Pro-choice?

[BoberFett]

Well, the mods felt the need to lock the other thread, so I'll just start a new one.

I'm not sure why some people find it so difficult to understand. Pro-choice in this society means pro-womans-choice and not pro-mans-choice.

When unprotected sex occurs, both people make a choice. The man and woman both go into it know the possbility for pregnancy exists. In the instance where pregnancy does occur and is unwanted, this society has chosen to give women a choice. They can go see a doctor and remove the unwanted fetus. The man does not have this choice. His future is shaped by the choice the woman has been given, and he has no say in the matter.

The problem goes both ways. If the woman wants the child and the man doesn't, she can have the baby and extort money out of the man for the next 18 years. If the man wants the child and the woman doesn't, she can abort it without his consent. Why shouldn't the man be able to legally force the woman to carry and bear that child (remember, she consented to unprotected sex, she made her choice) and then the man take custody and force child support out of her for 18 years?

This seems like a gross injustice to me, the legal system is NOT equal in this case. At the moment of conception, we've given all the power to the women, and the men have none.

I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Keep this one on topic as well as at a fairly reasonable level of debate, and it will stay open. Otherwise I bring out my trucks and hoses again, put out the flames, and then put on my travel agent suit and begin handing out free vacations.

Fire Fighter/Travel Agent Mod

 

[Codewiz]

Men are evil. End of story

I agree with you though.

 

[waitman]

I agree also.

 

[amnesiac]

SHouldn't this go to the Flamefes....err I mean Politics and News Forum?

 

[Codewiz]

How is this politics or news????

 

[Tetsuo]

Life sucks, then you go daed

 

[Spoooon]

Originally posted by: amnesiac
SHouldn't this go to the Flamefes....err I mean Politics and News Forum?

The mods need to create a new forum solely for threads that we know are going to turn into a flamefest.

 

[MegaloManiaK]

So do you feel that posting on anandtech will in some way change anyones point of view on the issue?


Take it to P&N they will argue with you about it and enjoy it.

 

[imported_Papi]

I've never heard of any story involving a man taking his gf to court because he wanted his unborn baby. If there has been story, my apologies because I've never heard of one.

I think that is a solution, I wish could be made a right. Unfortunately the governments feel that it is the woman's right to decide. After all she is the one who goes through the 42+ weeks of carrying the unborn.

I'm pro choice. I don't think it's anyone's right to discuss abortion unless you are the one who is immediately involved. Unless it is you who is being faced with this issue.

There is lots of people ranting and raving abortion is killing a unborn baby, yet I do not see any of you signing up to adopt children. You want all these unwanted children to live happy lives. Why don't you go help then. Instead of ever having children of your own blood, go adopt.

First, instead of adopting a child that has not yet been born go adopt a 15 year old boy who is constantly running away from group homes, addicted to drugs and drinks and become violent. Who's been in and out of detention centers since he was 12. I urge you go save the world.

I think all you anti-abortion freaks need to STFU and go adopt. Put you money where your mouth is and go save America's children.

 

[Mookow]

Of course I'm pro-choice. Everyone should be allowed to choose if they want to fsck or not... and whether or not to use protection. Just understand that there are consequences to everything, and when you get hit with them, deal with it. Oh, that, and wrapping it up doesnt always work, so eventually, you roll the dice enough and you'll get some snake eyes... or in this case, kids.

The point is, you made a choice, and now you want to be able to make another one. I dont like the fact that women suddenly get 100% of the vote and 50% of the economic consequences when it comes to children, but thats how it stood when you decided to screw, and you (presumably) knew that ahead of time.

"You pay your money, and you take your chances"

 

[captains]

dont know if this is every where but u pay till their 18 and if the kid goes to college u pay till their 21

 

[isaacmacdonald]

this is fascinating because there is a remote chance that pregnancy can occur even if you engage in "protected" sex (at least with a condom). I think condoms claim 99.9% effectiveness, which actually indicates an appreciable risk of failure.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
Well, the mods felt the need to lock the other thread, so I'll just start a new one.

I'm not sure why some people find it so difficult to understand. Pro-choice in this society means pro-womans-choice and not pro-mans-choice.

