Private Vs. Universal Health Care system

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Ornery
There is no reason to believe a universal system would be handled any better than our current fvcked up Social Security system. I had no say in that abortion of a program, so I'll be damned if I let our resident Socialist/Communists slip this crap past me without a fight.

Face it, our private care system isn't any better.

And if Bush had gotten his gift to the stock brokers through, SS would be in a lot worse shape.

why? how? can anyone for a moment stop and think, rather than listening to the BS spread by AARP?

Not to take the thread off topic, but if everyone had their own little private account, every time they made a change, that stock broker would take a cut. Any gain in would be eaten up by a load of fees that would be paid to one of Bush's better supporters, the stock brokers. If the stock market is so great, why not invest a portion of the entire SS fund? Oh yeah, that wouldn't generate profits for Dubya's campaign contributors like millions of tiny accounts would.

Want a private account? No one's stopping you. I have 4 accounts plus a 403b, myself.

 

[mchammer]

Well my point really is that heath care insurance isn't the problem, health care is. Insurance is best for things that are unforseen and happen infrequently, as in the case of life insurance or flood insurance.

Health care is too expensive and often ineffective, and there is too much reliance on medications, often with unknown side effects.

 

[nobody2you]

Just to be clear, I think a country like the USA should have some form of universal health care. It's a shame that were printing endless dollars and we still have people in this country without medical insurance--I'am one of them. We can find money for war but for the people in this country, we can't. World is confusing.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Not to take the thread off topic, but if everyone had their own little private account, every time they made a change, that stock broker would take a cut. Any gain in would be eaten up by a load of fees that would be paid to one of Bush's better supporters, the stock brokers. If the stock market is so great, why not invest a portion of the entire SS fund? Oh yeah, that wouldn't generate profits for Dubya's campaign contributors like millions of tiny accounts would.

Want a private account? No one's stopping you. I have 4 accounts plus a 403b, myself.

the fees don't make SS in a lot worse shape, which was your contention

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: nobody2you
Just to be clear, I think a country like the USA should have some form of universal health care. It's a shame that were printing endless dollars and we still have people in this country without medical insurance--I'am one of them. We can find money for war but for the people in this country, we can't. World is confusing.

war is specifically provided for in the federal constitution. maybe you should read it.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Buttzilla
my thoughts are scattered on this subject and i don't know where to begin my research. I was going to start with income tax, since our tax dollars are paying for welfare, i assume that those in the higher tax bracket where bear the bulk of this burden.

i was talking to a pharmacist friend and he also told me that canada has a universal health care system, but the drawbacks are it undermines the wages of the doctors there. he told me that pharmacist in canada make around 50-60k whereas pharmacist in the US make around 100k.

Google tax haven..rich people don't pay taxes

 

[MrToilet]

Here's some info from my hospital ER in Iowa:

Every Medicaid patient that comes in (which is quite a few- about 30-35% of our patients) gets these benefits:
$1 for prescriptions
no Copay for ER or office visits

One example - a mother brought her 2 year old in just so Medicaid could pay for her *Motrin*. Mind you, she's a pack-a-day smoker, and she can't afford the $3 bottle of Motrin? Seriously.

Me, as a hospital employee-
$10-$40 a prescription, and that's if my Blue Cross insurance decides to cover it
$50 ER copay, $20 office copay

so what I should do is quit my job, have some kids, so I qualify for Medicaid and food stamps? That's what people do here. It's frustrating to see perfectly healthy people use the ER as their personal walk-in clinic, since they don't have to pay a damn thing to come in. There are parents who bring their kids in every couple weeks for stupid stuff. It's a waste of resources.

Now take that situation, and expand it to everyone, so everyone gets government-based health care? No thanks.

 

[Buttzilla]

Originally posted by: MrToilet
Here's some info from my hospital ER in Iowa:

Every Medicaid patient that comes in (which is quite a few- about 30-35% of our patients) gets these benefits:
$1 for prescriptions
no Copay for ER or office visits

One example - a mother brought her 2 year old in just so Medicaid could pay for her *Motrin*. Mind you, she's a pack-a-day smoker, and she can't afford the $3 bottle of Motrin? Seriously.

Me, as a hospital employee-
$10-$40 a prescription, and that's if my Blue Cross insurance decides to cover it
$50 ER copay, $20 office copay

so what I should do is quit my job, have some kids, so I qualify for Medicaid and food stamps? That's what people do here. It's frustrating to see perfectly healthy people use the ER as their personal walk-in clinic, since they don't have to pay a damn thing to come in. There are parents who bring their kids in every couple weeks for stupid stuff. It's a waste of resources.

