Property Taxes: Are they *needed*?

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Caminetto

Senior member
Jul 29, 2001
821
49
91
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I plan to purchase a home while assuming that property taxes will go up. If you plan ahead like that and leave yourself some extra money in your budget for such things then you don't run into these kinds of problems because you basically are thinking past what is happening to you at the present moment and have the foresight to see anything beyond their own circumstances.

Obviously a line should be drawn as it should be with all taxes and everything else for that matter, but I think I made my point.

I want your crystal ball.

My crystal ball includes public records showing the history of property tax trends in my state so I can make an accurate assessment of the future plus giving myself additional breathing room just in case the trends get steeper. I apply that to the additional trends while being pessimistic about increases in my family's income over that same time.

Why do so many Americans choose not to do such research and analysis before making such a big decision like purchasing a home? It seems like the ones that don't get screwed. Obviously it revolves around responsibility.

OH PLEASE!!!!
Twenty years ago we purchased a double so my mother-in-law who was living on very little social security would have a place to live (with the side benefit that we could live next door and keep an eye on her). It is a modest home that was priced at $70,000, well under what we could afford (we did not want to be "house poor"). I too did my research and found that this to be a declining neighborhood. Indeed, since we purchased, HUD housing has been built within 300 feet and two Habitat for Humanity houses are right next door. The home is now valued at about $300,000, something we could not have anticipated in our wildest dreams.

BTW, we talked to an appraiser in an attempt to appeal this every 3 year escalation of value to the county. We were told by him that he would be glad to take our money, but that their would be a member of the school board at the hearing and he would simply veto all others who might rule in our favor.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Caminetto
Originally posted by: Xavier434
My crystal ball includes public records showing the history of property tax trends in my state so I can make an accurate assessment of the future plus giving myself additional breathing room just in case the trends get steeper. I apply that to the additional trends while being pessimistic about increases in my family's income over that same time.

Why do so many Americans choose not to do such research and analysis before making such a big decision like purchasing a home? It seems like the ones that don't get screwed. Obviously it revolves around responsibility.

OH PLEASE!!!!
Twenty years ago we purchased a double so my mother-in-law who was living on very little social security would have a place to live (with the side benefit that we could live next door and keep an eye on her). It is a modest home that was priced at $70,000, well under what we could afford (we did not want to be "house poor"). I too did my research and found that this to be a declining neighborhood. Indeed, since we purchased, HUD housing has been built within 300 feet and two Habitat for Humanity houses are right next door. The home is now valued at about $300,000, something we could not have anticipated in our wildest dreams.

BTW, we talked to an appraiser in an attempt to appeal this every 3 year escalation of value to the county. We were told by him that he would be glad to take our money, but that their would be a member of the school board at the hearing and he would simply veto all others who might rule in our favor.

What does that have to do with property taxes? I see your point but I think you are mixing apples and oranges to this discussion.

 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Xavier434
I plan to purchase a home while assuming that property taxes will go up. If you plan ahead like that and leave yourself some extra money in your budget for such things then you don't run into these kinds of problems because you basically are thinking past what is happening to you at the present moment and have the foresight to see anything beyond their own circumstances.

Obviously a line should be drawn as it should be with all taxes and everything else for that matter, but I think I made my point.

I want your crystal ball.

My crystal ball includes public records showing the history of property tax trends in my state so I can make an accurate assessment of the future plus giving myself additional breathing room just in case the trends get steeper. I apply that to the additional trends while being pessimistic about increases in my family's income over that same time.

Why do so many Americans choose not to do such research and analysis before making such a big decision like purchasing a home? It seems like the ones that don't get screwed. Obviously it revolves around responsibility.

Well I'll use a little absurd humor to make a point.

Hello, this is God posting. I see that you have your life all planned out. Unfortunately my ideas and yours don't quite mesh. You are now 45 years old, married and living well within your means. The economic times aren't so great right now. POOF! You've lost your job. Good thing you have savings. Oops. Your wife has breast cancer, and you lost her income. The kids tuition is also due. Another lifestyle change for them. Hey, know what? You survived! Oh, sorry. You've hit another snag. Those investments? They are gone. Well you always have Social Security to pay for those 2000 a month taxes, right? Wait, that exceeded your expectations?

Too bad you didn't plan adequately.


