Private Vs. Universal Health Care system

[CPA]

Originally posted by: DeathBUA

Originally posted by: Fenixgoon

Originally posted by: mchammer

Originally posted by: Ornery

1. Yep, now he wants the "government" to handle healthcare as well... great plan! :roll:

Well think of it this way, with Medicare, Medicaid and all the various laws governing group health insurance, they more or less are managing it anyway, and it can't get that much worse.

yes it can: bigger government = bigger beareaucracy = less efficient. if you think private care is bad, government healthcare will only make it worse.

america has the best healthcare in the world, though due to privitization, we don't have the best coverage.

medicare/medicaid/SS all need to be fixed. frankly, a 70+ year old SS system is NOT suitable for the modern economic situation

Not to bust your bubble.....BUT

In spite of all the money spent on health care in the US there is still a problem of access and quality(not just privatization)
Based on the World Health Organization (WHO) ranking 191 countries the US is # 1 in only one category.
That being: responsiveness of the health systems level and distributions (dignity, autonomy, confidentiality, prompt attention, quality of basic amenities, access to social support, networks during care and choice of provider)

huh? So we're No. 1 in prompt attention, quality of basic amenities (I assume this means basic care), privacy and choice, but we still have a problem of access?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Naustica
All I know is private insurance cost in this country is redicious. I'm paying almost $1000 a month on healthcare coverage for a family of four.

That cost would not change with socialized medicine, you would just be forcing other people to pay part of it for you.

 

[CPA]

And one last thing for all of you who want a government controlled system - you think the Patriot Act was a huge breach of your privacy rights, wait until Uncle Sam controls your health. I'm going to pull a "the sky is falling" liberal ploy here and say, once government gets their hands on your health it will only be a matter of time before you are implanted with one of those "health" microchips. bye-bye privacy.

 

[Dulanic]

I have quite varying opinions on this topic, it is something important to me as I have a life long disease. One thing that bothers me is morons who come in here and say do this and this and you'll be healthy. You know what, there ARE things out there that are not caused by how you eat or live your life. What bothers me currently is I was diagnosed when I was working for a certain company, and I am basically forced to stay there because of my health insurance needs, it is forcing me to not beable to do much with my life and that bothers me every day. People say oh other jobs have health insurance, but they all have atleast a 6 month pre-existing condition clause and I could never risk 6 months.

 

[LtPage1]

here's what it boils down to: private healthcare: better care, but only for those who can afford it. you could argue that it's much better, and way more efficient, and the government can help pay for poor peoples' care through social programs like medicare, etc. universal public healthcare: less efficient, lower quality care, but everyone gets care.

 

[foghorn67]

Aren't they having budget problems? Or was that another country?

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CPA
And one last thing for all of you who want a government controlled system - you think the Patriot Act was a huge breach of your privacy rights, wait until Uncle Sam controls your health. I'm going to pull a "the sky is falling" liberal ploy here and say, once government gets their hands on your health it will only be a matter of time before you are implanted with one of those "health" microchips. bye-bye privacy.

You have to get the Libs right though, CPA. If Bush was a democrat, they would love both him and the Patriot Act.
I won't go as far as to say microchips (although RFIDs are looking a bit scary these days), but I do think there's no question that socialized medicine would be the end of privacy in America. And the end of most freedoms. I, for one, take perfectly good care of my own health (6'2" 180, in the gym 4 times a week), I do not want the government taking over it and telling me what to eat, what I can't eat, or what drugs I must take, etc.

Here's a tip for everyone: we already do have socialized medicine in the US. At this very moment, the federal government pays for more than 50% of all health costs in the US. State governments pay about another 20%. That's right. And we HATE it. Consider that. The more socialized our health care system has gotten over the years, the more expensive it has become and the more we hate it. And some of you fools want to go all the way....

 

[fitzov]

The FDA is already a large, socialist, aspect of the health care system. They regulate drugs and procedures but not prices. Allowing them to regulate prices would go a long way towards making health care affordable for poorer individuals. We might also consider that medical insurance is itself a huge conglomerate that a lot of capital is tied-up in. You might argue that by eliminating the insurance company you would free-up capital that could be invested in research. You would also eliminate the political influence of such conglomerates.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: miniMUNCH
2. Drug manufacturers are not allowed to advertise perscription only drugs in the media. Some of the major drugs out there...30% of their cost is due to marketing expenses. This is completely idiotic. Advertise and market drugs to the doctors via approved communication channels, not to patients. I think the FDA and the medical oversight system mentioned above could set up a medical liason group w/ a website to discuss and clearly present the facts about each drug to make it easier for doctors to get the facts and share their thoughts/experiences with other doctors.

