Pro Life or Pro Choice?

[nehalem256]

Cybrsage,

As I sit here thinking on your recent comments, I don't think I'd ever be in favor of a man having the right to force a woman to have an abortion... Consent to have one giving up his 'right' to be a daddy and all that... I'd go along with and find that to be reasonable.

IF that meets the criteria for you version of equality I'd be in your corner... Not for me cuz I'd not ever ever want a potential child of mine terminated... Life of the mother or child choice... hmmmmmm That one as it would apply to my wife... That would have to be her choice alone... I'd not be able to vote on that....

Neither Cybersage nor I have said a man should be able to force a woman to get or not get an abortion. In fact we have been it plain we are not supporting that.

We have simply said that no woman has the right to force a man to be a father. If she wants to keep she can be fully responsible for it. Surely you dont think a woman needs a man?

 

[LunarRay]

No one is disputing what the law currently is. We are saying that the current law is unequal and should be changed to be as equal as possible.

We don't have a condition where equal is possible. The best we can do is try to enact a law that provides for consent of the father before the mother can terminate... Danforth is control on that... as I recall... Planned Parenthood v Danforth...

I can't imagine any support for a one sided decision where boy force girl to abort. Boy force girl to have is un Constitutional too and unlikely to change in the near term... but I think I'd go along with it... but having a child is really a woman thing....

I want equality but can't find a way to accomplish that when it comes to baby making.

Abortion is all about when do the Rights accrue to the potential child... IF it is upon attachment to the uterine wall with normal progression a child is born then abortion should be illegal... and that seems to present Equality to both mommy and daddy... Mommy is the biological manufacturer of babies and daddy is the bread winner.... at least for the child... Get some aspirin pills

Best I can do for you... You are unequally equal.:hmm:

 

[LunarRay]

Neither Cybersage nor I have said a man should be able to force a woman to get or not get an abortion. In fact we have been it plain we are not supporting that.

We have simply said that no woman has the right to force a man to be a father. If she wants to keep she can be fully responsible for it. Surely you dont think a woman needs a man?

Nope.... women don't need men... shouldn't need men to the same extent men don't need women or shouldn't. Baby stuff brings in a third person though and they need both.

Your notion of '... no right to force a man to be a father...' is not considering the reality of it all... or the words to convey your intention are not meeting my understanding... I've size 12 shoes... generally I can understand.

You don't want to invoke law that lacks support of the notion but yet maintain it to be a right of the man... ergo, women can't make man pay for it...

That is not a logical premise to base the conclusion on as I see it.

Once the first trimester is passed there is not debate I gather? Except the baby support issue.

So we're talking about that point before this fetus has rights... All I can say is that if she decides to carry to term you are morally obligated to care equally with the woman for that child as well as legally... I do think you might have a point about consenting though to an abortion... I think I could agree with that but still wonder if that is my hope men would not consent... Not sure. You disagree but it seems you'd obey the law.. so fine.


I suppose the only thing I could offer additionally is that you don't have the right to exercise a Right that interferes with an other's Right to the extent it does... and it seems that notion is not included in your position.

 

[BoT]

i am in the golden middle with this one. i am against making it illegal and/or impossible to have an abortion but i also don't believe that people make decent or reasonable let alone good decisions.
there are situations where i would even promote abortion but it certainly should not replace contraceptives.
i also think people should be held financially responsible for the abortions in cases other then "no fault" aka rape .. with prove beyond reasonable doubt.
don't leave any loop holes.

 

[nehalem256]

Abortion is all about when do the Rights accrue to the potential child... IF it is upon attachment to the uterine wall with normal progression a child is born then abortion should be illegal... and that seems to present Equality to both mommy and daddy... Mommy is the biological manufacturer of babies and daddy is the bread winner.... at least for the child... Get some aspirin pills

Sounds like you are describing traditional marriage... too bad liberals destroyed that huh?:hmm:

 

[nehalem256]

Nope.... women don't need men... shouldn't need men to the same extent men don't need women or shouldn't. Baby stuff brings in a third person though and they need both.

Which is why for millenia reproductive activity has been regulated by society.

Liberals decided that we no longer need to regulate the reproductive activity of women, but only of men. Hence the inequality.

