Pro Life or Pro Choice?

[cybrsage]

I said send it to an attorney or CPS or some state agency.... You pay for the expense of the child and so does she... or we do in her stead. What she spends it on is another story... subject to court action...

You pay for the child... you may pay the woman cuz she has custody.

If you send it to someone else, that person will simply give it to her. The money still goes to her and not the child. She SHOULD use it to care for the child, but she does not have to do so.

I think I'm seeing the position you have.... You learn to resent the kid cuz his mom eats pop tarts and smokes.... You'd rather the kid be dead or never born than love it... Someday that kid may look his father up and at that point... well... you see my point.

Not at all. I am simply laughing at people who say that equality is a woman getting to decide for herself if she is to be a parent while a man is forced to have a woman decide for him if he is to be a parent. These people should at least be honest and say it is not equality, but suck it up anyway, it is what it is.

 

[cybrsage]

I not only expect you to pay for your child but I'd be in court demanding it if I had standing to do so. I don't care if she is smart or dumb... IF it is your child then it is your responsibility...

I think you are missing his point. He is saying the man is forced to be a father even if he does not want to be but a woman is not. He is saying this is obviously not equal treatment.

He then goes on to say that if the man wants her to have an abortion, she either must or she must agree to absolve him of all responsibility.

Basically, since she can remove her responsibility at a whim, he should be able to as well. Anything less means there is no equality.

 

[alzan]

So you expect a man to pay because a women is too stupid to get an abortion

If you engage in casual sex and get pregnant you should have an abortion. This is not debatable.



Maybe because the woman's name is on the check? And it is work the woman CHOOSE to have. Why should a man be expected to be responsible for a child, but not a woman. She is only responsible for it if she chooses to be. Why shouldnt a man have the same right?

You expect a woman to get pregnant just because you're too stupid to slip on a condom?

If you're engaging in casual sex and getting women pregnant all the time, you're doing it wrong. The idea is no pregnancy; that way you avoid all the messy abortion, adoption or financial responsibility business.

 

[alzan]

Just to be sure I understand what people are saying:

Equality is when a woman can choose to be a parent but a man can only let the woman choose FOR him.

Did I get this right?

No

 

[cybrsage]

No

No to what? No, it is not equality, or no you are wrong, it is equality?

 

[nehalem256]

You expect a woman to get pregnant just because you're too stupid to slip on a condom?

I assume the woman is there too and knows he is not using a condom.

Or maybe you think women are dumb enough to fall for the old "invisible condom gambit?

 

[alzan]

No to what? No, it is not equality, or no you are wrong, it is equality?

You asked if you got it right. IMO, no you did not get it right.

 

[cybrsage]

You asked if you got it right. IMO, no you did not get it right.

You did not say which part. I will make it simpler by asking a direct question.

Do you believe it is equality?

 

[Karl Agathon]

Ok...Voted pro-choice, yet I see now that I somehow voted pro-life? Mistake on my part perhaps.

 

[alzan]

If you send it to someone else, that person will simply give it to her. The money still goes to her and not the child. She SHOULD use it to care for the child, but she does not have to do so.




Not at all. I am simply laughing at people who say that equality is a woman getting to decide for herself if she is to be a parent while a man is forced to have a woman decide for him if he is to be a parent. These people should at least be honest and say it is not equality, but suck it up anyway, it is what it is.

That's OK. We're all laughing at you, too.

Dude, if you're all jealous that you weren't born a woman and don't have more decision-making power; maybe you should convert to Hinduism and pray really hard to be a woman next time around. This time around you are, allegedly, a man. So man up and accept some responsibility.

 

[cybrsage]

That's OK. We're all laughing at you, too.

Those other laughs...they are not laughing with you. Sorry to be the one to inform you of this, but they are laughing at you.

Dude, if you're all jealous that you weren't born a woman and don't have more decision-making power; maybe you should convert to Hinduism and pray really hard to be a woman next time around. This time around you are, allegedly, a man. So man up and accept some responsibility.

Nope, I am quite happy being a man. Being able to pee while standing up is something I would not readily give up for the power to force a man to be a parent. EDIT: However, being a woman does have the advantage that you can touch breasts whenever you want. Hmmm....

Still waiting on your answer as to whether you think a woman being able to force a man to be a parent while she can opt out of being one at will is equality or not.

