Progressives Without Progress

[Anarchist420]

i will admit that i do not have a liberal mind like jefferson did and that is part of why i want a safe way to commit suicide painlessly. Craig has a conservative soul, DMcOwen does, Phokus does, Jhhnn does, Hillary Clinton does, Jimmy Carter does, I do, the list goes on. Incorruptible, on the other hand, is actually naturally free-spirited... he doesnt like islamists because the islamists are the Conservatives, the ones dependent on people to control.

basically, the natural (i.e., no arbitrary use of violence) condition of most of the world pop is property because slaves cant adapt and they need structure... only some people are born free.

 

[Atreus21]

A thought provoking article.
http://sultanknish.blogspot.com/2014/01/progressives-without-progress.html

Sound familiar? Scarcity and redistribution. The cornerstones of current progressive thought. Except it's always been at the heart of their movement which is actually based in extreme conservatism. I would have loved to quote the whole article but attention spans are short.

I've always had similar impressions. Progressivism is often actually regressive to the effect that it stunts growth and corrupts culture. Good read.

 

[bshole]

Well lets look at the most well known fascist group:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism#Anti-capitalism

Now does that sound like what a lefty or what a righty would say?



Okay, you got me. Fascists believe in valuing people according to them taking responsibility. That really does seem like a right-wing ideology after all

Well I never had a problem with Hitler's economic policies. He had some truly innovative ideas (like the autobahn). It was his kill the Jews and invade your neighbor's policies that I wasn't a fan of....

 

[nehalem256]

Well I never had a problem with Hitler's economic policies. He had some truly innovative ideas (like the autobahn). It was his kill the Jews and invade your neighbor's policies that I wasn't a fan of....

So would that be you agreeing with me on Hitler being left-wing?

 

[piasabird]

Everyone has a different definition of progress.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Everyone has a different definition of progress.

This is true in an absolute sense, however I think some common understanding about certain issues can be reached. For example do not most believe we ought to have the opportunity to achieve a better circumstance? I think that's something the vast majority believe, but from there we start to diverge. Is one owed a better life in all cases? What part does society and the individual play? What are the limits on the control of an individual by the collective? Where do we stand on competing rights? Those are the issues which determine "progress". For my part I'm not an opponent to the ends of many things, but resist the means by which they are approached, and I question the due diligence put into some so called remedies.

 

[bshole]

So would that be you agreeing with me on Hitler being left-wing?

I dunno. Why would it matter? Do you think modern day liberals are on a mission to kill the Jews or invade Canada?

 

[nehalem256]

I dunno. Why would it matter? Do you think modern day liberals are on a mission to kill the Jews or invade Canada?

Because liberals like to try and claim that Fascism is a right-wing ideology when it isn't. Why do you think they are so keen to do that.

And I don't know why you are going to such specifics.

Plenty of left-wing communist nations engage in killing or invasion (USSR, China, Cambodia, N Korea, Vietnam)

So its not like killing a bunch of people you don't like or invading other countries in any way precludes being a left-wing ideology.

 

[bshole]

Because liberals like to try and claim that Fascism is a right-wing ideology when it isn't. Why do you think they are so keen to do that.

And I don't know why you are going to such specifics.

Plenty of left-wing communist nations engage in killing or invasion (USSR, China, Cambodia, N Korea, Vietnam)

So its not like killing a bunch of people you don't like or invading other countries in any way precludes being a left-wing ideology.

Um, that is all ancient history. Recent history in America shows that American right wingers want every war they can get their little hands into. Does the word IRAQ mean anything at all to you son? It has been the American left wing that has been consistently and vociferously anti-war my entire life.

 

[TerryMathews]

Um, that is all ancient history. Recent history in America shows that American right wingers want every war they can get their little hands into. Does the word IRAQ mean anything at all to you son? It has been the American left wing that has been consistently and vociferously anti-war my entire life.

Lol. Must be a short life then, "son".

 

[bshole]

Lol. Must be a short life then, "son".

Not nearly as short as the young American lives lost due to chicken hawk neo-con machinations.

 

[nehalem256]

Um, that is all ancient history. Recent history in America shows that American right wingers want every war they can get their little hands into. Does the word IRAQ mean anything at all to you son? It has been the American left wing that has been consistently and vociferously anti-war my entire life.

