Privilege

[bradly1101]

What privilege do each of you enjoy?

So far I have:

- White privilege
- Male privilege
- CIS privilege
- Heterosexual privilege
- Upper class privilege

That last one has taken 16 years to go from dirt poor, stupid 23 year old with a pregnant girlfriend to where I am now so I'm quite proud of that one.

I've also been dieting and have lost a lot of weight lately. Can't wait until I'm accused of having thin privilege, too!

Seriously, is "privilege" a thing? If it is, what, if anything, should be done about it? If a person has "privilege" what duties or burdens does that entail? Should we work towards eliminating "privilege" or is "privilege" a natural and unavoidable result of a diverse population with diverse opportunities, random decision making, and blind luck?

Comparisons are always crap and are easily discarded. Did any of the greats spend time in comparison?

 

[Atreus21]

Obviously not, but take a randomly selected set of 1,000 white guys and 1,000 black guys, both sets with the same distributions of outcomes, we can then automatically assume as a group the white guys had an easier time than the black guys.

So, with the same set, you'd also support the automatic assumption that the black group had a higher rate of criminality than the white group?

 

[Commodus]

So two different guys, one white, and one black. Partners in the same law firm, same salary, same quality of life.

We can automatically assume that the white guy had an easier time than the black guy, correct?

You can't assume that, but nor can you assume the black guy had as easy a time as the white guy, either. That's the whole problem with privilege, really: it's an assumption that people in the same positions have always had the same opportunities, challenges and freedoms. Yeah, that black lawyer could have grown up in a middle-class suburb, sheltered from want and danger... but that's statistically less likely, and he's still going to be the one the police pull over because his Mercedes is "too nice."

The fight against privilege is not a war between cultures -- it's an attempt to acknowledge people's actual advantages and disadvantages, whether they're individual experiences or collective problems like institutionalized racism. Many white people have had to struggle to rise up the social ladder, but we can't pretend that American society doesn't regularly force minorities to climb that ladder with one hand tied behind their back.

 

[cytg111]

Spot the white guy :

https://www.statista.com/chart/2469/the-richest-families-in-america/

 

[HomerJS]

You can't assume that, but nor can you assume the black guy had as easy a time as the white guy, either. That's the whole problem with privilege, really: it's an assumption that people in the same positions have always had the same opportunities, challenges and freedoms. Yeah, that black lawyer could have grown up in a middle-class suburb, sheltered from want and danger... but that's statistically less likely, and he's still going to be the one the police pull over because his Mercedes is "too nice."

The fight against privilege is not a war between cultures -- it's an attempt to acknowledge people's actual advantages and disadvantages, whether they're individual experiences or collective problems like institutionalized racism. Many white people have had to struggle to rise up the social ladder, but we can't pretend that American society doesn't regularly force minorities to climb that ladder with one hand tied behind their back.

Here's something we can assume. The election of Obama in '08 with the behaviour of Trump would have been impossible. Only a white guy acting like that could win.

 

[hal2kilo]

What do you think the phrase (not spoken aloud much anymore) is all about.
Free, white, and 21. If that does not scream privilege, I don't know what else does.

 

[mect]

So, with the same set, you'd also support the automatic assumption that the black group had a higher rate of criminality than the white group?

Absolutely. Of course, that reinforces the premise that blacks face greater societal obstacles to success, unless you believe that blacks are genetically predisposed to crime compared to whites.

 

[Jhhnn]

A good analogy I've heard that describes privilege: it's waltzing up to the starting line for a race without realizing that your competitor had to run three miles just to get to that starting line. You think everything is equal, but people from other demographics have to fight much harder just to get to the level you take for granted.

You can't usually eliminate privilege, but you can acknowledge that you have it and show respect for groups that don't have your luxuries.

This is easily the most meaningful post in the whole thread.

 

[Maxima1]

This is easily the most meaningful post in the whole thread.

How? It doesn't explain. It's just an assertion. Many things that hold down blacks (e.g. poverty, single parent households, etc.) are applicable to white people as well. It's dumb to suggest that every white person (no matter IQ, appearance, upbringing etc.) has a leg up over every black person.

 

[Atreus21]

A classic example: traffic stops. White people don't get pulled over because they're driving a car that's "too nice," or because they don't look like they belong in the neighborhood. Their greatest fear is usually a speeding ticket; black people have to worry about whether or not they'll even survive the stop (just ask Philando Castile). Pretending that this discrepancy in treatment doesn't exist is effectively endorsing discriminatory police practices.

Forgot about this:

https://nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/legitimacy/pages/welcome.aspx

Although data show that whites hold the police in higher regard than do minorities, race has not been found to directly influence how people form opinions about law enforcement. In fact, when researchers controlled for factors such as the level of neighborhood crime, the reported quality of police-citizen encounters, and other demographic variables such as age, income and education, the effects of race disappeared entirely or were substantially reduced. Researchers concluded that race affects satisfaction with the police indirectly and in conjunction with other factors, including the level of crime within one's neighborhood.

