umbrella39
Lifer
- Jun 11, 2004
- 13,816
- 1,126
- 126
That would require your surfacing from your parents basement Zed. Fat chance of that ever happening. :roll:
That would require your surfacing from your parents basement Zed. Fat chance of that ever happening. :roll:
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2007
- 9,262
- 3
- 76
Even if I did support outright torture, it is a long way down on the evil scale from our enemies. I realize that in life some very ugly things happen, and from personal experiance I know that the guy with boots on the ground has a much clearer picture of what is going on, and what needs to be done than those on the other end of the radio. It's easy to sit on the internet with your 20/20 hindsight, crying, and picking apart the actions of the people on the ground do the ugly things that need to be done.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
Originally posted by: Harvey
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Harvey
Guess you haven't been paying attention. Attorney General Holder has not announced whether he will pursue charges against senior Bushwhackos, and there are continuing calls from Congress for it to happen.
Why do you love murderers, traitors, torturers and war criminals and hate the Unitied States of America and our Constitution and laws?
And by the way since we're asking persoinal questions...have you stopped raping little boys?
I'll answer your question after you answer mine, and only if you can post any evidence that I've committed such a crime. I expect links proving the acts of which you accuse me and statutory citations and qualified legal opinions to support your accusation.
Tell us why you defend the crimes committed by your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals.
You know I can document their crimes qualified to the same standard as I'm demanding of you to prove the crime you allege I committed. I'll be glad to repost my proof if you really insist. Go ahead. Show us you're more than a lying scumbag Bushwhacko sycophant (it means ass licker). We'll be waiting.
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But it sure tells us a lot about you when you're willing to sink to becoming the evil you claim you want to defeat. :thumbsdown: :|
Here. Again. For the reading impaired:
Same position Ive held for 6 years.
edit: and BTW...my loaded question was rhetorical. Like yours.
"A long way down on the evil scale" doesn't make it any less evil. I'll repeat, continued exposure to high sound pressure levels can cause permanent physical and psychological damage to human beings. DO NOT challenge me on this. I work in professional audio, and I've known many musicians who have learned about that physical harm the hard way, but they did it to themselves.
So, who the bloody fuck do you think you are to declare how much permanent damage should be done to other human beings in the name of defending the values instilled in our Constitution and our laws that prohibit torture? :|
For that matter, who the bloody fuck did the Bushwhackos think they were to do that to other human beings? Even worse, who the bloody fuck did they think they were to do it in our name and to dishonor and disgrace the name and the integrity of the United States of America to our own people and the world? :thumbsdown: :|
Then, why do you keep defending the Bushwhackos and protesting against bringing the truth to light in a court of law?
But, surrounding the "torture" allegations, given the few we subjected and who they were, I dont have a problem with it.[/quote]
The "FEW?" How do you know it was a "few?" The Bushwhackos lied to us about everything. They lied about committing acts of torture until they were caught flat footed with pics and informtaion leaks proving they did. Exactly what evidence do you have to support your allegation that there were only a "few" victims of their torture? ONE such victim is one too many.
We agree. :thumbsup:
BTW -- Mine wasn't.
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2007
- 9,262
- 3
- 76
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
ohh and where do you live big man? I could see you wanting to torture to keep safe if you are nestled between 3rd and 4th ave or live off of Beverly or live on 4th st NE but I bet you don't
Are you to stupid to click the Profile button?
JSt0rm
Lifer
- Sep 5, 2000
- 27,399
- 3,948
- 126
Originally posted by: xj0hnx
Originally posted by: JSt0rm01
ohh and where do you live big man? I could see you wanting to torture to keep safe if you are nestled between 3rd and 4th ave or live off of Beverly or live on 4th st NE but I bet you don't
Are you to stupid to click the Profile button?
lol texas. Makes sense. simple.
Are you too stupid to understand that torture is a violation of U.S. and international laws, or are you just a sub-human POS who doesn't give a shit about ethics or morals, let alone the law?
xj0hnx
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2007
- 9,262
- 3
- 76
Get over yourself. Your "DO NOT challenge" doesn't impress me...even a little. And why are you repeating yourself, I've already addressed that, are you slow?
Probably a complete lack of human decency and being pretty devoid of emotion towards anyone that would do me, my family, and my country harm.
Bush should have stayed his ass out of Iraq. I remember sitting in Kosovo watching TV, wondering wtf I was watching Geraldo in Iraq on the news. Just for the record, I do not support Bushs invasion of Iraq, never did, even when I was there, always felt is was a sidetrack from what we should have been doing, problem is, he did, and now we are stuck with it. If you weren't such an asshole about it, you'd probably find that we agree on quite a few things, "Patriot" Act, "War on Terror"?, FISA expansion, etc... the difference I would guess is that I have seen the ugly things, and the results of them, and not doing them. Yea, that day in Iraq I'm sure we could have just let the tip go, and the few innocent farmers picked up would have had a much better day, but from the amount of IED materials we det'ed there would have been a lot more coffins to fill, so while it disturbed me, it's something that had to happen.
