Property Taxes: Are they *needed*?

[Corbett]

I hate taxes as much as the next guy but I think at least SOME of the property taxes I pay are needed. Of course, I would love to have that extra $350 a month in my pocket!

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: KlokWyze
Man.. I have to agree with the OP, though a lot of you put forth reasonable explanations. Why can't these services just be paid for by sales, gasoline, alcohol, tobacco, etc.

I mean why should it cost something to "own" something, that's just so blatantly contradictory that maybe it had to be justified by being used to pay for local stuff that is necessary. I don't see any reason why these things can't be paid for by sales taxes.

Read this again:

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Also, regarding taxes being more centralized than local. I'm not sure about your state, but every other municipality seems to have some major project going on, such as rebuilding a larger/newer school or something. When those projects are pushed, people are told "don't worry, our city only has to cover 6-8% of the total cost. The state is going to pick up the rest of the cost." And, people either don't realize that they're still paying for it, since the state's money comes from somewhere, else they realize that hey, everyone else is doing it, so they should get their share too. But, there have been a hell of a lot more projects approved than would ever have been approved if it were only up to the local communities to pay for it. "No way, I'm not paying for that project. Huh? Well, sure, if someone else is paying for it, let's build it."

Tell you what though, if my local services were provided by the state, rather than locally, my community would insist on all of those same services that the majority of other people in the state are receiving. Street cleaners go down your street? They never go down my road. I want them now, and you get to help pay for them. Garbage collection? Hell yeah! I hate driving to the landfill every couple of weeks to get rid of my non-burnable garbage (plastic). The 3 foot high, 200 foot long pile of leaves that I raked to the edge of the road over the course of several days before spending another 4 hours & breaking a rake just loading them into a trailer (many loads) and dumping them on our side road - Hey, you guys need to pay a little more in income tax or sales tax, because I want the town to pick those leaves up for me from the edge of the road.

In short, you are going to help subsidize every community that suddenly decides that they want their cake too. Those communities have worked hard to keep their own property taxes down, but now that we're all paying the same sales tax, or income taxes, why the hell shouldn't we get identical services.

Hopefully, this helps you realize that local spending would end up spiraling out of control.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Then who determines local laws, local services, etc and manages local tax revenue and it's distribution?

That's the point, society learns on a local level that it doesn't need government. Then it is discovered that state government is useless and then the federal government. A nice little chain reaction.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: bamacre
I think that is a valid argument, but perhaps if the local governments had more power, they'd get more attention. How many people in the US only vote every 4 years and only because its a presidential election? How many people know who the president is, but aren't sure who their state's governor is? My guess is, way too many.

Actually, the local governments should be dismantled first. It is on the local level that people should learn how to live without government.

I just plain do not understand anarchism. It can't really exist. If it did, it would only exist long enough for gangs, mobs, some kind of rogue group to try and suck up power. Because really, this is basically what government is anyway.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
That's the point, society learns on a local level that it doesn't need government.

Unless those people work together, plan together, and are committed, then they have very little power. But if they do, they haven't rid themselves of government, they have created their own.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
Then who determines local laws, local services, etc and manages local tax revenue and it's distribution?

That's the point, society learns on a local level that it doesn't need government. Then it is discovered that state government is useless and then the federal government. A nice little chain reaction.

Are you a home owner? So, if there were no zoning laws, you wouldn't have a problem with someone building a strip joint next door?

You don't care if you have to worry about food safety when you eat at a restaurant b/c there is no sanitation laws and no local food inspections performed?

I could go on but I'm probably just wasting my time. You believe whoever has the biggest gun or the most money. Survival of the fittest.

You'd prefer a 3rd world country?

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
You believe whoever has the biggest gun or the most money. Survival of the fittest.

You'd prefer a 3rd world country?

Yes, basically. And it would only be short period of time before small, then large, groups of people started working together to achieve common goals more efficiently. And there you have government.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman
You believe whoever has the biggest gun or the most money. Survival of the fittest.

You'd prefer a 3rd world country?

Yes, basically. And it would only be short period of time before small, then large, groups of people started working together to achieve common goals more efficiently. And there you have government.