When unprotected sex occurs, both people make a choice. The man and woman both go into it know the possbility for pregnancy exists. In the instance where pregnancy does occur and is unwanted, this society has chosen to give women a choice. They can go see a doctor and remove the unwanted fetus. The man does not have this choice. His future is shaped by the choice the woman has been given, and he has no say in the matter.

The problem goes both ways. If the woman wants the child and the man doesn't, she can have the baby and extort money out of the man for the next 18 years. If the man wants the child and the woman doesn't, she can abort it without his consent. Why shouldn't the man be able to legally force the woman to carry and bear that child (remember, she consented to unprotected sex, she made her choice) and then the man take custody and force child support out of her for 18 years?

This seems like a gross injustice to me, the legal system is NOT equal in this case. At the moment of conception, we've given all the power to the women, and the men have none.

I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Don't have unprotected sex if you don't want to have a baby.

Problem solved.

As far as the case where a man wants to keep the baby but the woman doesn't, yes, I'm with you in that it should be a joint decision but our laws and courts are not setup to handle that, unfortunately.

And, yes, it has happened that a man has wanted to keep the baby but the woman didn't. I cannot find the articles now but they are out there.

 

[rpc64]

Originally posted by: LordJezo
Down with baby killers!

 

[TMPadmin]

Originally posted by: yayo
I've never heard of any story involving a man taking his gf to court because he wanted his unborn baby. If there has been story, my apologies because I've never heard of one.

I think that is a solution, I wish could be made a right. Unfortunately the governments feel that it is the woman's right to decide. After all she is the one who goes through the 42+ weeks of carrying the unborn.

I'm pro choice. I don't think it's anyone's right to discuss abortion unless you are the one who is immediately involved. Unless it is you who is being faced with this issue.

There is lots of people ranting and raving abortion is killing a unborn baby, yet I do not see any of you signing up to adopt children. You want all these unwanted children to live happy lives. Why don't you go help then. Instead of ever having children of your own blood, go adopt.

First, instead of adopting a child that has not yet been born go adopt a 15 year old boy who is constantly running away from group homes, addicted to drugs and drinks and become violent. Who's been in and out of detention centers since he was 12. I urge you go save the world.

I think all you anti-abortion freaks need to STFU and go adopt. Put you money where your mouth is and go save America's children.

It's the mis-information like this that creates the violence associated with this issue. If you could simply look at the statements you have made and take the other side and try to answer each question logically, you will see where your arguments falter.

As for abortion, I agree with how BoberFett puts the double standard. Two people go into sex knowing the outcome. If you are not prepared to raise a baby there are other way of gratifying each other that will not lead to a baby.

Just as a side note a full term baby is 37 - 42 week. Any good OB/GYN would induce at 42 weeks (specific cases excluded).

 

[Red Dawn]

You might have a point Bober if it weren't for the fact that so many men who have children out of Wedlock shirk their responibilities.

 

[hdeck]

Originally posted by: Mookow
Of course I'm pro-choice. Everyone should be allowed to choose if they want to fsck or not... and whether or not to use protection. Just understand that there are consequences to everything, and when you get hit with them, deal with it. Oh, that, and wrapping it up doesnt always work, so eventually, you roll the dice enough and you'll get some snake eyes... or in this case, kids.

^^

 

[Maleficus]

Originally posted by: yayo
I've never heard of any story involving a man taking his gf to court because he wanted his unborn baby. If there has been story, my apologies because I've never heard of one.

I think that is a solution, I wish could be made a right. Unfortunately the governments feel that it is the woman's right to decide. After all she is the one who goes through the 42+ weeks of carrying the unborn.

I'm pro choice. I don't think it's anyone's right to discuss abortion unless you are the one who is immediately involved. Unless it is you who is being faced with this issue.

There is lots of people ranting and raving abortion is killing a unborn baby, yet I do not see any of you signing up to adopt children. You want all these unwanted children to live happy lives. Why don't you go help then. Instead of ever having children of your own blood, go adopt.

First, instead of adopting a child that has not yet been born go adopt a 15 year old boy who is constantly running away from group homes, addicted to drugs and drinks and become violent. Who's been in and out of detention centers since he was 12. I urge you go save the world.

I think all you anti-abortion freaks need to STFU and go adopt. Put you money where your mouth is and go save America's children.