Now take that situation, and expand it to everyone, so everyone gets government-based health care? No thanks.

i understand your frustration, at our dental office, a complete exam (treatment plan, full mouth xray, cleaning) is 60 dollars. medical patients only pay 28. with a receptionist, dental assistant, office manager on payroll, plus overhead cost (xray film, solvent, dental supplies...which is NOT cheap) we lose money when we see a medical patient.

what's sad is that i know many of these people are trying hard to make a better living for themselves, those are the one's we mainly take in, but it's the people that completley undermines the system that ruins it for everyone.

 

[BriGy86]

sounds like the real solution we need to look for is how to keep people from taking advantage of the system

 

[miniMUNCH]

Private healthcare is more cost effective than socialized healthcare...before we go out try to socialize medicine we should try a couple of other measures such as:

1. Form a government oversight system for hosiptals and doctors akin to what the FDA does for drugs. The oversight system will be responsible for ensuring that doctors and hosipitals are properly trained/certified for all care/surgeries that they perform. Concommitant with this action, bar lawsuits against doctors, hosipitals, and so forth...the oversight system will decide the punishment for hosipitals and doctors in the event of malepractice cases (arbitration). Fines against the doctor and hosipital come out of their own pocket (malepractice insurance is not allowed and thus not needed) and the government will subsidize the fines to pay the malepractice victim although the typical settlement would be smaller in some cases than could be won via the legal system ( a trade off between a "sue at will" private system and "you cannot sue whatsoever" socialized system ). In addition, doctors and hosipital may be further disciplined by the oversight committee as necessary; discipline could include requiring the doctor to retrain on a surgerical technique and/or even suspend a doctor from certain procedures/care. There are a lot of other things that would be entailed in this system.

Fundamentally, this will rid the medical system of need for malepractice insurance which would significantly reduce cost of medical care. Also, I think this would help keep doctors up to snuff.

2. Drug manufacturers are not allowed to advertise perscription only drugs in the media. Some of the major drugs out there...30% of their cost is due to marketing expenses. This is completely idiotic. Advertise and market drugs to the doctors via approved communication channels, not to patients. I think the FDA and the medical oversight system mentioned above could set up a medical liason group w/ a website to discuss and clearly present the facts about each drug to make it easier for doctors to get the facts and share their thoughts/experiences with other doctors.

These two items alone would reduce healthcare costs by quite a bit...I'd say 25%. My mom has been working in health insurance for 20 years. And I have about 10 friends or family members who are doctors...they all think 1 and 2 are good ideas.

 

[marvdmartian]

Private health care, hands down. Why??

1. Faster health care. Doctors who are destined to only make X amount of dollars per year, no matter how hard they work, will only work to the minimum required amount. That's because they have no incentive (other than a personal work ethic) to do more than that. In the USA, with the health insurance I have through my employer, if I need an MRI done, it can usually be scheduled within a month, tops. In countries that have socialized (i.e., universal) health care, you might wait as SHORT a time period as 6 months, or as long as a year or more, just to get that MRI. God help you if you need surgery, and it's not an emergency.

2. Alongside with reason #1, better overall health care. My doctor has the incentive to work harder, to make more money. By steady application of a hectic (overwhelming) work schedule, they get their loans paid off (most doctors fact tens of thousands of dollars of student loans by the time they hit private practise) in a minimum period of time, and then it's pretty much pure gravy after that. Ever see a doctor over the age of 40, that wasn't driving a nice car??? Call it the stick and carrot approach to life. Dangle an incentive over a person's head, and they're more likely to work hard to get it. No incentive, why bother??

It's much like the reason why communism looks good on paper, but doesn't work in reality, unless you FORCE people to follow it. Everyone works for the embetterment of everyone else. Sounds great, right? Yeah, until joe schmoe over here decides that he's working harder than sam over there, who thinks he's too smart to do this menial labor, and ought to be put in charge, who's married to sue, who thinks she deserves nicer things in her house than joe's wife........and before you know it, you have the soviet style of communism, where everyone's equal to everyone else. Only thing is, you have some folks that are "more equal" than you, comrade, and they're going to punish you unless you follow the rules they've set up for everyone.....but themselves, of course!