 

[alzan]

Those other laughs...they are not laughing with you. Sorry to be the one to inform you of this, but they are laughing at you.



Nope, I am quite happy being a man. Being able to pee while standing up is something I would not readily give up for the power to force a man to be a parent. EDIT: However, being a woman does have the advantage that you can touch breasts whenever you want. Hmmm....

Still waiting on your answer as to whether you think a woman being able to force a man to be a parent while she can opt out of being one at will is equality or not.

To use your phrase, man up and answer.

Asked and answered; see post 239; 240 for your acknowledgment of my answer.

 

[alzan]

Well since responsibility seems to be something that only men exercise I was just think we should make that more clear.

Well you'll have to talk to the dictionary folk about that.

 

[LunarRay]

Sounds like you are describing traditional marriage... too bad liberals destroyed that huh?:hmm:

Well... I was certain oh those many years ago that that long haired hippy chic was going to be my wife till death do I part... and she'd be happy with sooner than later... hehehehehehe

I live my life according to my belief in what Jesus would expect of me... not the church and certainly not the bible... I don't, however, think that how I live should be forced upon you by law...

I'm an American first and last... I'm a registered Republican but only to placate my Right Wing Fundy wife.... She'd get embarrassed if I didn't show up on the rolls at her coven gathering of Conservatives...

I don't care into which pile of horse poop aka political party my thinking falls... and I change depending on being convinced I'm wrong... I have no cement attached nor defend what may have been my position if it has changed. Society tells me what it expects of me and I'll follow that and see no reason why everyone don't. I don't agree with lots of stuff our SCOTUS belch up but it is what it is... I'll support your right to live your way even if it ain't my way so long as it is lawful.

I said what I said to say that what ever you feel is what you feel and it can be opposite to what I feel and we're both right. To act however, must fall under what is lawful... not biblical but lawful.

 

[alzan]

The man loses custody battles. It is a throwback to the old days, but still here.

If we are striving for equality (which we are not, but if we are), then the man would only have to pay child support if he agreed with the choice to allow the baby to be born. Equality means both get to decide to be a parent or not.

Now, this does not mean the man can force the woman to have an abortion. Equality simply means that he can decided (just like she can) to not be a parent. Actually, the woman would still have more rights than the man, but it would at least be a more equal system.

She could still decide to abort even if he wanted to be a parent...but no system can be perfect. So basically, to have equality, both must be able to say NO to being a parent. If she wants the baby and he does not, she must agree he does not have to be a parent and doe not have to be responsible for the baby. This is no different than if he wants the baby and she does not, she can choose to not be responsible and not be a parent and he can do nothing about it.



Well, I am sure God did not intend for women to kill their unborn children...but I do see the humor in what you said.

Not everyone believes. When all do not share the same dream it is extremely impolite to talk about it in conversation.

 

[LunarRay]

Which is why for millenia reproductive activity has been regulated by society.

Liberals decided that we no longer need to regulate the reproductive activity of women, but only of men. Hence the inequality.

Guess that is why men are ugly compared to women. They have breasts too... I want breasts... not implants either... I want to be equal... and have babies... who do I see about that?

 

[alzan]

This is the sad thing. Even when I propose a system as being "fair" that still gives women more rights. Where men could choose to abdicate responsibility just like women, but could not force a woman to not get an abortion...

Liberals still whine it is unfair to women :\.

Apparently "fairness" for liberals means forcing men to support women in whatever choice they make

If you and your sexual partner du jour have unprotected sex; then yes, you are forced into society's idea of fairness.

I think you're just like cybrsage: you're jealous you were not born a female in this country.

Hinduism, here comes nehalem256.

 

[alzan]

Sounds like you are describing traditional marriage... too bad liberals destroyed that huh?:hmm:

"Liberals destroyed traditional marriage."

Myself and my wife are liberal and we're in a traditional marriage now and for the last 14.5 years, and for many more to come; sorry to have blown a hole a mile wide through your assertion.

 

[alzan]

Guess that is why men are ugly compared to women. They have breasts too... I want breasts... not implants either... I want to be equal... and have babies... who do I see about that?

I'm not sure who's doing it currently, but there have been trial(s) of implanting a fertilized egg into a male's stomach; I believe the first baby has been born or is close to birth.