If we stoop to the terrorist's standards then we aren't Americans any longer and that makes me very sad.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
- Feb 8, 2001
- 4,822
- 0
- 0
I think there are always going to be exceptions in war, but I believe that American conduct in combat arenas has been about the best the modern world, much less more ancient times, has seen.
I applaud everyone who has a highly developed sense of morality, I really do. But I also know that war breaks down moral codes and it doesn't take more than one or two IEDs or snipers killing your buddies to make you fairly callous about inflicting hurt in turn.
The U.S. does not have a systemic policy of inflicting "torture" levels of interrogation. In fact, the rules are very strict and everyone knows that if you stray you are going to have a lot of people looking at you very, very closely. The professional interrogators are a breed above the ordinary soldier and they have a lot of legal briefings in addition to the techniques training.
One thing that really bothers me in these discussions is the absolutely misplaced sense of outrage by many posters.
As xj0hnx states, the worst we have done, very much on an exceptional not any systemic basis, is absolutely mild compared to the actions of our enemies. Theirs is systemic torture of the worst kind, ours is some kind of mild irritant.
Before you anti-torture posters start laying on about waterboarding, forced posture and humiliation techniques, let me make the assumption that you have not gone through any of the American advanced combat training schools. If you are a graduate of the Army Ranger, BUDS (Navy SEALS) or Air Force Combat Controllers/Pararescue SERE schools you have almost certainly been subjected to most, if not all, of the above.
For example, the Army Ranger School conducts its leadership training through physically arduous, miserable, dangerous, and painful patrolling exercises under conditions of extreme food, sleep and, used to be, water deprivation. Let me assure you that many graduates have had the dubious pleasure of being waterboarded, and all have been frozen, baked and shaked. And then kept going back for more.
Of course, these are all volunteers. And they know deep down that the instructors are not allowed to kill them. But accidents do happen, like in 1977 and 1995 and a lot of other years. The training demands brutal physical and mental endurance and Rangers go through such an ordeal though it might be far worse than they expected.
I condemn the use of torture, but I think it is some kind of sick joke to equate psychological stress techniques employed under strict legal, medical and psychiatric oversight to cutting off someone's head, raping then disemboweling someone's daughter or son in front of a parent's eyes, cutting or violently pulling off parts of a person's body, the list of real torture techniques is a varied as the imagination of the bastards that do it and are encouraged by their leaders to do so systematically as a matter of course.
Sometimes you might encounter sadists under American arms, but they are not good fits in the volunteer military and are actively screened out. The enemy often screens them in and then encourages them to act out their fantasies. And that is the real difference which too many of you studiously ignore.
Well all war is a crime. I don't understand the logic personally about "war crimes." IMO in war anything goes. Losing is not an option. I'm pretty jaded by how "politically correct" people are trying to turn war into being.
yeah I know all about it, what's your point? war is criminal, PERIOD. i fail to see how anyone could understand that. war should not have rules. the fact that anyone can justify anything done in a war as a war crime or just straight war is retarded. war is a crime, it should be dirty and ugly.
Pulsar
Diamond Member
- Mar 3, 2003
- 5,224
- 306
- 126
I tend to agree with most of what you said. I'll add this: while I'm against our soldiers sinking to any level to try to extract information, I will never condemn them for what they've done under orders. Likewise, I think that the current farce of pointing to GWB and his cabinet members as criminals for what went on is ridiculous. It happened. It's over. If we disagree with what went on, then we should look to changing policy to make it crystal clear that it's unacceptable from here on.
I refuse to second guess what our armed forces have done. I owe to much to them to do that. I WILL, however, go forward suggesting that policy be updated and clarified to remove the ambiguities that might be seen as tacit approval of using... methods... to extract information.
In the United States, we even make sure that we execute convicted murders painlessly. I think that level of respect for the incarcerated needs to extended to our foreign policy. Trial to prove guilt, then sentencing. After all - those terrorists we capture believe they are doing the right thing, no matter how twisted and insane it looks to us.
And that's the problem You don't see the evil inherent in your flawed logic. The moral of Aesop's fable, "The Wolf and the Lamb" states:
We are a nation of human beings, and history tells us that, at our worst we have stooped to their level. It also tells us that, at our best, we have been among those who would lead the world away from such inhumanity. Our only hope for the survival of the values we claim to support lies in remembering that we have failed our own better selves and working continuously to avoid repeating those failures.
The Bushwhackos join history's rogues gallery of torturers that includes Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot. Sadly, the sub-human turds who would excuse, condone or ignore their heinous crimes are still among us.
PJABBER
Diamond Member
- Feb 8, 2001
- 4,822
- 0
- 0
Originally posted by: Harvey
We are a nation of human beings, and history tells us that, at our worst we have stooped to their level. It also tells us that, at our best, we have been among those who would lead the world away from such inhumanity. Our only hope for the survival of the values we claim to support lies in remembering that we have failed our own better selves and working continuously to avoid repeating those failures.