People are jealous, lazy, slovenly.......did I mention lazy? If you have NO incentive to work harder, NO upward mobility, and NO chance of ever bettering your status in life, why would you want to work harder than everyone else? Chances are, you wouldn't. And before long, you're working LESS than the next guy, who notices it, and does less work themselves......and in no time, you're having to set standards for work.......a minimum amount of acceptable labor, in order to maintain any semblance of accomplishment. Makes sense, eh? :roll:


If nothing else, just look at what happened with the last respiratory ailment that came out of Asia, a couple years ago (sorry, I have no memory, and can't remember what it was called). In Asian countries, it killed people by the scores. When it got to Canada, there was at least one person that died from it. When it hit the USA, people became sick, but there were NO fatalities. I believe that's more due to the quality and speed of our private health care, versus the public health care that's prevalent in the other countries.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Originally posted by: Jadow
the cost of drugs has never been lower.

There are just newer and better drug available today that have high retail prices.

You take all the drug available in 1998 (not exactly the healthcare dark ages) and they are ALL generic today.

There is a short 7 year window for companies to make a profit on the drugs they spend billions to research and develop, then they go generic.

You look at comparative cost of drugs and quality / price, and the cost of drugs only always goes down because of this.

My solution is only partial, but it's rather simple.


The high cost to "research and develop" drugs is NOTHING compared to the amount they spend on marketing.

Prescription drugs should sell themselves. There should be absolutely no advertising or marketing of any kind for any of these products. Then, when 70% of the cost of expensive drugs goes away, the prices should drop accordingly.

 

[sonoma1993]

Originally posted by: nobody2you
Just to be clear, I think a country like the USA should have some form of universal health care. It's a shame that were printing endless dollars and we still have people in this country without medical insurance--I'am one of them. We can find money for war but for the people in this country, we can't. World is confusing.

Im agree with you nobody2you. At the end of this month, im no longer on my dad health insurance. I'll be 23 and still in college. My work doesnt offer no health insurnace for part time just for the full timers. I like my job, it works great with my current school schedule.
We are one of the richest countries in the world, but we cant offer everyone some kind of basic health insurance.

 

[mchammer]

Originally posted by: sonoma1993

Originally posted by: nobody2you
Just to be clear, I think a country like the USA should have some form of universal health care. It's a shame that were printing endless dollars and we still have people in this country without medical insurance--I'am one of them. We can find money for war but for the people in this country, we can't. World is confusing.

Im agree with you nobody2you. At the end of this month, im no longer on my dad health insurance. I'll be 23 and still in college. My work doesnt offer no health insurnace for part time just for the full timers. I like my job, it works great with my current school schedule.
We are one of the richest countries in the world, but we cant offer everyone some kind of basic health insurance.

You are eligable to continue receiving health insurance through COBRA. You will have to pay the premium yourself. The second and third years you can choose your own coverage if you want lower rates.

 

[DVK916]

This is what I support:

A system in which the goverment runs a health care plan, and their are also private plans. Each person can chose the goverent plan or accept credit that would vary depending on household size to be used on private health plan. This would be funded by taxes ofcourse.

This is a true story that I read in the local papers months ago:

A 21 year old boy with CVID who needs costly treatment won't get it because he has no insurance. He has no insurance because no one will insure him and because he can't work. He can't work because he needs treatment to work since CVID makes him to ill. The goverment won't do a damn thing to help him. His immune system is cripple so now he is at very high risk of developing cancer or other life threatening illnesses. He won't live many more years if he can't get treatment.

 

[Buttzilla]

Originally posted by: marvdmartian
Private health care, hands down. Why??

1. Faster health care. Doctors who are destined to only make X amount of dollars per year, no matter how hard they work, will only work to the minimum required amount. That's because they have no incentive (other than a personal work ethic) to do more than that. In the USA, with the health insurance I have through my employer, if I need an MRI done, it can usually be scheduled within a month, tops. In countries that have socialized (i.e., universal) health care, you might wait as SHORT a time period as 6 months, or as long as a year or more, just to get that MRI. God help you if you need surgery, and it's not an emergency.

2. Alongside with reason #1, better overall health care. My doctor has the incentive to work harder, to make more money. By steady application of a hectic (overwhelming) work schedule, they get their loans paid off (most doctors fact tens of thousands of dollars of student loans by the time they hit private practise) in a minimum period of time, and then it's pretty much pure gravy after that. Ever see a doctor over the age of 40, that wasn't driving a nice car??? Call it the stick and carrot approach to life. Dangle an incentive over a person's head, and they're more likely to work hard to get it. No incentive, why bother??