Yeah, the above happens. Don't think that you can "budget" your life. Hopefully you will be one of the majority who doesn't have a problem, but I'd bet that a great many who stand to lose or have lost their homes thought just like you.

I
 

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
26,185
4,844
126
All taxes have problems. Each are "unfair" in a different way. I'll briefly list the main forms of taxation. PC Surgeon, please comment on these.

1) Tax the users. Want to drive on streets paid for the government? Sure, but pay a gas tax or toll or similar tax each time you drive. This has the benefit of taxing those people who truely gain from the government project. Want to use government land and government cleaned toilets for a campground? Sure, just pay a small fee when you enter the park. It sounds good at first. But then how do you fairly tax things like national security? Or what if you don't drive but still you benefit from goods being shipped to your city on public roads, how is that taxed fairly? Even if you could tax every single event, imagine the massive headache and government payroll necessary to collect all of these taxes $1 at a time.

2) Tax the buyers. The common sales tax. It sounds good at first. But, you really have to delve into the details to see that sales tax has problems too. First of all, people like Warren Buffet spend about 1% of what they make. So, even with a 20% sales tax, Warren Buffet's tax rate would be 0.2%. And if Mr. Buffet chose to spend some of his money out of the country, that 0.2% rate would be even smaller. Poor people, on the other hand, who spend everything they earn would pay the full 20% rate. That just isn't feasible to shift so much of the tax burden from the wealthy to the poor. Yes, there are "fixes" such as massively increasing government welfare to the poor (the "fair tax" plan gives the poor massive monthly checks). Not only is that the biggest welfare plan ever conceived, but it also means the rich AND the poor pay little to no tax. That means that you and I, the middle class, must pay it ALL. Realistically it wouldn't be feasible with 20% sales tax - despite the "fair tax" claims. Think more like 50% or even higher if this plan harms the economy. Not to mention the massive black-market or barter-markets that easilly could be generated to circumvent the sales tax.

3) Tax the income. Income taxes have the benefit of being quite flexible (ie you can tax rich or poor any way you like) and relatively easy to double-check. The employeer and the employee both report the income, making it much more difficult to circumvent. Its flexibility however will always be disputed. Should the tax be higher or lower for the high income earners? What about the low income earners, higher or lower? I think you know the disputes. Plus, it taxes you on your way to being wealthy and not necessarilly the wealthy people themselves. Someone like Bill Gates could theoretically have no income and never be taxed, nor will his children or any of their offspring since they have enough money to live without any income. Or you could have a high income and be poor (say if you had massive debt or many kids, etc) yet you are taxed heavilly.

4) Tax the wealth. This has the benefit of going right to the source of the money. People who have money pay taxes. This is different than taxing income - it is taxing the people who really have stuff of value. It taxes the people who are least harmed by the tax and doesn't tax those who would be harmed most by the tax. A property tax is a wealth tax. If you have a million dollar home or priceless artwork or a fancy yacht or a massive trust then you are taxed on that wealth. This is taxing the Bill Gate's of the world, the Rochefellers, the Hilton sisters, etc. Honestly, I think this is one of the best forms of tax. If you have a lot of stuff, you pay a lot of taxes. If you have nothing, you pay no taxes. Your aren't harmed for success (such as with an income tax), you instead are taxed for excess. You can't easilly hide a 401k or a house from the IRS. Nor can you easilly create a black market for them. Nor will this tax harm spending like a sales tax would. Nor does it require a tax man at every step you take that might benefit you.

4b) Tax the wealth but only once the wealthy have died. Estate tax. This is a variation of #4. Enough said.

I think the fairest, least harmful tax, the easiest to verify, and the most difficult to hide illegally is the wealth tax (such as a property tax). The key is to keep the wealth tax rates appropriate. You don't want to heavilly tax someone who lives in a shack just because he owns a 50 sq ft piece of property.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: Xavier434


What does that have to do with property taxes? I see your point but I think you are mixing apples and oranges to this discussion.

I think what he's pointing at is the housing boom and the massive increased value of his home (which by the way, could NEVER have been predicted by records). The subsequent reason for unforeseen tax hikes is obvious.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
Originally posted by: Xavier434

My crystal ball includes public records showing the history of property tax trends in my state so I can make an accurate assessment of the future plus giving myself additional breathing room just in case the trends get steeper. I apply that to the additional trends while being pessimistic about increases in my family's income over that same time.