So what you are saying is that sometimes left-wingers are war mongers and sometimes they are not.

I think you would find the same is true of right-wingers. See for example Ron Paul, and his assorted followers, as examples of dovish right-wingers.

Thanks for validating my point

 

[TerryMathews]

Not nearly as short as the young American lives lost due to chicken hawk neo-con machinations.

So, since you're not a young person (your words), how about Lyndon Johnson?

I dont think any sane person could call him "anti-war".

Of course, that does exclude you.

 

[Matt1970]

Um, that is all ancient history. Recent history in America shows that American right wingers want every war they can get their little hands into. Does the word IRAQ mean anything at all to you son? It has been the American left wing that has been consistently and vociferously anti-war my entire life.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/107-2002/s237

And BTW, the love of your life did everything he could to have a war with Syria.

 

[bshole]

So what you are saying is that sometimes left-wingers are war mongers and sometimes they are not.

I think you would find the same is true of right-wingers. See for example Ron Paul, and his assorted followers, as examples of dovish right-wingers.

Thanks for validating my point

Put it this way, the only way me and mine will EVER go to war and risk our lives is if it against America's mortal enemies..... the 0.1 percenters. Even then it would be only done in self-defense.

Mmmm, actually when I think about it, I am physical coward, so I would never go to war for ANYTHING, I would run away. The above should probably say that the only war I would support is a war on the 0.1 percenters and only if my own personal safety wasn't compromised.

 

[TerryMathews]

Put it this way, the only way me and mine will EVER go to war and risk our lives is if it against America's mortal enemies..... the 0.1 percenters. Even then it would be only done in self-defense.

Mmmm, actually when I think about it, I am physical coward, so I would never go to war for ANYTHING, I would run away. The above should probably say that the only war I would support is a war on the 0.1 percenters and only if my own personal safety wasn't compromised.

The VC were America's mortal enemies? I thought they were peaceful rice farmers.

 

[werepossum]

The article uses a lot of words to state the obvious; many progressives are deeply conformist and the movement itself is authoritarian at heart. The author conflates progressive objectives with its means.

Pretty much.

I do love how conservatives are able to simultaneously convince themselves that liberals are at once highly conformist and trying to overthrow the established norms of America to make their communist utopia, a fundamentally non-conformist opinion.

How do you figure that? Communism is the ultimate in conformist society - government owns everything of real value and orders everyone's life. Being conformist in no way requires following the present trend, just blind conformism to a particular ideology. Moonies for example are extremely conformist, yet worship of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon represents only a tiny aberration within our culture.

For whatever reason progressives don't seem to have the temperament or the stones to completely obstruct the process and even if they did right wing radicals would gladly blow up the filibuster.

It took almost 5 years for Harry Reid to negate the filibuster on Presidential appointments.

/shrug.

....

I dunno. "Rules for Radicals" advised bringing down the system by overloading it with social welfare recipients. More households now receive a government check than do not, more individuals now receive a government check than hold full time, year 'round jobs, and most months new disability awards outnumber new full time job gains. Is this just happy circumstance for the "Rules for Radicals" crowd, or do proggies perhaps have more stones than you credit?

 

[fskimospy]

How do you figure that? Communism is the ultimate in conformist society - government owns everything of real value and orders everyone's life. Being conformist in no way requires following the present trend, just blind conformism to a particular ideology. Moonies for example are extremely conformist, yet worship of the Reverend Sun Myung Moon represents only a tiny aberration within our culture.

Because to implement a communist society you need to radically not conform to our current one. The idea that people conform within groups they are part of is just stating the obvious.

 

[werepossum]

Um, that is all ancient history. Recent history in America shows that American right wingers want every war they can get their little hands into. Does the word IRAQ mean anything at all to you son? It has been the American left wing that has been consistently and vociferously anti-war my entire life.

The arguably most left wing President of my life (Carter gives him a pretty good run IMO) was just prevented from going to war with Syria by American right wingers in Congress.

Put it this way, the only way me and mine will EVER go to war and risk our lives is if it against America's mortal enemies..... the 0.1 percenters. Even then it would be only done in self-defense.

Mmmm, actually when I think about it, I am physical coward, so I would never go to war for ANYTHING, I would run away. The above should probably say that the only war I would support is a war on the 0.1 percenters and only if my own personal safety wasn't compromised.

