you even have that right and that we aren't living in a dicatorship. People like him make me sick and sad that I live in such a country where people take everything for granted and then spew bullsh*t because they are so ignorant.

You make it sound like US is unique, your not the only democratic country in the world, you know. Theres maybe 5 countrys ruled by dictators and maybe 15 that have a questionable rulership.
And when has your democratic values been threatened?

When the US formed, how many democracies were there in the world? You have any idea how many of the leading scholars of the 18th and early 19th centuries mocked the "American experiment?" You know how many prophecied an end within 10, 20 or 100 years? Rousseau called democracy the government of gods, unachievable by men and not worth trying to attain. Tocqueville said he saw a race war brewing between the whites and blacks or perhaps native americans, one that would destroy all of us and that he saw no possible excape from.

America is unique and always has been.

LOL. Yeah, look what America has today. An IRS and a string of bureaucracies that confiscates over 40% of our GDP, millions of regulations that impose an additional cost of $900 billion on businesses, a Federal Reserve that inflates the currency year in and year out, a Patriot Act that has destroyed our civil liberties, gun control laws all over the place, a national debt that is absolutely shameful etc. etc. etc.

Democracy has failed us in every way possible, and that's why I can't understand how people can go around singing praises about democracy. In fact, I see it as a sign of major ignorance to do so.

 

[oreagan]

Originally posted by: cumhail

Originally posted by: dmw16
I really can't stand the 'my vote doesn't count' attitude. If everyone thought their vote didn't count and didn't vote then where would we be. Look at Florida 4 years ago. A few votes counted there. So get out a vote, it is your responsability as an American - or the very least you can do to thank those hundreds of thousands who have died defending this country.

And all this 'America is destined to fail' thing comes off like some pseudo-intellectual, trying to impress someone(punk girl?) by reading some communist literature. Read it to be educated, but don't come on here and quote some crap.

-doug

Yes, look at Florida, where scores of people had their votes unfairly and illegally discounted? Did their votes count?

Look at the California recall, where rather than seek to impeach and convict a governor for whatever transgressions and crimes he may have committed, they threw the votes from the initial election out and proceeded to build a three-ring circus with an action movie star running against, among others, a porn star and a former child star from the 80's. Those who votes in the initial election, based on their desire to be part of something more than just a media event... Did their votes count?

Look at each time a senator or representative votes on legislation based on what his/her campaign contributors want, rather than what the voters he/she represents want. Did their votes counts?

Look at the 2000 election as a whole, where we learned that the popular vote means little-to-nothing and that the election is determined by the votes of a select few who never had to get any of our votes to have that privilege... two such sets of people, in fact (first the electoral college, and then the supreme court). Did our votes count?

I'll vote in the November elections, just as I have in each election I've been eligible to vote in since I turned 18... I'll vote, and I'll hope that others vote, in hopes that, if nothing else, people who still hold onto romantic notions of a true democracy can be nudged toward better educating themselves about what the "representative" part of "representative democracy" entails. But having long since dismissed such notions myself, I'll thank you to spare me any claims that each vote counts equally and gives us each an equal say in the direction and course of our nation.

cumhail

We remember the 2000 election and California recall election because they are exceptions to the rule. Anyway, representative democracy isn't all that bad is it? Do you really want Average Joe Proud-To-Not-Vote to decide farm subsidies? Do you expect him to make an informed decision on a budget that would take him years to read though? Representation has its bad sides, but it's even more necessary now than it was when the country started.

 

[Zephyr106]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

LOL. Yeah, look what America has today. An IRS and a string of bureaucracies that confiscates over 40% of our GDP, millions of regulations that impose an additional cost of $900 billion on businesses, a Federal Reserve that inflates the currency year in and year out, a Patriot Act that has destroyed our civil liberties, gun control laws all over the place, a national debt that is absolutely shameful etc. etc. etc.

Democracy has failed us in every way possible, and that's why I can't understand how people can go around singing praises about democracy. In fact, I see it as a sign of major ignorance to do so.

What form of government would you propose we adopt to replace this dreadful failing democracy? Please say theocratic dictatorship.

Zephyr

 

[piasabird]

Just hope you dont have to pay a death tax???

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Zephyr106

Originally posted by: Dissipate

LOL. Yeah, look what America has today. An IRS and a string of bureaucracies that confiscates over 40% of our GDP, millions of regulations that impose an additional cost of $900 billion on businesses, a Federal Reserve that inflates the currency year in and year out, a Patriot Act that has destroyed our civil liberties, gun control laws all over the place, a national debt that is absolutely shameful etc. etc. etc.

