Protesters Burn Gun Registration Forms

[smackababy]

You're right its not a perfect "solves everything" solution, but it could be a decent tool for law enforcement among the others they have.

Also, a criminal using guns to commit murder knows not to use the same gun over and over to commit multiple crimes. The technology absolutely does exist for authorities to be able to tell the same gun (therefore likely the same criminal) is being used, thereby linking seemingly unrelated crimes together. I say do whatever is technically possible to make this even more likely, so that committing crimes with the same gun becomes an increasing guarantee of getting caught.

I like tech that only lets a weapons legit owner fire a weapon as well. Again, not for every gun, but for when it makes sense, why not?

Sometimes they can match the bullets in multiple crimes. They are going by the markings of the recoverable slug which is from the barrel. Each time a gun is fired, that changes, even if just a tiny amount. It is entirely possible for a groove making a mark in the slug to be worn down to the point it no longer leaves a mark, thus making the bullet not an exact match (which it probably never is, similar to DNA).

If doing whatever is technically possible infringes upon the rights of everyone, then no, you don't do it. Police doing random house searches without a warrant would certainly catch more criminals and is technically possible. Should they be allowed to do that? It makes sense!

As far as technology only allowing the owner to fire it, I am not sure we even have reliable technology for that. If we have some kind of special grip that sequences DNA instantly to only allow the registered owner to use it, fine. However, if it takes any kind of time to authenticate that is longer than it takes me to pull the trigger, it is worthless when I would need a gun.

If a stolen one had the serial number on it then it can lead investigators to the gun owner who may be able to provide information on the criminal that stole the gun. Even if the owner doesn't know the thief it can provide a link to an area where a criminal is familiar with or to another association that would help investigators. Sometimes it takes just a missing link to advance a case.

Most criminals don't have the thought or time to really clean and cleanse a gun. They typically just toss them away while trying to get away.

True, but if I am going to buy a gun to commit a crime, it is far likely I am going to buy one that is stolen, rather than go to the local gun store and fill out the appropriate paperwork. And, I might even make the extra investment to get one with the serial numbers removed.

If you are trying to argue that criminals are stupid as proof we need some kind of special 'fingerprinting' technology in guns and a database to keep said information along with users, I don't have much to say about that.

 

[sunzt]

True, but if I am going to buy a gun to commit a crime, it is far likely I am going to buy one that is stolen, rather than go to the local gun store and fill out the appropriate paperwork. And, I might even make the extra investment to get one with the serial numbers removed.

If you are trying to argue that criminals are stupid as proof we need some kind of special 'fingerprinting' technology in guns and a database to keep said information along with users, I don't have much to say about that.

All I'm saying is that gun tracing is a proven tool for investigators to solve crimes. Like anything else it's not perfect, but its flaws are not a reason for doing away with gun tracing in general, nor discount ability to help investigations.

 

[momeNt]

Isn't 3d printing and plastic gun technology make all this moot?

 

[sunzt]

Isn't 3d printing and plastic gun technology make all this moot?

I wonder if the gun manufacturers are on board with that technology. Sound like it can seriously threaten their business. Print your own gun and print your own ammo.

 

[rommelrommel]

Actually guns are unique enough that authorities can often tell when the same one is used in multiple crimes.

You're the one who needs to get to reality if you think criminals don't often seek out untraceable weapons to commit crimes with. And that they dont ditch weapons that they suspect are traceable.

PURPOSEFULLY making sure every single gun owned by law abiding citizens is as unique and as traceable as possible, is absolutely a goal that's desirable and obtainable.

Like I say, its the gun-grabbing nuts that are the biggest obstacle to this, because in their anti-gun insanity, no one trusts them with the information that'd be available, and with good cause. Rather than a deterrent to crime, anti gun nuts would likely try and abuse improved gun-tracking technology to further their own stupid agendas against the law abiding.

Again, you need to read some more about this.

Pistol barrels are made out of barrel blanks, which are usually 3-4 feet long at least. Those barrels are all cut on the same machine, with the same toolhead, until it wears out, at which point it's replaced by a extremely similar toolhead which was probably made on the same machine out of the same materials as the one before.