Why do so many Americans choose not to do such research and analysis before making such a big decision like purchasing a home? It seems like the ones that don't get screwed. Obviously it revolves around responsibility.

Well I'll use a little absurd humor to make a point.

Hello, this is God posting. I see that you have your life all planned out. Unfortunately my ideas and yours don't quite mesh. You are now 45 years old, married and living well within your means. The economic times aren't so great right now. POOF! You've lost your job. Good thing you have savings. Oops. Your wife has breast cancer, and you lost her income. The kids tuition is also due. Another lifestyle change for them. Hey, know what? You survived! Oh, sorry. You've hit another snag. Those investments? They are gone. Well you always have Social Security to pay for those 2000 a month taxes, right? Wait, that exceeded your expectations?

Too bad you didn't plan adequately.


Yeah, the above happens. Don't think that you can "budget" your life. Hopefully you will be one of the majority who doesn't have a problem, but I'd bet that a great many who stand to lose or have lost their homes thought just like you.

I


Yes, I understand that unexpected bad things happen in life that no one can plan for. I endure them as well. That's just how life works though and it will never change. My point is that we should take advantage of what we can and property tax trends is one where we can make a decent estimate.
 

Caminetto

Senior member
Jul 29, 2001
821
49
91
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Caminetto
Originally posted by: Xavier434
My crystal ball includes public records showing the history of property tax trends in my state so I can make an accurate assessment of the future plus giving myself additional breathing room just in case the trends get steeper. I apply that to the additional trends while being pessimistic about increases in my family's income over that same time.

Why do so many Americans choose not to do such research and analysis before making such a big decision like purchasing a home? It seems like the ones that don't get screwed. Obviously it revolves around responsibility.

OH PLEASE!!!!
Twenty years ago we purchased a double so my mother-in-law who was living on very little social security would have a place to live (with the side benefit that we could live next door and keep an eye on her). It is a modest home that was priced at $70,000, well under what we could afford (we did not want to be "house poor"). I too did my research and found that this to be a declining neighborhood. Indeed, since we purchased, HUD housing has been built within 300 feet and two Habitat for Humanity houses are right next door. The home is now valued at about $300,000, something we could not have anticipated in our wildest dreams.

BTW, we talked to an appraiser in an attempt to appeal this every 3 year escalation of value to the county. We were told by him that he would be glad to take our money, but that their would be a member of the school board at the hearing and he would simply veto all others who might rule in our favor.

What does that have to do with property taxes? I see your point but I think you are mixing apples and oranges to this discussion.

The discussion was about our older friends and neighbors who were forced to move out of their homes because of escalating property taxes. You were critical of them for not planning ahead and I related our own experience in this same neighborhood in which, despite planning ahead, we have seen property taxes go up over 427% in 20 years in a declining neighborhood and without recourse except to sell our most cherished possession.
 

KlokWyze

Diamond Member
Sep 7, 2006
4,451
9
81
www.dogsonacid.com
Shrug, I guess property taxes will just continue to rise since they have so many staunch supporters.

I am curious what other Western, South American & Eastern countries tax systems are like in comparison.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Caminetto
The discussion was about our older friends and neighbors who were forced to move out of their homes because of escalating property taxes. You were critical of them for not planning ahead and I related our own experience in this same neighborhood in which, despite planning ahead, we have seen property taxes go up over 427% in 20 years in a declining neighborhood and without recourse except to sell our most cherished possession.

Did your family get raises over the course of those 20 years?

Look, the bottom line is that this money funds your schools, your fire fighters, your police, your libraries, and tons of other things. We need that stuff.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Originally posted by: Caminetto
Originally posted by: Xavier434
Originally posted by: Caminetto
Originally posted by: Xavier434
My crystal ball includes public records showing the history of property tax trends in my state so I can make an accurate assessment of the future plus giving myself additional breathing room just in case the trends get steeper. I apply that to the additional trends while being pessimistic about increases in my family's income over that same time.

Why do so many Americans choose not to do such research and analysis before making such a big decision like purchasing a home? It seems like the ones that don't get screwed. Obviously it revolves around responsibility.