It's much like the reason why communism looks good on paper, but doesn't work in reality, unless you FORCE people to follow it. Everyone works for the embetterment of everyone else. Sounds great, right? Yeah, until joe schmoe over here decides that he's working harder than sam over there, who thinks he's too smart to do this menial labor, and ought to be put in charge, who's married to sue, who thinks she deserves nicer things in her house than joe's wife........and before you know it, you have the soviet style of communism, where everyone's equal to everyone else. Only thing is, you have some folks that are "more equal" than you, comrade, and they're going to punish you unless you follow the rules they've set up for everyone.....but themselves, of course!

People are jealous, lazy, slovenly.......did I mention lazy? If you have NO incentive to work harder, NO upward mobility, and NO chance of ever bettering your status in life, why would you want to work harder than everyone else? Chances are, you wouldn't. And before long, you're working LESS than the next guy, who notices it, and does less work themselves......and in no time, you're having to set standards for work.......a minimum amount of acceptable labor, in order to maintain any semblance of accomplishment. Makes sense, eh? :roll:


If nothing else, just look at what happened with the last respiratory ailment that came out of Asia, a couple years ago (sorry, I have no memory, and can't remember what it was called). In Asian countries, it killed people by the scores. When it got to Canada, there was at least one person that died from it. When it hit the USA, people became sick, but there were NO fatalities. I believe that's more due to the quality and speed of our private health care, versus the public health care that's prevalent in the other countries.

so i take it that it's an all or nothing proposition then???
either you get universal health care across the board but in doing so you'll most likely recieve inadequate care because of the lack of incentive for doctors.
while on the other hand, in private health care, you'll recieve prompt treatment but only to those who can pay the premiums then.

in the end, you just have to choose the lesser of two evils. great coverage to those you can afford it or slow but also mediocre coverage across the nation.

 

[mchammer]

has anyone noticed that this guy's user name is "buttzilla"?

 

[Jadow]

I was going to comment on the buttzilla username last night, but let it go. Anyways, I thhink it's a great name! I laughed when I first saw it

 

[ModerateRepZero]

to Butt:

it's not so much an all-or-nothing proposition as the consequences of favoring either quality (private health care) vs. quantity (universal health care). The problem of scarce resources makes tradeoffs inevitable.

 

[Reckoner]

Romney signs Health Insurance Bill


Now almost all uninsured people will have health insurance. Why can't more states do this?

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: chambersc

Originally posted by: Ornery
i assume that those in the higher tax bracket where bear the bulk of this burden.

Hillary's plan was to force businesses to pay for it. Great plan, eh? :roll:

...yeah, it is. you can't burden the worker with insurmountable bills while big business is reporting record profits.

What about businesses that are recording record losses?
Or small businesses? You can't punish the successful for being a success, and you can't let the failures off for failing.

This is why I would propose that we take American business out of the business of providing health care for their workers and families. Let everyone pay a percentage of their income (ALL income, not just wages) for health insurance. This way, everyone who has an income contributes.

and yet another reason for people not to work.

And don't think there won't be exceptions for the lower income workers. There are always exceptions.

 

[Kelemvor]

Take a look at Sweden. I think they have a governemnt health system and it works great. Might not be Sweden but I'm pretty sure that's what it is because my bro-in-law has a brother that lives there

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: Buttzilla
Higher Costs, Less Care

intesting article i found on the washington post.

touched on a few subject already mentioned here.

It may be interesting, but it means squat as it relates to this thread topic.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: Jadow
Just some talking points against universal health care.

1. There is no constitutional right to healthcare.
2. Why should healthy, responsible people, have to pay for the health care of obese, french fry eating slobs.
3. In every state, children under 18 are eligible for free government healthcare already.
4. No-one is turned away from the ER if they can't pay

I would also recommend you read the Cato Institute's healthcare section.

http://www.cato.org/healthcare/index.html

Why? Because no one is perfect. They made a choice with their life just as you did, no point in criticizing their life just because they arent as healthy as you.

And I have to pay for their choices? F That!

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Ornery
I can opt into or out of any heath care I choose to now. What choice do I have for opting out of that fvcking Social Security nightmare I didn't ask for in the first damn place?

Good question. What can I do to opt out of paying for that Iraq nightmare I didn't ask for in the first damn place?

so you don't want them deciding foreign affairs, but you do want them deciding healthcare issues?