Democracy has failed us in every way possible, and that's why I can't understand how people can go around singing praises about democracy. In fact, I see it as a sign of major ignorance to do so.

What form of government would you propose we adopt to replace this dreadful failing democracy? Please say theocratic dictatorship.

Zephyr

Nope. No form of government. Every politician should be fired, and all political posts should be removed. No more elections. People need to stop asking others to exercise force on their behalf, because when you get down to it, that is all politics is.

 

[oreagan]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: oreagan

Originally posted by: Mardeth

Originally posted by: cobalt

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: kage69
Those who don't vote forfeit their right to bitch (and be taken seriously anyway).

Why? Because they choose not to partake in a patently fraudulent system? I respect people who choose not to vote. Voting makes the plutocrats in office think that what they are doing is legitimate. To them it legitimizes the theft, fraud and tyranny that the plutocrats engage in on a daily basis.

They have no right to complain about anything in their lives. They should not cry how "my life sucks because blah blah does sh*t for the country" or "I'm poor because of some f*g". They have no right to complain if they don't vote. If you want to change this country and make it a better place you HAVE to vote. You SHOULD vote. You SHOULD be greatful you even have that right and that we aren't living in a dicatorship. People like him make me sick and sad that I live in such a country where people take everything for granted and then spew bullsh*t because they are so ignorant.

You make it sound like US is unique, your not the only democratic country in the world, you know. Theres maybe 5 countrys ruled by dictators and maybe 15 that have a questionable rulership.
And when has your democratic values been threatened?

When the US formed, how many democracies were there in the world? You have any idea how many of the leading scholars of the 18th and early 19th centuries mocked the "American experiment?" You know how many prophecied an end within 10, 20 or 100 years? Rousseau called democracy the government of gods, unachievable by men and not worth trying to attain. Tocqueville said he saw a race war brewing between the whites and blacks or perhaps native americans, one that would destroy all of us and that he saw no possible excape from.

America is unique and always has been.

LOL. Yeah, look what America has today. An IRS and a string of bureaucracies that confiscates over 40% of our GDP, millions of regulations that impose an additional cost of $900 billion on businesses, a Federal Reserve that inflates the currency year in and year out, a Patriot Act that has destroyed our civil liberties, gun control laws all over the place, a national debt that is absolutely shameful etc. etc. etc.

Democracy has failed us in every way possible, and that's why I can't understand how people can go around singing praises about democracy. In fact, I see it as a sign of major ignorance to do so.

What is the alternative to the IRS? No taxes? The people demand the government services we're used to. Taxes are necessary. Are you saying they should be voluntary with no accountability? Find a way to convince America we don't need Social Security, Medicare, national defense, and law enforcement and we'll talk.

The Federal Reserve has a very specific job - to keep depressions from going Great. In order to do this, they also have to make sure expansions don't get out of hand. We can ride the rollercoaster of 20s boom economy and 30th Depression-era forever, or we can use our modern understanding of economics and monetary policy to keep things improving steadily for as long as America exists. Which would you choose?

The Patriot act sucks, I agree. You haven't waited for the real kicker of American government, though - we make mistakes, but we can fix them. It may not be immediate, but that act is going to be revoked through Congress and court in the next decade. That is a very powerful thing. In times of war we often go too far, but we're no longer under Lincoln's martial law, we're no longer interning the Japanese (and we've apologized and paid reparations for that), we're no longer writing blacklists for political affiliation. Right now we're in a state of war and so things aren't all as they should be, but they will improve.

Edit: Also, to drag out an easy quote:
"Democracy is the very worst form of government, except for every other form." - Winston Churchill

If democracy is so awful, what should we go with? Tyranny? Theocracy? Oligarchy?

 

[Zephyr106]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Zephyr106

Originally posted by: Dissipate

LOL. Yeah, look what America has today. An IRS and a string of bureaucracies that confiscates over 40% of our GDP, millions of regulations that impose an additional cost of $900 billion on businesses, a Federal Reserve that inflates the currency year in and year out, a Patriot Act that has destroyed our civil liberties, gun control laws all over the place, a national debt that is absolutely shameful etc. etc. etc.