Drone strikes on Bill Gates? LOL

You need to understand that if we ever go to war with the 0.1 percenters, the war won't cease until long after we've worked our way down through your level as well. There are a lot of individuals working full time and earning a fifth of what you earn. Just as you see Bill Gates et al as having a disgraceful amount of wealth which could only be earned through dishonesty and undeserved privilege, so these people see you as having a disgraceful amount of wealth which could only be earned through dishonesty and undeserved privilege. Can't have just a little revolution, gotta burn down everything of value. Otherwise you'd just be the new 0.1 percenter and the whole revolution would have been for naught.

 

[werepossum]

Because to implement a communist society you need to radically not conform to our current one. The idea that people conform within groups they are part of is just stating the obvious.

Not really. Most people do not identify so closely with any particular group. They are conservative but favor gay marriage, they are Catholic but favor family planning, they are Baptist but still enjoy a glass of wine. And thus they give little or no effort to remaking America in these groups' image. Social conservatives probably come closest by trying to preserve America in a particular snapshot, but we really have nothing comparable to progressives' level of conformity where even non-aligned thoughts must be attacked.

 

[Matt1970]

Put it this way, the only way me and mine will EVER go to war and risk our lives is if it against America's mortal enemies..... the 0.1 percenters. Even then it would be only done in self-defense.

Mmmm, actually when I think about it, I am physical coward, so I would never go to war for ANYTHING, I would run away. The above should probably say that the only war I would support is a war on the 0.1 percenters and only if my own personal safety wasn't compromised.

LOL, so now it's the 0.1%? I guess you finally figured it out that your fortune is at risk so the only way to protect it is to make it out the upper, upper, upper class.

 

[fskimospy]

Not really. Most people do not identify so closely with any particular group. They are conservative but favor gay marriage, they are Catholic but favor family planning, they are Baptist but still enjoy a glass of wine. And thus they give little or no effort to remaking America in these groups' image. Social conservatives probably come closest by trying to preserve America in a particular snapshot, but we really have nothing comparable to progressives' level of conformity where even non-aligned thoughts must be attacked.

This is an interesting form of ideological blindness. Progressivism in the US has generally been hampered by 'mission creep' precisely because the various factions in it disagree so much. See: Occupy Wall St.

I imagine your statement that the American left was suffering from too much conformity in thought would be met by peals of laughter in most places.

 

[werepossum]

This is an interesting form of ideological blindness. Progressivism in the US has generally been hampered by 'mission creep' precisely because the various factions in it disagree so much. See: Occupy Wall St.

I imagine your statement that the American left was suffering from too much conformity in thought would be met by peals of laughter in most places.

Peals of laughter drifting out from clouds of pot smoke.

And I didn't actually say the American left, I specifically called out progressives. There are still many good liberals on the left concerned with maximizing individual liberty rather than maximizing government power.

 

[fskimospy]

Peals of laughter drifting out from clouds of pot smoke.

And I didn't actually say the American left, I specifically called out progressives. There are still many good liberals on the left concerned with maximizing individual liberty rather than maximizing government power.

Replace american left with progressives. Laughter will continue.

 

[boomerang]

Progressivism Kills

Detroit is not healthy for children and other living things.

A snippet follows.

Detroit represents nothing less than progressivism in its final stage of decadence: Worried that unionized public-sector workers are looting your city? Detroit is already bankrupt, unable to provide basic services expected of it — half the streetlights don’t work, transit has been reduced, neighborhoods go unpatrolled. Worried that public-sector unions are ruining your schools? Detroit’s were ruined a generation or more ago, the results of which are everywhere to be seen in the city. Worried that Obamacare is going to ruin our health-care markets? General-practice physicians are hard to find in Detroit, and those willing to accept Medicaid — which covers a great swath of Detroit’s population — are rarer still. Worried about the permissive culture? Four out of five of Detroit’s children are born out of wedlock. Worried that government is making it difficult for businesses to thrive? Many people in Detroit have to travel miles to find a grocery store. This is the endgame of welfare economics: What good is Medicaid if there are no doctors? What good are food stamps where there is no food? What good are “free” schools if you’re so afraid to send your children there that you feel it prudent to arm them first?