Assuming you recover a bullet in good enough shape for analysis, at best you may be able to say that it could have been fired from the same gun. Trying to say that it was say, a particular glock 17 and not the glock 17 made out of the next 5" of barrel off that blank is impossible to argue with anything approaching certainty. Barrel variations are not on the same level of uniqueness as DNA, or even fingerprints. They also change over time (firings) and can be altered.

Narrowing down the possiblities can be done by groove/land pattern, metalurgic analysis, and the impression left on the bullet but any "expert" claiming anything nearing 100% certainty gets filed along with lie detector operators that claim they are 100% accurate... self serving nonsense.

 

[Phanuel]

Law enforcement actually use the casings of fired rounds to do firearms matching. The bullets themselves are usually far too mangled or fragmented to be of any use in forensics beyond determining trajectory.

The casings are usually in excellent condition since they just fell out of the firearm and onto the ground without being destroyed. They match the imprints the bore and chamber leave on the casings.

 

[RampantAndroid]

I wonder if the gun manufacturers are on board with that technology. Sound like it can seriously threaten their business. Print your own gun and print your own ammo.

You can print metals, fine....but it won't make sense to ever print ammo, really.

Moreover, a lot of guns such as a 1911 require fitting, and some armorers tools to assemble them. I would think if anything firearms manufacturers would embrace the change (if it can produce guns stronger than forging or casting.)

 

[rommelrommel]

If 3D printers can economically turn out something with the quality of say, a Noveske, a lot more industries than gun manufacturing are in trouble.

 

[feralkid]

Law enforcement actually use the casings of fired rounds to do firearms matching. The bullets themselves are usually far too mangled or fragmented to be of any use in forensics beyond determining trajectory.

The casings are usually in excellent condition since they just fell out of the firearm and onto the ground without being destroyed. They match the imprints the bore and chamber leave on the casings.

Also the impression left by the firing pin.

 

[RampantAndroid]

If 3D printers can economically turn out something with the quality of say, a Noveske, a lot more industries than gun manufacturing are in trouble.

Not really. A lot of Noveske's work is in the DESIGN. So if you're telling me that people will steal Noveske's designs (and patents) and then print guns, well....no. A lot of gun stuff still needs to be made normally - springs being one example. Further, as I said before a lot of fitting is needed on parts, and finally expertise in setting everything up, such as making sure your head spacing is good, because if it isn't good you might blow the chamber up.

 

[WackyDan]

A great point.

I think it'd be an interesting idea to have a national ballistics database kept from the time of a weapon's manufacture. Sort of like a fingerprint database.

I'm personally not totally against logical registration, so long as its not ever abused by busibodies, and the information requires a court order to view.

Basically its been proven criminals don't like weapons that are traceable, and guns actually leave a lot of traceable evidence. Criminals go to great effort to ditch guns they know can be traced. I'm all for any tech that makes tracing a weapon that much more of a guarantee... its ironic that its the busibody gun grabbers that are biggest roadblock to this, because overcoming everyone's distrust of their crazy agendas is the biggest problem.

NY, MD and some other states do this already... Spend millions on it actually. Been doing it for years. ** Has yet to identify a gun or owner from casings and rounds recovered from crime scenes. So yeah...Lets advocate for an expensive program with no proven results. It is also backdoor registration.

 

[WackyDan]

Law enforcement actually use the casings of fired rounds to do firearms matching. The bullets themselves are usually far too mangled or fragmented to be of any use in forensics beyond determining trajectory.

The casings are usually in excellent condition since they just fell out of the firearm and onto the ground without being destroyed. They match the imprints the bore and chamber leave on the casings.

Same issue applies. The last two handguns I've bought have been ballistic fingerprinted. I promise you that the 5000+ rounds of ammo through one and near 3000 through the other has rendered that casing fingerprint null and void. Not to mention the fact that one is a revolver and wouldn't leave any casings behind unless you reloaded.

Stupidity.

 

[RampantAndroid]

Law enforcement actually use the casings of fired rounds to do firearms matching. The bullets themselves are usually far too mangled or fragmented to be of any use in forensics beyond determining trajectory.

The casings are usually in excellent condition since they just fell out of the firearm and onto the ground without being destroyed. They match the imprints the bore and chamber leave on the casings.