The Bushwhackos join history's rogues gallery of torturers that includes Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot. Sadly, the sub-human turds who would excuse, condone or ignore their heinous crimes are still among us.
While I agree with your first paragraph to the extent that America actually has been a beacon for freedom, you are quite wrong in your conclusions.
You interminably post attacks against the Bush Administration and claim they ran a torture state. But you provide nothing to substantiate either your claims of systemic torture nor show the activities which would even approximate the genocide of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot.
Where are the death camps? Where are the mass graves, where are the gulags? Do you know how hard it is to hide millions of tortured and dead?
Or are you claiming that America is as willingly blind as the Germans were on their road to achieving their Final Solution?
Your hyperbole means you have jumped the shark.
Originally posted by: PJABBER
Originally posted by: Harvey
We are a nation of human beings, and history tells us that, at our worst we have stooped to their level. It also tells us that, at our best, we have been among those who would lead the world away from such inhumanity. Our only hope for the survival of the values we claim to support lies in remembering that we have failed our own better selves and working continuously to avoid repeating those failures.
The Bushwhackos join history's rogues gallery of torturers that includes Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Pol Pot. Sadly, the sub-human turds who would excuse, condone or ignore their heinous crimes are still among us.
While I agree with your first paragraph to the extent that America actually has been a beacon for freedom, you are quite wrong in your conclusions.
You interminably post attacks against the Bush Administration and claim they ran a torture state. But you provide nothing to substantiate either your claims of systemic torture nor show the activities which would even approximate the genocide of Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot.
Where are the death camps? Where are the mass graves, where are the gulags? Do you know how hard it is to hide millions of tortured and dead?
Your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals systematically authorized, ordered and implimented the use of torture, and they tried to create the fiction of legality for their crimes through patently false, contrived legal "opinions" by their criminal lackies by Alberto Gonzales, John Yoo and others.
They knew at the time that what they authorized and ordered was torture. In 2002, Donald Rumsfeld's attorney, William Haynes, requested info from S.E.R.E., the U.S. Airforce's Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape program regarding administration's intended use of "enhanced interrogation" techniques.
Per their name, the purpose of S.E.R.E. is to train our troops who may be captured to survive possible torture by, and to resist giving any helpful information to, our enemies. Their mission is specifically NOT to describe or define methods to be used by our own intelligence agencies to interrogate possible enemies captured by U.S. forces.
S.E.R.E is the specific military group tasked to understand and teach our troops to resist torture.
S.E.R.E is NOT tasked to develop means and methods of torturing those we capture.
S.E.R.E's report to Haynes explicitly:
- labels "enhanced interrogation" techniques TORTURE.
- says "enhanced interrogation" techniques DO NOT WORK.
- says "enhanced interrogation" techniques could have "potential impact on the safety of U.S. personnel captured by current and future adversaries."
Key sentences and phrases:
- The question that should immediately come to mind is whether the application of physical and/or psychological duress will enhance the interrogator's ability to achieve this objective.
- The error inherent in this line of thinking is the assumption that, through torture, the interrogator can extract reliable and accurate intelligence. History and a consideration of human behavior would appear to refute this assumption.
- The application of physical and or psychological duress will likely result in physical compliance. Additionally, prisoners may answer and/or comply as a result of threats of torture. However, the reliability and accuracy information must be questioned.
- Once any means of duress has been purposefully applied to the prisoner, the formerly cooperative relationship can not be reestablished. In addition, the prisoner's level of resolve to resist cooperating with the interrogator will likely be increased as a result of harsh or brutal treatment.
- For skilled interrogators, the observation of subtle nonverbal behaviors provides an invaluable assessment of the prisoner's psychological and emotional state. This offers important insights into how the prisoner can be most effectively leveraged into compliance. Further, it often enables the interrogator to form a reasonably accurate assessment of the prisoner's veracity in answering pertinent questions. The prisoner's physical response to the pain inflicted by an interrogator would obliterate such nuance and deprive the interrogator of these key tools.
- ... a subject in extreme pain may provide an answer, any answer, or many answers in order to get the pain to stop.
- The unintended consequence of a U.S. policy that provides for the torture of prisoners is that it could be used by our adversaries as justification for the torture of captured U.S. personnel.
Some were, including some in the CIA, the NSA and Congress who knew about it and either endorsed their actions or remained silent. Then, there hate spewing media whores like Bill Krystol, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly and all of Rupert Murdoch's Faux machine who were and are willing to spread their lies to idiot sheep like you. That's how it happened in nazi Germany and other totalitarian states.
The scale the Bushwhackos' crimes is irrelevant. One such act is enough to establish their guilt, after which, it's just step and repeat, and they committed far more than one such crime. We're just lucky your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal of traitors, murderers, torturers and war criminals didn't get as far as Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot. It wasn't for any lack of effort on their part.
Fsck you and the shark you rode in on. Your continuous lies and denials mean you are one of the sub-human pieces of shit who supports the Bushwhackos horrendous crimes. It doesn't really matter whether that is through intent, willing blindness or blatant stupidity. :thumbsdown: :|
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