Democracy has failed us in every way possible, and that's why I can't understand how people can go around singing praises about democracy. In fact, I see it as a sign of major ignorance to do so.

What form of government would you propose we adopt to replace this dreadful failing democracy? Please say theocratic dictatorship.

Zephyr

Nope. No form of government. Every politician should be fired, and all political posts should be removed. No more elections. People need to stop asking others to exercise force on their behalf, because when you get down to it, that is all politics is.

So Mad Max shows a Utopian Society?

Zephyr

 

[Fingolfin269]

The OP is a freaking troll.

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: dmw16
I really can't stand the 'my vote doesn't count' attitude. If everyone thought their vote didn't count and didn't vote then where would we be.

lol, if everyone thought their vote didn't count then we would surely be revolting to form a system were our votes actually did count. is that such a bad thing?

 

[oreagan]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Zephyr106

Originally posted by: Dissipate

LOL. Yeah, look what America has today. An IRS and a string of bureaucracies that confiscates over 40% of our GDP, millions of regulations that impose an additional cost of $900 billion on businesses, a Federal Reserve that inflates the currency year in and year out, a Patriot Act that has destroyed our civil liberties, gun control laws all over the place, a national debt that is absolutely shameful etc. etc. etc.

Democracy has failed us in every way possible, and that's why I can't understand how people can go around singing praises about democracy. In fact, I see it as a sign of major ignorance to do so.

What form of government would you propose we adopt to replace this dreadful failing democracy? Please say theocratic dictatorship.

Zephyr

Nope. No form of government. Every politician should be fired, and all political posts should be removed. No more elections. People need to stop asking others to exercise force on their behalf, because when you get down to it, that is all politics is.

Hahaha, OOOH, a parody poster. Man, you had me going. Yeah, rule of law sucks!

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: oreagan

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: oreagan

Originally posted by: Mardeth

Originally posted by: cobalt

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: kage69
Those who don't vote forfeit their right to bitch (and be taken seriously anyway).

Why? Because they choose not to partake in a patently fraudulent system? I respect people who choose not to vote. Voting makes the plutocrats in office think that what they are doing is legitimate. To them it legitimizes the theft, fraud and tyranny that the plutocrats engage in on a daily basis.

They have no right to complain about anything in their lives. They should not cry how "my life sucks because blah blah does sh*t for the country" or "I'm poor because of some f*g". They have no right to complain if they don't vote. If you want to change this country and make it a better place you HAVE to vote. You SHOULD vote. You SHOULD be greatful you even have that right and that we aren't living in a dicatorship. People like him make me sick and sad that I live in such a country where people take everything for granted and then spew bullsh*t because they are so ignorant.

You make it sound like US is unique, your not the only democratic country in the world, you know. Theres maybe 5 countrys ruled by dictators and maybe 15 that have a questionable rulership.
And when has your democratic values been threatened?

When the US formed, how many democracies were there in the world? You have any idea how many of the leading scholars of the 18th and early 19th centuries mocked the "American experiment?" You know how many prophecied an end within 10, 20 or 100 years? Rousseau called democracy the government of gods, unachievable by men and not worth trying to attain. Tocqueville said he saw a race war brewing between the whites and blacks or perhaps native americans, one that would destroy all of us and that he saw no possible excape from.

America is unique and always has been.

LOL. Yeah, look what America has today. An IRS and a string of bureaucracies that confiscates over 40% of our GDP, millions of regulations that impose an additional cost of $900 billion on businesses, a Federal Reserve that inflates the currency year in and year out, a Patriot Act that has destroyed our civil liberties, gun control laws all over the place, a national debt that is absolutely shameful etc. etc. etc.

Democracy has failed us in every way possible, and that's why I can't understand how people can go around singing praises about democracy. In fact, I see it as a sign of major ignorance to do so.

What is the alternative to the IRS? No taxes? The people demand the government services we're used to. Taxes are necessary. Are you saying they should be voluntary with no accountability? Find a way to convince America we don't need Social Security, Medicare, national defense, and law enforcement and we'll talk.

You have hit the nail on the head. Millions of special interests who want the government to pay for their pet projects. How do they get the government to pay for them? By enacting an agency like the IRS to go out there and steal from productive citizens. How is this possible, one might wonder? Through our "wonderful" system of "representative" democracy. Taxes are not necessary, and that is what no one seems to understand. The idea that we couldn't have a peaceful and prosperous society without a federal government is absurd. The only service that could possibily be defended is national defense, but even that has a budget about 10x what it should be.