Some excerpts:

In Savannah, Ga., trained observers accompanied police officers on 132 tours and focused on officers' decision-making and discretion prior to a traffic stop. Officers were questioned every time a person aroused their suspicions. Of those who evoked suspicion, 74 percent were male and 71 percent were minorities. Suspicious behavior, a traffic offense, “looking nervous” or similar behavior accounted for 66 percent of the officers' reactions; 18 percent were the result of information they had received to be on the lookout for a suspect; 10 percent because someone was where he or she would not be expected to be; and 6 percent because of the person's appearance. Officers stopped individuals under suspicion 59 percent of the time, but the suspect's race did not affect the outcome of the stop. The authors concluded that the results did not support the perception that a high level of discrimination occurs prior to a traffic stop.

A study in Cincinnati found that black drivers had longer stops and higher search rates than white drivers. However, when the researchers matched stops involving black drivers with similarly situated white drivers, those stopped at the same time, place, and context (reason for the stop, validity of the driver's license, etc.), they found no differences. Their conclusion was that differences in the time, place, and context of the stops were the cause of the longer stops and higher search rates.

• Differences in exposure to the police. If minority drivers tend to drive in communities where there are more police patrols then the police will be more likely to notice any infractions the black drivers commit. Having more intense police patrols in these areas could be a source of bias or it could simply be the police department's response to crime in the neighborhood.
• Differences in offending. Seatbelt usage is chronically lower among black drivers. [3] If a law enforcement agency aggressively enforces seatbelt violations, police will stop more black drivers.

 

[deathBOB]

To me, privilege is most easily understood as both the “benefit of the doubt” combined with your social circle. It’s a huge advantage when strangers assume you are upstanding simply based on who you are, and your social connections provide you with economic opportinities.

 

[Atreus21]

The fight against privilege is not a war between cultures -- it's an attempt to acknowledge people's actual advantages and disadvantages, whether they're individual experiences or collective problems like institutionalized racism. Many white people have had to struggle to rise up the social ladder, but we can't pretend that American society doesn't regularly force minorities to climb that ladder with one hand tied behind their back.

But that's my whole objection - you can't glean actual advantages and disadvantages based on skin color alone. You can only make general assumptions. Is it any fairer for me to treat blacks as potential criminals because they are responsible for crime in excess of their representation in the population?

 

[Commodus]

But that's my whole objection - you can't glean actual advantages and disadvantages based on skin color alone. You can only make general assumptions. Is it any fairer for me to treat blacks as potential criminals because they are responsible for crime in excess of their representation in the population?

No, but you can acknowledge that, historically, black people have typically faced and continue to face systemic discrimination and a legacy of slavery that white people haven't. And remember, that disproportionate crime is the result of that discrimination and legacy.

 

[Jhhnn]

How? It doesn't explain. It's just an assertion. Many things that hold down blacks (e.g. poverty, single parent households, etc.) are applicable to white people as well. It's dumb to suggest that every white person (no matter IQ, appearance, upbringing etc.) has a leg up over every black person.

Every? No. In general? Yes, if decreasingly so. As a straight white male my privilege extends all the way back to the accident of birth & to the way I was raised. Fortune shapes our lives in ways we often fail to appreciate or even comprehend.

It's also important to remember that we live in an imperfect society where Jim Crow still held sway in too many places a scant 50 years ago. Old ways die hard.

 

[Atreus21]

No, but you can acknowledge that, historically, black people have typically faced and continue to face systemic discrimination and a legacy of slavery that white people haven't. And remember, that disproportionate crime is the result of that discrimination and legacy.

How much black crime will we excuse on this basis? Are they ever to be treated according to the same standards as everyone else?

 

[nickqt]

How much black crime will we excuse on this basis? Are they ever to be treated according to the same standards as everyone else?

Black criminals are treated much better than white criminals. I mean, just look at their sentence lengths.

Just kidding. You're an idiot.

 

[Guurn]

When this first came up quite some time ago I have felt that lumping everyone together was a misrepresentation of what goes on. Things like this are much more granular than they appear. At certain times and in certain places everyone realizes benefits and everyone has things happen that suck. Maybe it is more in certain areas and maybe it is transitional who is the oppressor and whom is the oppressed. We have to deal with injustice as we see it.

We also have to keep the most important thing in mind, that our goal is to bring everyone up not tear anyone down(other than the oppressor).

 

[Atreus21]

Black criminals are treated much better than white criminals. I mean, just look at their sentence lengths.

Just kidding. You're an idiot.

Idiot here, Imbecile in the 2nd amendment thread.

Dude change the tampon and chill out.

 

[deathBOB]

Idiot here, Imbecile in the 2nd amendment thread.

Dude change the tampon and chill out.