:thumbsup:

 

[alphatarget1]

Well, you don't really "own" your house. If you really "owned" that piece of land you can declare independence from the US, no? I'm not sure how the law works.

 

[herm0016]

I think local government is the only good government, they can govern, provide services directly to the people that support them. I belive all taxes should be direct, like gas taxes pay for road maintenance, property taxes pay for things like plowing, sidewalks, street lamps, zoning and development laws, parks, bike trails, schools in the area etc. sales tax should pay for consumer protection laws, health department, other more general services.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Yes, basically. And it would only be short period of time before small, then large, groups of people started working together to achieve common goals more efficiently. And there you have government.

What common goals is the federal government doing for you efficiently?

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: bamacre
I just plain do not understand minarchism. It can't really exist. If it did, it would only exist long enough for gangs, mobs, some kind of rogue group to try and suck up power. Because really, this is basically what government is anyway.

Fixed.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Folks have given a pretty good outline of services received for property taxes: public safety (police, fire, court system, building inspections), public health (restaurant inspections, EMS, hospitals, sanitation, landfills), public education (schools, libraries), public infrastructure (roads, stormwater control, courts, jails, city halls), management (planning and zoning, administration, elected officials, finance) and public recreation (parks, playgrounds, greenways, rec enters, ball fields, sports leagues).

The only local gov't service that I have seen effectively 'privatized' is garbage collection - primarily in smaller communities.

Water and wastewater treatment, distribution and collection systems and infrastructure (water towers, pumping stations) is primarily funded through fees. Some folks have tried privatizing here but the fees inherently become greater than those from operation by the public sector.

Because of the highly technical nature of the newer wastewater treatment plants, some communities now 'contract out' for licensed operation and testing from the private sector - this primarily also in smaller communities.

Where I live we pay both city and county property taxes. I'll take a guess that the p-taxes represent 30-40% of their overall budgets, maybe more. I'd like to see a bit of the 'bloat' eliminated but understand that the state and federal gov'ts mandate certain functions to their local gov't 'brethren' and don't really pay for those 'mandates' - I think that adds to a large portion of that 'bloat' so I try not to complain about it too much.

So the question to me becomes, "What local gov't services will be eliminated if you cut overall revenues 25-35%?"

You can try to 'dink' around the edges but the end result is that you will have to slash some critical services.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Folks have given a pretty good outline of services received for property taxes: public safety (police, fire, court system, building inspections), public health (restaurant inspections, EMS, hospitals, sanitation, landfills), public education (schools, libraries), public infrastructure (roads, stormwater control, courts, jails, city halls), management (planning and zoning, administration, elected officials, finance) and public recreation (parks, playgrounds, greenways, rec enters, ball fields, sports leagues).

The only local gov't service that I have seen effectively 'privatized' is garbage collection - primarily in smaller communities.

Water and wastewater treatment, distribution and collection systems and infrastructure (water towers, pumping stations) is primarily funded through fees. Some folks have tried privatizing here but the fees inherently become greater than those from operation by the public sector.

Because of the highly technical nature of the newer wastewater treatment plants, some communities now 'contract out' for licensed operation and testing from the private sector - this primarily also in smaller communities.

Where I live we pay both city and county property taxes. I'll take a guess that the p-taxes represent 30-40% of their overall budgets, maybe more. I'd like to see a bit of the 'bloat' eliminated but understand that the state and federal gov'ts mandate certain functions to their local gov't 'brethren' and don't really pay for those 'mandates' - I think that adds to a large portion of that 'bloat' so I try not to complain about it too much.

So the question to me becomes, "What local gov't services will be eliminated if you cut overall revenues 25-35%?"

You can try to 'dink' around the edges but the end result is that you will have to slash some critical services.

NY has horrific taxes to begin with and property taxes aren't an exception. Our problem is Medicaid. Working in the health field, I see how awful the system is, and we pay through the nose for the Maybach of insurance plans. It would be easy to cut spending there, but it's officially off the table. We don't want to offend the voter base. So we stuck with it. OK, that's how it is, but it burns me that people who have their own homes and have worked hard for them can lose them for non payment of taxes if they have trouble making the $600 a month or more on a 150k home so others can loaf around.