The Federal Reserve has a very specific job - to keep depressions from going Great. In order to do this, they also have to make sure expansions don't get out of hand. We can ride the rollercoaster of 20s boom economy and 30th Depression-era forever, or we can use our modern understanding of economics and monetary policy to keep things improving steadily for as long as America exists. Which would you choose?

Wow, you have really bought into the statist lies, lock, stock and barrel! The Federal Reserve was what caused and prolonged the Great Depression in the first place! Economists have shown that the stock market crash of 1929 and the subsequent events that caused the economy to collapse was caused by an expansion of the credit by the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve, has a very specific job, that is true. But it has nothing to do with "stability", it has everything to do with maintaining a banking cartel. Furthermore, the Federal Reserve prints the money, which the IRS can tax. By getting people to accept a common unit of account the politicians can extract wealth anywhere and everywhere. It has literally blown the doors off of taxation. It is no coincidence that the income tax was passed the same year the Federal Reserve Act was enacted.

The idea that we couldn't have a privatized monetary system is an utter myth which is perpetuated by ignorance and complacence.

The Patriot act sucks, I agree. You haven't waited for the real kicker of American government, though - we make mistakes, but we can fix them. It may not be immediate, but that act is going to be revoked through Congress and court in the next decade. That is a very powerful thing. In times of war we often go too far, but we're no longer under Lincoln's martial law, we're no longer interning the Japanese (and we've apologized and paid reparations for that), we're no longer writing blacklists for political affiliation. Right now we're in a state of war and so things aren't all as they should be, but they will improve.

We are in war because the politicians know that whenever we are in war people are afraid. Whenever people are afraid they run to the government for "protection." You are a good example, you are afraid of depressions and so you seek solace in a government created entity: The Federal Reserve. You are exactly the kind of person the statists love to have walking around. Someone to sing praises about the centralized power of the feds.

 

[oreagan]

Whew! That is one amazing little world you live in.

You have hit the nail on the head. Millions of special interests who want the government to pay for their pet projects. How do they get the government to pay for them? By enacting an agency like the IRS to go out there and steal from productive citizens. How is this possible, one might wonder? Through our "wonderful" system of "representative" democracy. Taxes are not necessary, and that is what no one seems to understand. The idea that we couldn't have a peaceful and prosperous society without a federal government is absurd. The only service that could possibily be defended is national defense, but even that has a budget about 10x what it should be.

If you consider citizens of the United States "millions of special interests" (which I guess they are in a way) then yes, it's them who want government services. They enjoy driving on paved and relatively safe roads on their way to a financially secure bank to store their money they earned in a job where they got paid a wage they can live on. It's a real cespit, really. Those little old ladies have the temerity to ask society to stop someone who want to steal their money and kill them! The nerve!

Theft is unlawfully taking money without recompense. The IRS is lawfully taking money in exchange for government services. Nothing says you have to be an American citizen, you can leave the country if you wish, but while you're here you're using our defenses and our roads and our government-developed internet so stop your whining when you get asked to chip in your fair share.

Wow, you have really bought into the statist lies, lock, stock and barrel! The Federal Reserve was what caused and prolonged the Great Depression in the first place! Economists have shown that the stock market crash of 1929 and the subsequent events that caused the economy to collapse was caused by an expansion of the credit by the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve, has a very specific job, that is true. But it has nothing to do with "stability", it has everything to do with maintaining a banking cartel. Furthermore, the Federal Reserve prints the money, which the IRS can tax. By getting people to accept a common unit of account the politicians can extract wealth anywhere and everywhere. It has literally blown the doors off of taxation. It is no coincidence that the income tax was passed the same year the Federal Reserve Act was enacted.

The idea that we couldn't have a privatized monetary system is an utter myth which is perpetuated by ignorance and complacence.

The Federal Reserve DOES deserve much of the blame for making the Great Depression worse. The reason is that they didn't understand monetary policy well enough at the time (nor did anyone else) and for whatever reason were reluctant to be activist. Their passivity is what worsened the Depression, not their existance.

It is no coincidence that the income tax was passed the same year as the Federal Reserve Act. Both were part of the New Deal. The Agricultural Adjustment Act was also passed at the same time as the Works Progress Administration. Does that mean that it was a nefarious plot for to get farmers to grow food so we could enslave people in government jobs building dams and infrastructure for the country? Or could it be that the country wanted reform to get out of the Depression and FDR made it happen?