Which is why anyone experienced picks up their casings, or uses a revolver.

 

[her209]

We are not talking about people in general, the law is targeting a certain demographic.

No different than a law that requires registration of automatic weapons for anyone wanting to possess such a weapon. Or voting laws that apply only to the people who vote. Or laws that prohibit sale of alcohol to people under age 21. Or abortion laws that in reality apply only to women. Etc.

 

[Matt1970]

Loving all the terrible analogies...

So um, what does requiring gun registration have to do with infringing upon your supposed holy enshrined right to carry a gun?

NY is a prime example. When you register your weapon, you do so by model number. Now when states like NY, California or D.C. decide to unconstitutional ban a certain gun because of the scary way you hold it or whatever, the state now has a nice long list of those now "law breakers". Those lists are also being made public.

 

[HumblePie]

Which is why anyone experienced picks up their casings, or uses a revolver.

Doesn't mean that many a person has been put behind bars from "experts" on crappy ballistic matching junk science. Almost as bad as hair sample comparison analysis instead of actual DNA testing. It was one of the junk pseudo science "forensics" that was created by law enforcement officers to up their conviction rates and not something created by actual scientists that went through the scientific method of vetting the system.

Groove matching on bullets and even casings has been shown to be junk science. Especially since manufacturers use the same groove making machine to usually very tight tolerances on barrels. Meaning the bullets fired from two brand new identical guns are going to match up to both guns. It's stupid.

 

[SpatiallyAware]

NY is a prime example. When you register your weapon, you do so by model number. Now when states like NY, California or D.C. decide to unconstitutional ban a certain gun because of the scary way you hold it or whatever, the state now has a nice long list of those now "law breakers". Those lists are also being made public.

Yup. This is what happens when you try to abide by gun-grabber laws... Time and time again they have screwed over innocent citizens who try to follow their insane laws.

Best thing to do at this point is move out of these liberalie states.

 

[rommelrommel]

Doesn't mean that many a person has been put behind bars from "experts" on crappy ballistic matching junk science. Almost as bad as hair sample comparison analysis instead of actual DNA testing. It was one of the junk pseudo science "forensics" that was created by law enforcement officers to up their conviction rates and not something created by actual scientists that went through the scientific method of vetting the system.

Groove matching on bullets and even casings has been shown to be junk science. Especially since manufacturers use the same groove making machine to usually very tight tolerances on barrels. Meaning the bullets fired from two brand new identical guns are going to match up to both guns. It's stupid.

Thank you... it's junk science and not credible for many reasons.

 

[rommelrommel]

NY, MD and some other states do this already... Spend millions on it actually. Been doing it for years. ** Has yet to identify a gun or owner from casings and rounds recovered from crime scenes. So yeah...Lets advocate for an expensive program with no proven results. It is also backdoor registration.

As far as I can verify MD only does this for a single spent casing on new handgun sales, and NY only does this for a single bullet with guns issued to officers.

 

[HumblePie]

Thank you... it's junk science and not credible for many reasons.

Which is why Cali passed the law for microstamping the casing. Which would only matter if the casings are found at the scene of the crime. The bullet found wouldn't mean squat. But in the case of a revolver or the person taking the time to pick up their casing it wouldn't make a lick of difference.

However, it could allow people to frame others. Leave a casing with a different microstamp at the scene of someone you want to frame. Instant suspicion. More than likely instant conviction too based on how people have been convicted in the past solely upon junk forensic science that has been used. There is good forensic science, and there is really bad junk as well.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

NY is a prime example. When you register your weapon, you do so by model number. Now when states like NY, California or D.C. decide to unconstitutional ban a certain gun because of the scary way you hold it or whatever, the state now has a nice long list of those now "law breakers". Those lists are also being made public.

Und, if you do not turn over zee list, vee haf vays of getting it.
http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/17/feds-raid-gun-parts-stores-despite-court-order/#ixzz2wPQ98hGv

 

[SpatiallyAware]

Und, if you do not turn over zee list, vee haf vays of getting it.
http://fox5sandiego.com/2014/03/17/feds-raid-gun-parts-stores-despite-court-order/#ixzz2wPQ98hGv

This is exactly why pro self-defense states and citizens will not cooperate with ANY gun grabber bills.