My idea which won't fly because it offends people is make them work for their money and insurance. Unless you are crippled, have them clean the streets, fix the potholes, take the trash and provide the other services we don't have because we're paying 18 year olds to have more babies. There is a LOT of that in Rochester. Have babies and avoid work, and get paid for it. That's just wrong.

 

[ccbadd]

A local property tax allows for the direct distribution of those taxes to fund local services for you and your property.

If I'm from out of state, why should I have to pay a higher sales/income tax so that you can have all of your local services (fire/police/water/sewer/schools/hospitals/etc)?[/quote]

Wouldn't you be using those services while you were visiting??

I think the problem is all the different taxes. Does anyone really know how much we pay annually in taxes?? Moving to a simple tax plan involving ONLY a consumption based tax, sales tax, would allow true property ownership and place the tax burden on the greatest consumers. It would make avoiding taxes much more difficult also.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: ccbadd
A local property tax allows for the direct distribution of those taxes to fund local services for you and your property.

If I'm from out of state, why should I have to pay a higher sales/income tax so that you can have all of your local services (fire/police/water/sewer/schools/hospitals/etc)?

Wouldn't you be using those services while you were visiting??

I think the problem is all the different taxes. Does anyone really know how much we pay annually in taxes?? Moving to a simple tax plan involving ONLY a consumption based tax, sales tax, would allow true property ownership and place the tax burden on the greatest consumers. It would make avoiding taxes much more difficult also.

[/quote]

So how does this work?

You have two families of four. One makes a million a year. The other 40K. The first has loads and loads of disposable income. The second does not. How would you craft your plan so that the second family isn't taxed out of their home? One caveat, you aren't going to be able to cut spending. We've seen in these forums that it's a great idea. I cut what another wants and we keep what I want. Nice, but that person wants to cut what I want, and keep his programs. Thus, nothing is done.

What's your plan?

Edit- Ok, that quotes all screwed up

 

[Capt Caveman]

A local property tax allows for the direct distribution of those taxes to fund local services for you and your property.

If I'm from out of state, why should I have to pay a higher sales/income tax so that you can have all of your local services (fire/police/water/sewer/schools/hospitals/etc)?

Originally posted by: ccbadd
Wouldn't you be using those services while you were visiting??

I think the problem is all the different taxes. Does anyone really know how much we pay annually in taxes?? Moving to a simple tax plan involving ONLY a consumption based tax, sales tax, would allow true property ownership and place the tax burden on the greatest consumers. It would make avoiding taxes much more difficult also.

No

You have it reverse. And you're placing the tax on people that aren't using a towns/cities local services.

Why should me paying sales tax in one town be allowed to be used to build another town's school system? Who is going to be responsible for dividing the money received by a sales tax to all of towns/cities? Keeping it local via a property tax resolves that issue. And why towns/cities/states have eliminated income/sales taxes instead of property taxes.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: ccbadd
A local property tax allows for the direct distribution of those taxes to fund local services for you and your property.

If I'm from out of state, why should I have to pay a higher sales/income tax so that you can have all of your local services (fire/police/water/sewer/schools/hospitals/etc)?

That's effectively what Palin did as Mayor. Her town was a 'retail hub' in Mat-Su borough (which is the size of West Va). They raised the sales tax rate and cut property taxes for the locals.

 

[Xavier434]

Property taxes are a tremendous amount of income that pays for very important services. FL in particular relies on them heavily for public education, fire fighters, and the police force which we obviously need.

 

[Caminetto]

Property taxes are not a taxes but fees for ownership and grossly unfair, especially to those living on fixed incomes.

I for one am sick of seeing so many of my older friends in this community having to sell the home they love and move away from their friends because they cannot afford to pay the property taxes anymore. Some of them have had to move into far less desirable communities and far from the home where they have raised their family and spent their sweat and tears into making it a place where they could enjoy their final years.

I can only hope all you self absorbed brats, who can't think past what is happening to you at the present moment and haven't the foresight to see anything beyond your own circumstances, get the rug pulled out from under you when you get old

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Caminetto
Property taxes are not a taxes but fees for ownership and grossly unfair, especially to those living on fixed incomes.