You need to read up on the Depression era. FDR came into office promising a balanced budget but that simply isn't the fastest way to get out of a depression. Government inactivity didn't work for Hoover and it wouldn't work for FDR.

I'm not even going to try to detangle your conspiracy theories. They're funny, but not it's-worth-the-time funny.

We are in war because the politicians know that whenever we are in war people are afraid. Whenever people are afraid they run to the government for "protection." You are a good example, you are afraid of depressions and so you seek solace in a government created entity: The Federal Reserve. You are exactly the kind of person the statists love to have walking around. Someone to sing praises about the centralized power of the feds.

No, I don't want to live through Depressions and I'm willing to sacrifice boom times for that. Yes, I've bothered to learn modern economics in both the classroom and in my own time. Yes, I've also taken the time to study Political Theory, a subject from which you seem to throw around an awful lot of terms without an understanding of the subject itself. Shame on me. I am so VERY sorry.

Again, conspiracies aren't real. It's nice to pretend, but let's not start believing our own propaganda.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: oreagan
Whew! That is one amazing little world you live in.

You have hit the nail on the head. Millions of special interests who want the government to pay for their pet projects. How do they get the government to pay for them? By enacting an agency like the IRS to go out there and steal from productive citizens. How is this possible, one might wonder? Through our "wonderful" system of "representative" democracy. Taxes are not necessary, and that is what no one seems to understand. The idea that we couldn't have a peaceful and prosperous society without a federal government is absurd. The only service that could possibily be defended is national defense, but even that has a budget about 10x what it should be.

If you consider citizens of the United States "millions of special interests" (which I guess they are in a way) then yes, it's them who want government services. They enjoy driving on paved and relatively safe roads on their way to a financially secure bank to store their money they earned in a job where they got paid a wage they can live on. It's a real cespit, really. Those little old ladies have the temerity to ask society to stop someone who want to steal their money and kill them! The nerve!

You call a financially secure bank one that is at all times bankrupt and must be bailed out by government agencies?! You call the roads we drive on safe?!! Road socialism is an abomination. It has caused traffic jams that cost us billions of dollars a year and it has perpetuated tens of thousands of deaths yearly. Text

Theft is unlawfully taking money without recompense. The IRS is lawfully taking money in exchange for government services. Nothing says you have to be an American citizen, you can leave the country if you wish, but while you're here you're using our defenses and our roads and our government-developed internet so stop your whining when you get asked to chip in your fair share.

The IRS may be "lawfully" taking money under the own laws that the government created itself, but in terms of fundamental rights of human beings, it is violating on a daily basis. Here we go again with the "you can leave the country" argument. Why should I have to leave my own country in order to live without statism? And here we go with the "fair share" (this is a hoot). That is the most collectivistic and inane phrase around. My "fair shair" is what everyone's "fair share" is: 0. Because as I have said before, coercive taxation is a fundamental violation of human rights. The very idea that my talents, my time and my productive energies is owned by the government is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. This is like saying, it is ok for the mob to come in to your business and force you to pay up because they will give you "protection."

Wow, you have really bought into the statist lies, lock, stock and barrel! The Federal Reserve was what caused and prolonged the Great Depression in the first place! Economists have shown that the stock market crash of 1929 and the subsequent events that caused the economy to collapse was caused by an expansion of the credit by the Federal Reserve. The Federal Reserve, has a very specific job, that is true. But it has nothing to do with "stability", it has everything to do with maintaining a banking cartel. Furthermore, the Federal Reserve prints the money, which the IRS can tax. By getting people to accept a common unit of account the politicians can extract wealth anywhere and everywhere. It has literally blown the doors off of taxation. It is no coincidence that the income tax was passed the same year the Federal Reserve Act was enacted.

The idea that we couldn't have a privatized monetary system is an utter myth which is perpetuated by ignorance and complacence.

The Federal Reserve DOES deserve much of the blame for making the Great Depression worse. The reason is that they didn't understand monetary policy well enough at the time (nor did anyone else) and for whatever reason were reluctant to be activist. Their passivity is what worsened the Depression, not their existance.

Oh yeah, they know how to manage the economy better than individuals themselves? Give me a break. The idea that the government is needed to manage the economy is about is absurd as saying the government is needed to own the economy.