OH PLEASE!!!!
Twenty years ago we purchased a double so my mother-in-law who was living on very little social security would have a place to live (with the side benefit that we could live next door and keep an eye on her). It is a modest home that was priced at $70,000, well under what we could afford (we did not want to be "house poor"). I too did my research and found that this to be a declining neighborhood. Indeed, since we purchased, HUD housing has been built within 300 feet and two Habitat for Humanity houses are right next door. The home is now valued at about $300,000, something we could not have anticipated in our wildest dreams.

BTW, we talked to an appraiser in an attempt to appeal this every 3 year escalation of value to the county. We were told by him that he would be glad to take our money, but that their would be a member of the school board at the hearing and he would simply veto all others who might rule in our favor.

What does that have to do with property taxes? I see your point but I think you are mixing apples and oranges to this discussion.

The discussion was about our older friends and neighbors who were forced to move out of their homes because of escalating property taxes. You were critical of them for not planning ahead and I related our own experience in this same neighborhood in which, despite planning ahead, we have seen property taxes go up over 427% in 20 years in a declining neighborhood and without recourse except to sell our most cherished possession.

You and he both have points. If his is that one should be a good steward of one's resources, which in turn may mitigate unforseen events, then I agree. If it's to be critical of those who find themselves in dire straights as not having done so I can't buy it.

Conversely, you point out that planning won't always work, but you would almost certainly agree that one ought to make an effort to make an attempt to plan for the future. Hoping that one can make payments on a home that's clearly beyond one's means is foolish no matter how you look at it.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
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As a suggestion, upon retirement or before if circumstances warrant, property taxes should be means tested. Someone working all their lives and having paid for their home ought not to lose it.
 

NoStateofMind

Diamond Member
Oct 14, 2005
9,711
6
76
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
As a suggestion, upon retirement or before if circumstances warrant, property taxes should be means tested. Someone working all their lives and having paid for their home ought not to lose it.

I suggest that once someone retires (age 65?) the taxes they paid that year for their house will not change for the remainder of their life. Obviously they chose that house because they could afford it on a fixed income.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
As a suggestion, upon retirement or before if circumstances warrant, property taxes should be means tested. Someone working all their lives and having paid for their home ought not to lose it.

I suggest that once someone retires (age 65?) the taxes they paid that year for their house will not change for the remainder of their life. Obviously they chose that house because they could afford it on a fixed income.

I'd be ok with that if we find reasonable ways to replace the funding that would be lost as a result. It's one thing to just cut stuff that funds things like Home Land Security. It's different when we are talking schools, police, and fire fighters.
 

Caminetto

Senior member
Jul 29, 2001
821
49
91
I worked hard my whole life and I never once complained about income taxes and I don't complain today. Indeed many of my friends think it odd when I say that I don't object to income taxes since I make a good living and live in this wonderful country and don't mind paying for the privilege.
But property taxes and sales taxes to often tax those who can least afford to pay.

It seems to me that most posting here are young, have had the benefits of a great education, and can pay taxes no matter in what form. You believe the future is bright since you are smart enough to plan for it. And that is exactly what my neighbors who had to move related to me before they were forced out.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: Caminetto
I worked hard my whole life and I never once complained about income taxes and I don't complain today. Indeed many of my friends think it odd when I say that I don't object to income taxes since I make a good living and live in this wonderful country and don't mind paying for the privilege.
But property taxes and sales taxes to often tax those who can least afford to pay.

It seems to me that most posting here are young, have had the benefits of a great education, and can pay taxes no matter in what form. You believe the future is bright since you are smart enough to plan for it. And that is exactly what my neighbors who had to move related to me before they were forced out.

I don't completely disagree with you. I do understand where you are coming from here. However, I just don't know any other good way to fund what property taxes fund throughout our nation. You mentioned great education. Well, guess what pays for a lot of that?
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
You are in error if you assume property taxes should keep going up. I think it is all a sham. The government just says your property is worth more, and then they make you pay more. If you let the government get away with it, you get what you deserve. So if you live in California and your property has gone down in value you should demand that all the property tax be less now based on your legal rights.

Maybe you are just paying for all those undocumented slave laborers.
 

Xavier434

Lifer
Oct 14, 2002
10,373
1
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
You are in error if you assume property taxes should keep going up. I think it is all a sham. The government just says your property is worth more, and then they make you pay more. If you let the government get away with it, you get what you deserve. So if you live in California and your property has gone down in value you should demand that all the property tax be less now based on your legal rights.