There's hope for you yet, LR

 

[LunarRay]

I'm not sure who's doing it currently, but there have been trial(s) of implanting a fertilized egg into a male's stomach; I believe the first baby has been born or is close to birth.

There's hope for you yet, LR

Well... ok.. what about the breasts then... equal means equal... I want 36D just like my wife... and I don't want being this tall either... I want to be equal... to my wife... she's what... 5'8" or like that.. so need to lose 6 or so inches... and let's see. hair... I want hair just like her... and I want her to support me... like I have her... well not quite that bad.. maybe I don't want being all that equal... sorta equal... yah...

So who do I see about being sorta equal... I have that Right, right?()

 

[jackstar7]

Sounds like you are describing traditional marriage... too bad liberals destroyed that huh?:hmm:

Really? You can't get one anymore?

Can you describe the traditional marriage that you think you will never be able to have (since it was destroyed and all)?

 

[cybrsage]

Asked and answered; see post 239; 240 for your acknowledgment of my answer.

Right. The post you quoted was posted before the question was asked again and the answer given.

 

[cybrsage]

Not everyone believes. When all do not share the same dream it is extremely impolite to talk about it in conversation.

He was talking about Adam and Eve and the rib exchange...so it was relevant. You tend to not read the quoted item in the post you then quote, you should really do that as it helps you understand what is being discussed. Context is important.

 

[cybrsage]

Well... ok.. what about the breasts then... equal means equal... I want 36D just like my wife... and I don't want being this tall either... I want to be equal... to my wife... she's what... 5'8" or like that.. so need to lose 6 or so inches... and let's see. hair... I want hair just like her... and I want her to support me... like I have her... well not quite that bad.. maybe I don't want being all that equal... sorta equal... yah...

So who do I see about being sorta equal... I have that Right, right?()

You can get the breasts and the height reduction and the hair change. Having her support you, though, is unlikely. She is probably too smart to do that.

 

[alzan]

He was talking about Adam and Eve and the rib exchange...so it was relevant. You tend to not read the quoted item in the post you then quote, you should really do that as it helps you understand what is being discussed. Context is important.

But it is irrelevant as far as a woman's right to choose. In this country, Roe v. Wade and an individuals constitutional right to privacy and control of her body are the law and right we follow. A belief in G-d and/or it's laws are not part of the legal considerations.

If you really have a problem with that, and it appears you do, then you should either:

1) attempt to get Roe v. Wade overturned and/or change how the constitution is interpreted re an individual's right to privacy

2) move to another country where religion and law are more completely intertwined. I suggest Iran

 

[cybrsage]

But it is irrelevant as far as a woman's right to choose.

Again, you need to follow along and understand the context of a post before you rant and rave about it. Go back and read the context to see why your posts are silly.

 

[nehalem256]

"Liberals destroyed traditional marriage."

Myself and my wife are liberal and we're in a traditional marriage now and for the last 14.5 years, and for many more to come; sorry to have blown a hole a mile wide through your assertion.

So your wife doesnt work and stays home and takes care of little alzan?

 

[nehalem256]

But it is irrelevant as far as a woman's right to choose. In this country, Roe v. Wade and an individuals constitutional right to privacy and control of her body are the law and right we follow. A belief in G-d and/or it's laws are not part of the legal considerations.

If you really have a problem with that, and it appears you do, then you should either:

1) attempt to get Roe v. Wade overturned and/or change how the constitution is interpreted re an individual's right to privacy

2) move to another country where religion and law are more completely intertwined. I suggest Iran

No we simply need to extend the right to privacy to say that men have the right to control over their body and women cannot force men to work with their body to support women's reproductive choices.

 

[alzan]

So your wife doesnt work and stays home and takes care of little alzan?

Oh, so by "traditional" you meant man=breadwinner and wife=barefoot and pregnant; a somewhat misogynistic definition of traditional.

My wife and I married late in our adult years, long past optimal child-rearing age; so there is no little Alzan. We both work, since businesses and governments need ever-increasing larger slices of our pie.

 

[alzan]

No we simply need to extend the right to privacy to say that men have the right to control over their body and women cannot force men to work with their body to support women's reproductive choices.

Good luck with that; be sure and keep us all up to date with your progress.