To use your phrase, man up and answer.

 

[cybrsage]

Ok...Voted pro-choice, yet I see now that I somehow voted pro-life? Mistake on my part perhaps.

You were thinking "I am SOOOO happy my parents decided to be pro life" and accidently selected that choice. Happens to everyone from time to time.

 

[nehalem256]

That's OK. We're all laughing at you, too.

Dude, if you're all jealous that you weren't born a woman and don't have more decision-making power; maybe you should convert to Hinduism and pray really hard to be a woman next time around. This time around you are, allegedly, a man. So man up and accept some responsibility.

Maybe we should just rename responsibility to remansibility since you clearly dont think it is something women are capable of :\

 

[alzan]

Here's the post to which I referred:

Just to be sure I understand what people are saying:

Equality is when a woman can choose to be a parent but a man can only let the woman choose FOR him.

Did I get this right?

IMO, you did not get your statement worded correctly.

You did not say which part. I will make it simpler by asking a direct question.

Do you believe it is equality?

I think it's the closest we can get to it, based on all considerations. If you think you can do better, you should really go out and start your own country. Be sure and let us all know when that happens.

 

[cybrsage]

I think it's the closest we can get to it, based on all considerations. If you think you can do better, you should really go out and start your own country. Be sure and let us all know when that happens.

I would agree with you. It is certianly not equality. Giving one group all the power AND the ability to force that power onto others is not equality. However, like you said, it really is the closest we can currently get without a major shift in society.

We need to teach BOTH men and women to be responsible for their actions...and that is something I doubt will ever happen.

 

[alzan]

Maybe we should just rename responsibility to remansibility since you clearly dont think it is something women are capable of :\

Remansibility? Enlighten me as to the definition of this "word".

(grabs lawnchair and popcorn)

 

[alzan]

I would agree with you. It is certianly not equality. Giving one group all the power AND the ability to force that power onto others is not equality. However, like you said, it really is the closest we can currently get without a major shift in society.

We need to teach BOTH men and women to be responsible for their actions...and that is something I doubt will ever happen.

Re bolded:

With that attitude, probably not

 

[LunarRay]

If you send it to someone else, that person will simply give it to her. The money still goes to her and not the child. She SHOULD use it to care for the child, but she does not have to do so.




Not at all. I am simply laughing at people who say that equality is a woman getting to decide for herself if she is to be a parent while a man is forced to have a woman decide for him if he is to be a parent. These people should at least be honest and say it is not equality, but suck it up anyway, it is what it is.

But Cybrsage, WE ain't talking about what she does with the money. We've not even got past the part where the guy should even have to pay child support. IF you agree that both parents share in the responsibilities for the child financially then fine.
Now then... IF she co mingles the funds... it is ok so long as the needs of the child are met... I presume the daddy will visit his kid to spend time with him and like that... IF the mommy is not doing it right then he can petition the court with an 'order to show cause' and seek to gain custody and have mommy pay him support.... how do you like them peaches?...

hehehehehehe your last para reminds me of something but yes... you don't have a constitutional right to an abortion if you're not pregnant.. Guys don't normally get pregnant so there is one more rib and one more right that accrue to the woman... God was a Sharp One...

 

[nehalem256]

Remansibility? Enlighten me as to the definition of this "word".

(grabs lawnchair and popcorn)

Well since responsibility seems to be something that only men exercise I was just think we should make that more clear.

 

[cybrsage]

But Cybrsage, WE ain't talking about what she does with the money. We've not even got past the part where the guy should even have to pay child support. IF you agree that both parents share in the responsibilities for the child financially then fine.
Now then... IF she co mingles the funds... it is ok so long as the needs of the child are met... I presume the daddy will visit his kid to spend time with him and like that... IF the mommy is not doing it right then he can petition the court with an 'order to show cause' and seek to gain custody and have mommy pay him support.... how do you like them peaches?...

The man loses custody battles. It is a throwback to the old days, but still here.

If we are striving for equality (which we are not, but if we are), then the man would only have to pay child support if he agreed with the choice to allow the baby to be born. Equality means both get to decide to be a parent or not.

Now, this does not mean the man can force the woman to have an abortion. Equality simply means that he can decided (just like she can) to not be a parent. Actually, the woman would still have more rights than the man, but it would at least be a more equal system.

