President to Address the Nation.....again

[senseamp]

Obama will veto Boner's "plan."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...eal-with-warning-of-deep-economic-crisis.html

 

[woolfe9999]

In the breakdown towards the end.

I don't see it in there. Perhaps I'm just missing it.

 

[Fern]

Keep deluding yourself. You really think Geitner doesn't know and hasn't been already using the same tricks Rubin used, of course you don't he's a democratic appointee so he must be lying. If you scream a little louder, curse a little more and throw in a few more @'s maybe someone will believe you.

At this point I'm hoping we miss the Aug 2 deadline so all you younger people will realize that 99.99999999999999% of the time politicians (or others) start talking about a 'crisis' is FUD, politically manufactured drama and FUD. I lived through too many instances, the 'boy has cried wolf' far too many times.

Go back and read about 1995.

And your idea that rolling over debt creates cash without increasing total debt is total lulz

Just because you 'don't get it' doesn't mean it isn't true. As a financial professional, you cannot expect me to take you seriously, particularly as you offer no specifics to counter the facts/explanations I have previously provided you.

Here, let me help you, please read this explanation of accounting maneuvers and debt rollover techniques that you deny would work. These were measures employed during the 1995 failure to raise the debt ceiling:

https://www.tsp.gov/PDF/formspubs/GAO-AIMD-96-130.pdf

At the bottom of page 3, you will find the below - it is an exactly what I have described - a description of debt rollover by SS (a trust fund) to get cash. I.e., that which you keep denying for mere lack of understanding. Don't take my word for it, it's the dang GAO explaining it:

Also, when government trust funds redeem Treasury securities
to pay for benefits and expenses, the debt subject to the debt ceiling is lowered, and thus, Treasury can sell additional securities to the public to raise cash.

More stuff you may want to look at:

http://www.gao.gov/products/AIMD-96-130

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/presenting-treasurys-options-continue-pretending-us-solvent

Edit: Forgot to add that the so-called "debunk" you refer to is so uninformed and silly I've never bothered to address it but will do so now. The argument goes that you can't rollover debt because to get the money to pay off the old (e.g., SS) debt you must first borrow new debt, and thus, theoretically you have, even if for one nanosecond, exceeded the debt limit. To hold that belief one must be COMPLETELY unfamiliar with accounting, and likely have NEVER seen a debt instrument.

In accounting we do not, nor have we ever, taken the time of the transaction into account. It's unimportant, we don't care, it doesn't matter (unless we're referring to 11:59 PM versus 12:01 AM). We only record the date (the day and year), that's it. So, you can begin the day, then roll over debt - hypothetically exceeding the limit - but at the end of the day, which is ALL that counts, you're within the limit.

Now as to debt instruments - they DON'T list the time, they ONLY list the DAY/DATE.

The "hypothetical" debunking of debt roll-over is complete and utter nonsense; drivel conceived by lay persons with little-to-no understanding

Fern

 

[senseamp]

Boehner can't even pass his "plan" in the House. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/26/house-gop-revolts-against-boehner-debt-plan/
Yikes. I guess they can vote for Cut, Run, and Blame plan now

 

[xj0hnx]

Just because you 'don't get it' doesn't mean it isn't true. As a financial professional, you cannot expect me to take you seriously, particularly as you offer no specifics to counter the facts/explanations I have previously provided you.

But dude, he said lulz, that means serious business.

 

[Fern]

Boehner can't even pass his "plan" in the House. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/jul/26/house-gop-revolts-against-boehner-debt-plan/
Yikes. I guess they can vote for Cut, Run, and Blame plan now

Apparently, the vote isn't until tomorrow so we'll see then. Maybe he'll be able to pick up enough Dem support to get it passed.

Otherwise, I really don't see any purpose for this Balanced Budget Amendment. Nor do I see why Dems need to oppose it. The thing is NEVER going to get ratified by the states. I give it a whopping 0% chance of 3/4ths of states approving it.

The whole idea is a big waste of time.

Fern

 

[senseamp]

Apparently, the vote isn't until tomorrow so we'll see then. Maybe he'll be able to pick up enough Dem support to get it passed.

Otherwise, I really don't see any purpose for this Balanced Budget Amendment. Nor do I see why Dems need to oppose it. The thing is NEVER going to get ratified by the states. I give it a whopping 0% chance of 3/4ths of states approving it.

The whole idea is a big waste of time.