Gee an idiot and a sexist.

 

[Starbuck1975]

A good analogy I've heard that describes privilege: it's waltzing up to the starting line for a race without realizing that your competitor had to run three miles just to get to that starting line. You think everything is equal, but people from other demographics have to fight much harder just to get to the level you take for granted.

You can't usually eliminate privilege, but you can acknowledge that you have it and show respect for groups that don't have your luxuries.

That’s an inaccurate analogy

You have a select few people who have the luxury of just showing up to run the race.

You have many more people who have to run just to get to the starting line. For the white person who has to run 2.75 miles to the starting line instead of 3 miles, it’s ridiculous to assert that they have a position of privilege. The black person who runs 3 miles and the white person who runs 2.75 miles have a lot in common.

The problem with our society is you have two political parties that play the disadvantaged against one another while the guy waiting at the starting line is erecting a steeple chase in front of the starting line.

The problem is that due to identity politics, we assume and lump all the white competitor into a bucket of privilege. Some do have privilege. Many more do not.

Trump tapped into the frustration born of this oversight.

 

[mect]

How much black crime will we excuse on this basis? Are they ever to be treated according to the same standards as everyone else?

Are you arguing that blacks are genetically predispositioned to commit crime?

 

[Commodus]

How much black crime will we excuse on this basis? Are they ever to be treated according to the same standards as everyone else?

It's not an excuse, it's an explanation. And I'm already treating them by the same standards as everyone else -- crime tends to increase wherever there's economic hardship and a lack of opportunity, it's just that it's been particularly strong in the black community through institutionalized racism.

You want to eliminate factors that lead to disproportionately high crime levels? Demand dramatic increases to public school funding. Support programs that bring businesses and jobs to these communities. Encourage initiatives that have police becoming part of the community with full accountability, not just imposing their will. Support affordable health care and tax cuts that are actually aimed at lower-income households, not just short-term bonuses used to hide tax cuts for the wealthy. Don't deprive people of opportunity and then wonder why they get desperate.

 

[Jhhnn]

Are you arguing that blacks are genetically predispositioned to commit crime?

Only until you call him on it.

 

[jackstar7]

That’s an inaccurate analogy

You have a select few people who have the luxury of just showing up to run the race.

You have many more people who have to run just to get to the starting line. For the white person who has to run 2.75 miles to the starting line instead of 3 miles, it’s ridiculous to assert that they have a position of privilege. The black person who runs 3 miles and the white person who runs 2.75 miles have a lot in common.

The problem with our society is you have two political parties that play the disadvantaged against one another while the guy waiting at the starting line is erecting a steeple chase in front of the starting line.

The problem is that due to identity politics, we assume and lump all the white competitor into a bucket of privilege. Some do have privilege. Many more do not.

Trump tapped into the frustration born of this oversight.

If a cop is holding the starting gun, then I know I don't want to be anything other than white when they go to fire it.

 

[Maxima1]

Every? No. In general? Yes, if decreasingly so. As a straight white male my privilege extends all the way back to the accident of birth & to the way I was raised. Fortune shapes our lives in ways we often fail to appreciate or even comprehend.

But the stuff you are referring to are largely not unique between the groups. It's just rhetoric. Do you feel the same way about males vs. females, since that's another case where people assert males have it so much better? I also find that baffling because there are many women I would rather be than many men if I had a choice.

It's also important to remember that we live in an imperfect society where Jim Crow still held sway in too many places a scant 50 years ago. Old ways die hard.

What's weird is that the IQ gap is the same anywhere here. So it doesn't necessarily matter if it's Jim Crow South. Here's a graph from Flynn/Dickens on projected IQs of blacks in 1972 and 2002. Notice how it declines with age? That's the so-called Wilson effect where genetics start overpowering shared environment factors. You'll notice from education interventions that IQ gains in early life simply fade out and aren't permanent. Even in the 2002 cohort, they have a double digit deficit compared to whites by adulthood, which undoubtedly trashes their life outcomes. This is generally what people are complaining about and blaming on society, but how come it's still stagnant over decades of improvement?

http://www.iapsych.com/iqmr/fe/LinkedDocuments/dickens2006a.pdf

Are you arguing that blacks are genetically predispositioned to commit crime?

Can you demonstrate that it's from discrimination and legacy? The same can be said about crime rates of blacks in other developed countries. Even if someone assumes 100% environment, why isn't it about poverty or something that has less to do with institutionalized discrimination? The cops sure didn't lower their IQ points by pulling them over.

If a cop is holding the starting gun, then I know I don't want to be anything other than white when they go to fire it.

What's up with the stupid hyperbole? The majority shot weren't unarmed, and even if they were, it wasn't for a lack of trying. We're talking about not many individuals. More people get struck by lightning in a year.

A study from Harvard suggests no bias for shootings, but somewhat significant in others, though still nowhere near the exaggerations.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/...police-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html