Or maybe people need to take responsibility for their actions? HRM!?!? amazing isn't it.

 

[TMPadmin]

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
this is fascinating because there is a remote chance that pregnancy can occur even if you engage in "protected" sex (at least with a condom). I think condoms claim 99.9% effectiveness, which actually indicates an appreciable risk of failure.

Nope

Perfect use of male condoms: three out of 100 women get pregnant.

Typical use of male condoms: 14 out of 100 women get pregnant.

 

[Ness]

I'm pro-choice simply for the fact that nothing gives me the right to tell what morals they should or shouldn't have, and I don't have the privledge of making everyone feel the same way as me.

Personally, I don't like the idea of abortion. There are so many ways to avoid pregnancy, and a child shouldn't be brought into this world because their parents are too stupid to use those means. Then again, that argument works both ways.

I'm against abortion, but it's not fair for me to impose that on other people, just as they don't to me.

Funny, because I'm catholic, and the Catholic church is hell bent on ridding the world of abortion. Apparently, all un-baptized babies can't go to heaven, but my thought is that if there is a God, then he is truly great and just, and he wouldn't let that happen. Baptism is simply a tradition and although it is signifigant, it doesn't mean you love god any more or less if you aren't baptized.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: TMPadmin

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
this is fascinating because there is a remote chance that pregnancy can occur even if you engage in "protected" sex (at least with a condom). I think condoms claim 99.9% effectiveness, which actually indicates an appreciable risk of failure.

Nope

Perfect use of male condoms: three out of 100 women get pregnant.

Typical use of male condoms: 14 out of 100 women get pregnant.

Links to support that?

 

[Ness]

Originally posted by: Maleficus

Originally posted by: yayo
I've never heard of any story involving a man taking his gf to court because he wanted his unborn baby. If there has been story, my apologies because I've never heard of one.

I think that is a solution, I wish could be made a right. Unfortunately the governments feel that it is the woman's right to decide. After all she is the one who goes through the 42+ weeks of carrying the unborn.

I'm pro choice. I don't think it's anyone's right to discuss abortion unless you are the one who is immediately involved. Unless it is you who is being faced with this issue.

There is lots of people ranting and raving abortion is killing a unborn baby, yet I do not see any of you signing up to adopt children. You want all these unwanted children to live happy lives. Why don't you go help then. Instead of ever having children of your own blood, go adopt.

First, instead of adopting a child that has not yet been born go adopt a 15 year old boy who is constantly running away from group homes, addicted to drugs and drinks and become violent. Who's been in and out of detention centers since he was 12. I urge you go save the world.

I think all you anti-abortion freaks need to STFU and go adopt. Put you money where your mouth is and go save America's children.

Or maybe people need to take responsibility for their actions? HRM!?!? amazing isn't it.

And a child should suffer a piss-poor life to teach two parents a lesson?

 

[isaacmacdonald]

Originally posted by: TMPadmin

Originally posted by: isaacmacdonald
this is fascinating because there is a remote chance that pregnancy can occur even if you engage in "protected" sex (at least with a condom). I think condoms claim 99.9% effectiveness, which actually indicates an appreciable risk of failure.

Nope

Perfect use of male condoms: three out of 100 women get pregnant.

Typical use of male condoms: 14 out of 100 women get pregnant.

holy crap. I thought 1 in a thousand was bad!!!

 

[TravisT]

I'm pro-choice only in certain circumstances. In no way do I feel that it is 'Ok' to abort a child after someone had sex (protected or unprotected, it doesn't matter). All in all I look at it as that if you chose to do this, you ahve to face up to the consequences. And I can say this because i've been in this situation. People say financially you can't afford it. The American government is awesome at helping out poor families in most cases.

The only way i can see this as something that I don't really look at as being a horrible thing is if its putting the mother and/or child in danger of carrying the baby the whole 9 months. Or if the mother was raped. Something similar to those situations I can see why you would. But if its only because you dont' want to take responsibility... then I find that a terrible and cruel thing.

 

[isaacmacdonald]

Nope

Perfect use of male condoms: three out of 100 women get pregnant.

Typical use of male condoms: 14 out of 100 women get pregnant.

where are these statistics from? There must be a mistake because you're talking about pregnancy not failure rate. This would indicate a tremendous failure rate (like 10-20%)