Fern

Republicans want to vote for it. They don't care if it has zero chance of passing. They would rather vote for it than vote for an actual plan to avoid a financial calamity.

 

[JSt0rm]

whats going on is the babyboomer push to deflate the money supply. They want to pump up their retirement accounts at the expense of the younger generations. The babyboomers on a whole are the worst thing to ever happen to this country.

 

[her209]

Apparently, the vote isn't until tomorrow so we'll see then. Maybe he'll be able to pick up enough Dem support to get it passed.

Otherwise, I really don't see any purpose for this Balanced Budget Amendment. Nor do I see why Dems need to oppose it. The thing is NEVER going to get ratified by the states. I give it a whopping 0% chance of 3/4ths of states approving it.

The whole idea is a big waste of time.

Fern

I think Pelosi will hold the caucus together and not get any Democrats to vote for it unless Boehner pushes the debt limit past 2012 and possibly add in the revenue raisers. Most, if not all, of the moderate (Blue Dog) Democrats got wiped out last election.

 

[Darwin333]

Keep deluding yourself. You really think Geitner doesn't know and hasn't been already using the same tricks Rubin used, of course you don't he's a democratic appointee so he must be lying. If you scream a little louder, curse a little more and throw in a few more @'s maybe someone will believe you.

And your idea that rolling over debt creates cash without increasing total debt is total lulz

Social security debt can be rolled into Treasury notes that then create cash but do not add to the official .gov debt ceiling tally.

lulz

Edit: Not reading 10 pages to see what yall are actually arguing about, just pointing out that it can in fact be done. I am not even saying that it is a good idea or a solution, just that it is possible.

 

[Fern]

I think Pelosi will hold the caucus together and not get any Democrats to vote for it unless Boehner pushes the debt limit past 2012 and possibly add in the revenue raisers. Most, if not all, of the moderate (Blue Dog) Democrats got wiped out last election.

Good point.

Fern

 

[piasabird]

Call the Bluff and default. Only through pain, will the United States learn its lesson. This is how life works.

 

[senseamp]

Call the Bluff and default.

:thumbsup:
Yep, just go into shutdown.
Let small government supporters experience small government till they cry uncle.

 

[Nebor]

:thumbsup:
Yep, just go into shutdown.
Let small government supporters experience small government till they cry uncle.

Meh, I could live indefinitely without being paid. A lot of the junior soldiers with families could not though.

Politically I'd love to see a shut down. In reality I'd hate to see a bunch of military families fall on hard times as a result. There's no talk of exempting .mil from the shutdown pay freeze is there? What about currently deployed soldiers?

 

[shira]

Ummm, you do realize how insanely stupid you are, correct?

You are sitting here hoping "the U.S. goes into default... the market crashes and the U.S. economy goes into a second severe recession."

And you're trying to label "the other side" as insane?

Grow up.

I'm looking at the long term. In the short term - for the next two or three years - things would be horrible if a default occurs. But in the long-run, with the far-right totally discredited and marginalized, a working government capable of meaningful compromise will be possible, and a better future can occur.

There are no quick fixes to our economic problems, but the death of the tea party will be a damn good start.

 

[senseamp]

Meh, I could live indefinitely without being paid. A lot of the junior soldiers with families could not though.

Politically I'd love to see a shut down. In reality I'd hate to see a bunch of military families fall on hard times as a result. There's no talk of exempting .mil from the shutdown pay freeze is there? What about currently deployed soldiers?

If you would love to see a shut down, you should love it in reality, not just politically. Even if military members are exempt, there will be plenty of pain to go around.

 

[Nebor]

If you would love to see a shut down, you should love it in reality, not just politically. Even if military members are exempt, there will be plenty of pain to go around.

Oh man would I love to see the military exempt but DoD\DA civilians just stop showing up to work. It would be like a dream.

Amazingly we pay all the contracts up front, so the contractors WILL still show up to work if there's a shutdown, even though they mostly do nothing anyway.

As far as pain to go around, we were already prepared for a full shut down a few months ago. We had orders published, a plan to keep things going, etc.

 

[Thump553]

whats going on is the babyboomer push to deflate the money supply. They want to pump up their retirement accounts at the expense of the younger generations. The babyboomers on a whole are the worst thing to ever happen to this country.

Did that even seem to make any sense to you when you posted it??

First of all, either a default or credit rating downgrade will cause inflation (via higher interest rates) not deflation.