These two items alone would reduce healthcare costs by quite a bit...I'd say 25%. My mom has been working in health insurance for 20 years. And I have about 10 friends or family members who are doctors...they all think 1 and 2 are good ideas.

not really. the heavily advertised drugs are typically less expensive per course than non-advertised drugs. why is that? because more people buy them, and economies of scale kick in to drop down the per unit cost of the ungodly amounts of r&d that need to be done to get a new drug out the door. now, if doctors are prescribing drugs that patients don't need that is a problem, but that isn't the majority of circumstances.

and you can't reverse the patient-empowerment trend that led to this.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: sonoma1993

Originally posted by: nobody2you
Just to be clear, I think a country like the USA should have some form of universal health care. It's a shame that were printing endless dollars and we still have people in this country without medical insurance--I'am one of them. We can find money for war but for the people in this country, we can't. World is confusing.

Im agree with you nobody2you. At the end of this month, im no longer on my dad health insurance. I'll be 23 and still in college. My work doesnt offer no health insurnace for part time just for the full timers. I like my job, it works great with my current school schedule.
We are one of the richest countries in the world, but we cant offer everyone some kind of basic health insurance.

you can't get group care through the school?

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Romney signs Health Insurance Bill


Now almost all uninsured people will have health insurance. Why can't more states do this?

i dunno, but that was one of the worst written articles from a major newspaper i've ever read.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Jadow
Just some talking points against universal health care.

1. There is no constitutional right to healthcare.
2. Why should healthy, responsible people, have to pay for the health care of obese, french fry eating slobs.
3. In every state, children under 18 are eligible for free government healthcare already.
4. No-one is turned away from the ER if they can't pay

I would also recommend you read the Cato Institute's healthcare section.

http://www.cato.org/healthcare/index.html

I already pay for obese slobs. In fact, I pay twice. I pay once for my own health insurance, and then I pay again with the medicare taxes...to provide health care for obese slobs with no jobs or insurance.

Yeah, no one is turned away when they can't pay...but when they don't pay, because they're bums with no insurance that can't pay, the costs are absorbed by the hospital. The hospital then passes those costs on to me indirectly, by raising the amount they charge my insurance company. Again, I pay for the bums.

Why should healthy responsible people pay for irresponsible people's expenses? I don't know, ask those that put together our current system that question.

The best arguement for universal healthcare is that our current system is a total half ass hybrid. It already is a public system...that double punishes the responsible. And its beauacracy for the sake of itself, a black hole that sucks up funds and shoots back out 10% of its intake. Which incidentally is an arguement against universal healthcare as well.

The best arguement against public healthcare is that the federal government is a lumbering incompetence factory, it basically turns everything it touches into sh|t. One of the key failures of democracy is the failure of compromise. Instead of a system that some people hate and some people love, we get a system everyone kind of hates. Instead of one system or the other, each one having its disadvantages...we get a system that has the disadvantages of both. That way both groups can come home and claim victory, when in reality its more left everyone lost.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Ornery
I can opt into or out of any heath care I choose to now. What choice do I have for opting out of that fvcking Social Security nightmare I didn't ask for in the first damn place?

Good question. What can I do to opt out of paying for that Iraq nightmare I didn't ask for in the first damn place?

so you don't want them deciding foreign affairs, but you do want them deciding healthcare issues?

My point was only: in government, one always pays for things they don't agree with.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Jadow
Just some talking points against universal health care.

1. There is no constitutional right to healthcare.
2. Why should healthy, responsible people, have to pay for the health care of obese, french fry eating slobs.
3. In every state, children under 18 are eligible for free government healthcare already.
4. No-one is turned away from the ER if they can't pay

I would also recommend you read the Cato Institute's healthcare section.

http://www.cato.org/healthcare/index.html

I already pay for obese slobs. In fact, I pay twice. I pay once for my own health insurance, and then I pay again with the medicare taxes...to provide health care for obese slobs with no jobs or insurance.

Yeah, no one is turned away when they can't pay...but when they don't pay, because they're bums with no insurance that can't pay, the costs are absorbed by the hospital. The hospital then passes those costs on to me indirectly, by raising the amount they charge my insurance company. Again, I pay for the bums.

Why should healthy responsible people pay for irresponsible people's expenses? I don't know, ask those that put together our current system that question.

The best arguement for universal healthcare is that our current system is a total half ass hybrid. It already is a public system...that double punishes the responsible. And its beauacracy for the sake of itself, a black hole that sucks up funds and shoots back out 10% of its intake. Which incidentally is an arguement against universal healthcare as well.