She could still decide to abort even if he wanted to be a parent...but no system can be perfect. So basically, to have equality, both must be able to say NO to being a parent. If she wants the baby and he does not, she must agree he does not have to be a parent and doe not have to be responsible for the baby. This is no different than if he wants the baby and she does not, she can choose to not be responsible and not be a parent and he can do nothing about it.

hehehehehehe your last para reminds me of something but yes... you don't have a constitutional right to an abortion if you're not pregnant.. Guys don't normally get pregnant so there is one more rib and one more right that accrue to the woman... God was a Sharp One...

Well, I am sure God did not intend for women to kill their unborn children...but I do see the humor in what you said.

 

[LunarRay]

He then goes on to say that if the man wants her to have an abortion, she either must or she must agree to absolve him of all responsibility.

Basically, since she can remove her responsibility at a whim, he should be able to as well. Anything less means there is no equality.

The law does not provide for the mommy to eliminate the responsibility... She may elect to forgo support assuming she can care for the child on her own... but the moment she applies for welfare the court will become involved regardless of her wishes.

This is about Rights... true! But about whose Rights. First we have the fetus who don't have any until some point in time. Then we have the woman who has a Right up to some point in time and a guy who has no right at any time regarding this issue...

Is that equality... nope! It is the Law. (at the moment) Can the man gain the right to decide on the abortion... Not yet... according to SCOTUS in Planned Parenthood v Danforth... this is about consent and notification is handled in another case that does not come to mind. Other countries do have laws about consent and notification...

He and She.... HE AND SHE both become responsible financially for the child... She pays him or he pays her depending on who changes the diapers.

 

[nehalem256]

The man loses custody battles. It is a throwback to the old days, but still here.

If we are striving for equality (which we are not, but if we are), then the man would only have to pay child support if he agreed with the choice to allow the baby to be born. Equality means both get to decide to be a parent or not.

Now, this does not mean the man can force the woman to have an abortion. Equality simply means that he can decided (just like she can) to not be a parent. Actually, the woman would still have more rights than the man, but it would at least be a more equal system.

She could still decide to abort even if he wanted to be a parent...but no system can be perfect. So basically, to have equality, both must be able to say NO to being a parent. If she wants the baby and he does not, she must agree he does not have to be a parent and doe not have to be responsible for the baby. This is no different than if he wants the baby and she does not, she can choose to not be responsible and not be a parent and he can do nothing about it.

This is the sad thing. Even when I propose a system as being "fair" that still gives women more rights. Where men could choose to abdicate responsibility just like women, but could not force a woman to not get an abortion...

Liberals still whine it is unfair to women :\.

Apparently "fairness" for liberals means forcing men to support women in whatever choice they make

 

[irishScott]

Pro Reasonable-choice. Women should have the right to abortion if they so much as used the pull out method, but safeguards should be instituted to prevent abuse. Female instinct is not a safeguard.

Don't ask me what or how, I have no clue.

 

[nehalem256]

The law does not provide for the mommy to eliminate the responsibility... She may elect to forgo support assuming she can care for the child on her own... but the moment she applies for welfare the court will become involved regardless of her wishes.

This is about Rights... true! But about whose Rights. First we have the fetus who don't have any until some point in time. Then we have the woman who has a Right up to some point in time and a guy who has no right at any time regarding this issue...

Is that equality... nope! It is the Law. (at the moment) Can the man gain the right to decide on the abortion... Not yet... according to SCOTUS in Planned Parenthood v Danforth... this is about consent and notification is handled in another case that does not come to mind. Other countries do have laws about consent and notification...

He and She.... HE AND SHE both become responsible financially for the child... She pays him or he pays her depending on who changes the diapers.

No one is disputing what the law currently is. We are saying that the current law is unequal and should be changed to be as equal as possible.

 

[LunarRay]

Cybrsage,

As I sit here thinking on your recent comments, I don't think I'd ever be in favor of a man having the right to force a woman to have an abortion... Consent to have one giving up his 'right' to be a daddy and all that... I'd go along with and find that to be reasonable.

IF that meets the criteria for you version of equality I'd be in your corner... Not for me cuz I'd not ever ever want a potential child of mine terminated... Life of the mother or child choice... hmmmmmm That one as it would apply to my wife... That would have to be her choice alone... I'd not be able to vote on that....