Secondly we boomers typically have our Keoughs, IRAs, etc. invested in equities (stocks) which will likely tank or bonds/debt instruments-which will decline in value as interest rates rise.

I suppose a severe enough depression with the collapse of government safety nets could cause deflation, but that's because us boomers would be selling off assets at firesale prices to stay alive. Hardly an investment strategy.

Please elighten me as to our boomers plan, as I'd love to cash in on it. Frankly I see nothing but more plan ahead for the little guy/little investor.

 

[Jhhnn]

whats going on is the babyboomer push to deflate the money supply. They want to pump up their retirement accounts at the expense of the younger generations. The babyboomers on a whole are the worst thing to ever happen to this country.

Standard desperation of failed logic from the Right, trying to frame class warfare in generational terms.

Deflation benefits only the extremely wealthy, because they're the only ones with liquidity in a debt/deflation spiral, from which they will extract every drop of economic advantage that they can when the ROTW is desperate to have it.

In the early 1930's, those who emerged from 1929 still in possession of great wealth used it to drive the rest of the economy into the dirt, simply by hoarding it. Whole segments of rural america were reduced to barter, because credit had collapsed & cash was very, very scarce indeed.

 

[Doppel]

At this point I'm hoping we miss the Aug 2 deadline so all you younger people will realize that 99.99999999999999% of the time politicians (or others) start talking about a 'crisis' is FUD, politically manufactured drama and FUD. I lived through too many instances, the 'boy has cried wolf' far too many times

Yep. I can tell you this, if I go to bed on August 1st and they haven't got a deal I won't be waking up at the crack of dawn to watch the markets implode, it won't happen. This is a theater show, they are just putting on a play for us.

 

[JD50]

Standard desperation of failed logic from the Right, trying to frame class warfare in generational terms.

Deflation benefits only the extremely wealthy, because they're the only ones with liquidity in a debt/deflation spiral, from which they will extract every drop of economic advantage that they can when the ROTW is desperate to have it.

In the early 1930's, those who emerged from 1929 still in possession of great wealth used it to drive the rest of the economy into the dirt, simply by hoarding it. Whole segments of rural america were reduced to barter, because credit had collapsed & cash was very, very scarce indeed.

Yes Jhhnn, Jst0rm is a rabid right winger...

What a moron.

 

[Throckmorton]

1. There was a majority of votes for it, but GOP blocked it with filibuster and the Lieberman sell out.
2. Saving the country from going into the great depression for $666B, which is a measly 5% of our GDP, is a bargain of the millenium. If you think a second great depression would have cost only 2-3M jobs, you are simply delusional.
3. Bush added debt in time of prosperity while creating a huge economic mess. Obama added debt to clean up Bush's mess. Big difference.
4. Look at Japan. It still hasn't recovered from its housing bubble bursting. If you think simply saving banks is enough to avoid a depression, again, that is your own personal delusion.

This is what I tell ProfJohn EVERY time he posts that bullshit. He's just a moron.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yes Jhhnn, Jst0rm is a rabid right winger...

What a moron.

When you spout right winger generational warfare bullshit, you might be mistaken for one.

Here- read about how you're being used & manipulated-

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/the-new-let-them-eat-cake-20110713

 

[JSt0rm]

When you spout right winger generational warfare bullshit, you might be mistaken for one.

Here- read about how you're being used & manipulated-

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/blogs/taibblog/the-new-let-them-eat-cake-20110713

I agree with you. Now you read

http://cornellsun.com/node/35473

http://www.superseventies.com/worstgen.html

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/21/the-worst-generation/

http://makeitso57.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/baby-boomers-the-worst-generation/

 

[Jhhnn]

I agree with you. Now you read

http://cornellsun.com/node/35473

http://www.superseventies.com/worstgen.html

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/02/21/the-worst-generation/

http://makeitso57.wordpress.com/2008/06/12/baby-boomers-the-worst-generation/

It's the same bullshit- putting class warfare into generational terms, blaming the middle guys who found ways to live good lives rather than the financial elite who are sucking the lifeblood out of the economy.

It wasn't boomers who embraced Ronnie, set us on our current path, but rather the remnants of the greatest generation & the tweeners- those born too late to be of age for WW2...

It was their faith in all things Republican that set the stage for the greed of a small segment of boomers...

And it's the same faith among gen-Xers & younger cheering it on today. After the latest economic debacle, most boomers have little more than debt. Want to know the people suffering most from unemployment, who are having the worst time finding new jobs? Women over 50...