The best arguement against public healthcare is that the federal government is a lumbering incompetence factory, it basically turns everything it touches into sh|t. One of the key failures of democracy is the failure of compromise. Instead of a system that some people hate and some people love, we get a system everyone kind of hates. Instead of one system or the other, each one having its disadvantages...we get a system that has the disadvantages of both. That way both groups can come home and claim victory, when in reality its more left everyone lost.

true that. the whole thing is a ginormous clusterfuck. all because the government put in a wage ceiling during WWII so employers started competing using benefits.

honestly, it is hard to imagine that a single payer system could be any less efficient. talk to doctors assistants about how many different plans they have to keep track of, how much time it takes them, etc, and you'll start to realize how enormous the costs of a multipayer system are. the paper pushing costs are such that eliminating them would free up enough money to provide $5000 (iirc, it's been a year since i've looked) of medical care to every uninsured person in the country, which is higher than the average amount spent on medical care per person in this country.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: Vic The more socialized our health care system has gotten over the years, the more expensive it has become and the more we hate it. And some of you fools want to go all the way....

because none of the underlying costs have gone up whatsoever :roll:

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: CPA

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: Ornery
I can opt into or out of any heath care I choose to now. What choice do I have for opting out of that fvcking Social Security nightmare I didn't ask for in the first damn place?

Good question. What can I do to opt out of paying for that Iraq nightmare I didn't ask for in the first damn place?

so you don't want them deciding foreign affairs, but you do want them deciding healthcare issues?

My point was only: in government, one always pays for things they don't agree with.

Wrong + wrong != right

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: Vic The more socialized our health care system has gotten over the years, the more expensive it has become and the more we hate it. And some of you fools want to go all the way....

because none of the underlying costs have gone up whatsoever :roll:

Of course they have. People always want more for less. Insisting on the impossible is the underlying premise of every ideology.

 

[Reckoner]

Why can't anything ever come easy in this country? Sometimes it's nice to have one less thing to worry about. I believe the Massachusetts bill is a great piece of legislation. It should do wonders for healthcare in this state. Stop being so damn greedy people.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: Naustica
All I know is private insurance cost in this country is redicious. I'm paying almost $1000 a month on healthcare coverage for a family of four.

Supply of doctors is relatively fixed. It doesn't grow at the pace of the population because of the monopoly the American Medical Association has on restricting the number of medical schools in the US.

Let's say we implement this so-called universal healthcare. That would essentially mean you increase the demand for healthcare.

Supply fixed + increase in demand = skyrocket in prices.

Universal healthcare means forcing high taxpaying residents to pay for low/no taxpaying residents. It's a really bad idea.

 

[JS80]

Any universal healthcare will only make doctors, nurses and beaureacrats richer.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Why can't anything ever come easy in this country? Sometimes it's nice to have one less thing to worry about. I believe the Massachusetts bill is a great piece of legislation. It should do wonders for healthcare in this state. Stop being so damn greedy people.

Who is being greedy? You want the middle classes of this country to pay for the healthcare for the poor when the middle classes can barely afford their own healthcare. If anything, YOU are the one being greedy, trying to steal what is not freely given.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: JS80
Any universal healthcare will only make doctors, nurses and beaureacrats richer.

Whereas private healthcare makes the CEOs of Big Pharma and Big Insurance richer. Pick your poison. At least the doctors and nurses do some good.

 

[CPA]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: JS80
Any universal healthcare will only make doctors, nurses and beaureacrats richer.

Whereas private healthcare makes the CEOs of Big Pharma and Big Insurance richer. Pick your poison. At least the doctors and nurses do some good.

and pharma doesn't? I hate that argument.

I will agree on Big Insurance though. My plan is different than most. For basic care, I believe we should go to a cash-based system, eliminating the insurance companies. Insurance should be for intermediary or catastrophic care. Let doctor's compete for your dollar.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: EatSpam

Originally posted by: JS80
Any universal healthcare will only make doctors, nurses and beaureacrats richer.

Whereas private healthcare makes the CEOs of Big Pharma and Big Insurance richer. Pick your poison. At least the doctors and nurses do some good.

It is EXTREMELY unlikely that socialized medicine would change that. It hasn't in Canada and Europe. Quite the opposite, it will probably make them even richer, as they will now have captured markets.

 

[Reckoner]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: PaulNEPats
Why can't anything ever come easy in this country? Sometimes it's nice to have one less thing to worry about. I believe the Massachusetts bill is a great piece of legislation. It should do wonders for healthcare in this state. Stop being so damn greedy people.

Who is being greedy? You want the middle classes of this country to pay for the healthcare for the poor when the middle classes can barely afford their own healthcare. If anything, YOU are the one being greedy, trying to steal what is not freely given.

Healthcare should be freely given. What the hell kind've world have we come to when this is not the case? `