I for one am sick of seeing so many of my older friends in this community having to sell the home they love and move away from their friends because they cannot afford to pay the property taxes anymore. Some of them have had to move into far less desirable communities and far from the home where they have raised their family and spent their sweat and tears into making it a place where they could enjoy their final years.

I can only hope all you self absorbed brats, who can't think past what is happening to you at the present moment and haven't the foresight to see anything beyond your own circumstances, get the rug pulled out from under you when you get old

I plan to purchase a home while assuming that property taxes will go up. If you plan ahead like that and leave yourself some extra money in your budget for such things then you don't run into these kinds of problems because you basically are thinking past what is happening to you at the present moment and have the foresight to see anything beyond their own circumstances.

Obviously a line should be drawn as it should be with all taxes and everything else for that matter, but I think I made my point.

 

[TheSlamma]

Kiss your police, schools, libraries, and firefighters away if you dump property taxes.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Xavier434

Originally posted by: Caminetto
Property taxes are not a taxes but fees for ownership and grossly unfair, especially to those living on fixed incomes.

I for one am sick of seeing so many of my older friends in this community having to sell the home they love and move away from their friends because they cannot afford to pay the property taxes anymore. Some of them have had to move into far less desirable communities and far from the home where they have raised their family and spent their sweat and tears into making it a place where they could enjoy their final years.

I can only hope all you self absorbed brats, who can't think past what is happening to you at the present moment and haven't the foresight to see anything beyond your own circumstances, get the rug pulled out from under you when you get old

I plan to purchase a home while assuming that property taxes will go up. If you plan ahead like that and leave yourself some extra money in your budget for such things then you don't run into these kinds of problems because you basically are thinking past what is happening to you at the present moment and have the foresight to see anything beyond their own circumstances.

Obviously a line should be drawn as it should be with all taxes and everything else for that matter, but I think I made my point.

I want your crystal ball.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Some states provide discounts or rebates on property taxes for folks over the age of 65.

No doubt it's a problem for folks on a fixed income but alternatives are limited and most likely less attractive. You could 'freeze' the levy and reverse 'escrow' what is owed with the amount coming due when the estate is settled.

The issue with that is the ultimate amount could end up being a huge chunk of change when settled - especially if the old folks live to be 85-90 or older. Over 20 years the property will most likely escalate in value 2-3x (as will the 'escrowed' tax levy).

As a former tax collector (yeah, I know - Boo! Hiss!) we pretty much gave the old folks a break if they got behind on their taxes (up to as long as ten years - which is as far back as we could collect). As long as they kept paying those 9-10 year old taxes we wouldn't foreclose. The issue with that is the interest would be as much as the taxes (if not more) so we always encouraged folks to keep up to avoid paying the interest.

We tried to use what are called 'homestead exemptions' to reduce property taxes 10-20% and use zoning 'sleight of hand' to keep values low. We'd try to keep zoning at the lowest residential level even though the home may be surrounded by some high dollar real estate with much greater values.

The primary issue was you had to be consistent throughout the jurisdiction in your policy - which made it tough sometimes.

PS - I never had to foreclose on anyone.

I did, however, have to initiate condemnation proceedings on some folks for utility easments - LOL

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Xavier434
I plan to purchase a home while assuming that property taxes will go up. If you plan ahead like that and leave yourself some extra money in your budget for such things then you don't run into these kinds of problems because you basically are thinking past what is happening to you at the present moment and have the foresight to see anything beyond their own circumstances.

Obviously a line should be drawn as it should be with all taxes and everything else for that matter, but I think I made my point.

I want your crystal ball.

My crystal ball includes public records showing the history of property tax trends in my state so I can make an accurate assessment of the future plus giving myself additional breathing room just in case the trends get steeper. I apply that to the additional trends while being pessimistic about increases in my family's income over that same time.

Why do so many Americans choose not to do such research and analysis before making such a big decision like purchasing a home? It seems like the ones that don't get screwed. Obviously it revolves around responsibility.