Who in this thread is stating that it always should? Also, keep in mind that the way that governments tax property differs per state and changes to it are often voted upon by the people in constitutional amendments. See the recent Amendment 6 in FL which passed.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
You are in error if you assume property taxes should keep going up. I think it is all a sham. The government just says your property is worth more, and then they make you pay more. If you let the government get away with it, you get what you deserve. So if you live in California and your property has gone down in value you should demand that all the property tax be less now based on your legal rights.

Revaluations of tax values are based on 'comps' - comparable sales of similar properties that have occurred in the preceding period.

Since real estate values in some areas are declining so will their worth in the next property revaluation.
 

Dissipate

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2004
6,815
0
0
Originally posted by: Caminetto
I worked hard my whole life and I never once complained about income taxes and I don't complain today. Indeed many of my friends think it odd when I say that I don't object to income taxes since I make a good living and live in this wonderful country and don't mind paying for the privilege.

So slavery made you happy. Interesting.
 

Darwin333

Lifer
Dec 11, 2006
19,946
2,330
126
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Rainsford
I think you should be able to keep your house without paying property taxes...providing you can move your house and the land it's on to a neutral part of the ocean and live there. But even if you own your house outright, you still consume services provided by your city and state. Police, fire fighters, schools, etc, are not free.

And I think property taxes are among the best ways to pay for those things, since it taxes the people who live there and use those services. Property tax is generally more "local" than other taxes, which means it's more likely to be used on things that actually benefit you and less likely to be squandered by idiots in Alaska electing corrupt and wasteful Senators (to cite just one example).

Originally posted by: Brainonska511
The good thing about property taxes is that they are used to fund local services (fire department, schools, garbage pickup, local police, etc).

Granted, but those taxes do not have to come from things you *own*. They could just as well be funded by sales tax, income tax, state tax etc. But what I get from you guys, and is most disturbing, is that you agree that no one really owns their house and we are better for it. Your points are understandable and well intentioned, but I know there are other ways to accrue the revenue needed to secure such services such as fire department etc.

Using the same logic, the government owns you or at least the work you do. Don't pay the taxes on your house and you could lose your house. Don't pay the taxes on your income and you can lose your freedom.
 

NoShangriLa

Golden Member
Sep 3, 2006
1,652
0
0

IMHO, property & state/provincial taxes should be paid, however the system need to be restructured to minimize & reduce redundancy.

I believe federal income tax is way out of control, because it encourage the government to create jobs for friends & themselves. It also allows the government overly large budget so that it can develop unneeded arms to invade its neighbors.

 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
I have mixed feelings about property taxes. I agree that once you buy something, it should be yours. But at the same time, land is finite, and the population grows, therefore appreciating the value of the property. A tax prevents the uber-wealthy from simply buying up property and sitting on it indefinitely. Anything that keeps money flowing is a good thing.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
As a suggestion, upon retirement or before if circumstances warrant, property taxes should be means tested. Someone working all their lives and having paid for their home ought not to lose it.

I suggest that once someone retires (age 65?) the taxes they paid that year for their house will not change for the remainder of their life. Obviously they chose that house because they could afford it on a fixed income.

Just do what they do in central NJ: Leave the area as soon as your kids graduate high school.

No reason to pay these $15k+ property taxes on $600-800k homes (about 3000 square feet, larger than average but not a mansion) when you dont have kids in the district. A few years before I take off, myself.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
2,847
0
0
Originally posted by: TheSlamma
Kiss your police, schools, libraries, and firefighters away if you dump property taxes.

The way many public schools blow money, that's not such a terrible thing.
 

SleepWalkerX

Platinum Member
Jun 29, 2004
2,649
0
0
Originally posted by: bamacre
Originally posted by: Dissipate
Originally posted by: bamacre
I think that is a valid argument, but perhaps if the local governments had more power, they'd get more attention. How many people in the US only vote every 4 years and only because its a presidential election? How many people know who the president is, but aren't sure who their state's governor is? My guess is, way too many.

Actually, the local governments should be dismantled first. It is on the local level that people should learn how to live without government.

I just plain do not understand anarchism. It can't really exist. If it did, it would only exist long enough for gangs, mobs, some kind of rogue group to try and suck up power. Because really, this is basically what government is anyway.

Government only exists through the consent of the governed. The same can be said of gangs, mobs, and rogue groups vying for power. The only reason gangs don't control your city is because your city doesn't recognize their authority.