It is no coincidence that the income tax was passed the same year as the Federal Reserve Act. Both were part of the New Deal. The Agricultural Adjustment Act was also passed at the same time as the Works Progress Administration. Does that mean that it was a nefarious plot for to get farmers to grow food so we could enslave people in government jobs building dams and infrastructure for the country? Or could it be that the country wanted reform to get out of the Depression and FDR made it happen?

FDR did no such thing! All of his New Deal programs have been shown to have done virtually nothing in terms of getting the country out of the depression. All he did was confiscate everyone's gold and then sold it to foreigners at insane profits.

You need to read up on the Depression era. FDR came into office promising a balanced budget but that simply isn't the fastest way to get out of a depression. Government inactivity didn't work for Hoover and it wouldn't work for FDR.

I'm not even going to try to detangle your conspiracy theories. They're funny, but not it's-worth-the-time funny.

What conspiracy theories? The entire government is a conspiracy, that is true, but it is fashioned in a way that no one (such as yourself) thinks of it as such. It is all in plain view, but statists such as yourself have interpreted the government's actions as being a good thing.

We are in war because the politicians know that whenever we are in war people are afraid. Whenever people are afraid they run to the government for "protection." You are a good example, you are afraid of depressions and so you seek solace in a government created entity: The Federal Reserve. You are exactly the kind of person the statists love to have walking around. Someone to sing praises about the centralized power of the feds.

No, I don't want to live through Depressions and I'm willing to sacrifice boom times for that. Yes, I've bothered to learn modern economics in both the classroom and in my own time. Yes, I've also taken the time to study Political Theory, a subject from which you seem to throw around an awful lot of terms without an understanding of the subject itself. Shame on me. I am so VERY sorry.

You have learned modern economics and you are going around espousing the greatness of the IRS?! I don't know what professors you have been learning from, but whoever they are they need to be fired.

Again, conspiracies aren't real. It's nice to pretend, but let's not start believing our own propaganda.

As Walter Block said: "If you can't tell what the exercise of force is, you have no place in discussing politics." This has nothing to do with propaganda. It has everything to do with you having a serious deficiency in understanding what force is. Walter Block suffered from the same thing and was a socialist such as yourself, but once he figured out what force is he became one of the world's foremost anarcho-capitalists. He figured it out, so can you, I know you can. BTW, here is some political theory for you to read:A Theory of Socialism and Capitalism and an econ textbook for you to boot: Capitalism A Treatise on Economics. Plenty of modern economics, I'm sure it will last you awhile.

 

[Bonesdad]

Originally posted by: Arsynic

Originally posted by: Hossenfeffer
There's really no reason -not- to vote, other than the apathy it would take you from mailing in an abentee ballot or strolling into the polls.

You're given the right to have a small percentage in the say of how things are run. Why not chime in on the side that most fits your ideals?

None of them fit my ideals. I just think it's fun to watch. I think I'm in the majority.

I think you're in the moronity

 

[onelove]

he's already accepted that he relinquishes his right to complain - what's so hard to understand that some will choose not to participate? The critisizers should try a little harder to understand why so many people don't vote.

He's pretty close to being in the majority - last I checked there were more than 105 million people in this country, that's how many voted in 2000: link to 2000 general election numbers I've heard it said that equals about 52% of eligible voters.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman

Originally posted by: LunarRay
I find voting to be a duty of the citizen. My vote may not matter much in the grand scheme of things but, our votes do matter. We are the government. Not Bush or Gore or Kerry or me or you... but, us. To sustain this way of life we must get away from elections being won by half the eligible voters. If every one eligible to vote voted the mandate for a platform of ideas would force the will of the people on the Congress and the Executive. It would force them to do as they promised.
To not vote is an abandonment of the ideals we espouse. I agree with the folks who say 'if you don't vote don't complain' If you don't vote you don't belong posting an opinion on related topics. I figure you've abdicated a responsibility and thereby lost the right to subsequently voice an opinion. IMO.

do you really think that if i would have voted for Bush he would have kept good on his promises like the " nation-building" and "not the worlds policemen" rhetoric? granted, i did favor Bush in the last election and i didn't bother to vote as my states electoral votes were locked for him anyway, but do you really think that voteing would have changed anything? i don't buy it.

As I said, in the grand scheme one vote is but one vote but, if I can get 100,000 of you non voters to vote your conscience it may. Even if the vote of these folks ended up 51 to 49 percent that 2 points may change things but, for sure when every one votes the politicians know we all care.