Premade NAS Expensive Why?

[Jeffspears]

I have spent about every free minute for the last 3 days researching home file servers and I keep on getting deeper and deeper and one question brings another and a never endless stream of questions.

I was thinking of getting a Synology DS1512+ but I noticed it's price and most premade NAS prices are expensive though they are using really low CPUs. I know they don't need the CPU power but something got to give.

Why am I spending a $500-$900 (Diskless) on a device that can't even transcode movies. Does it provide superior hardware reliability? Does it have a better Raid controller? is their motherboard are of superior quality?

I don't know what justifies their price?

One more thing I'd like to get answered too, what if the motherboard on the NAS drive fails one day, what will happen to all my data?

I hope i`ll get some answers, cause really this is driving me nuts, I think the decision of what to buy for a file server has been harder than my gaming rig by 1000x

 

[Broheim]

you also pay for the software that comes with the NAS and the user experience, building your own NAS is cheap and easy, but using it is an entirely different matter. you pay for the plug in and forget experience rather than the plug in -> doesn't work -> back to the drawing board -> rinse and repeat until it actually works experience.

to answer you question about motherboard failure, that shouldn't affect your drives, but ymmv.

 

[Nothinman]

Effectively you're paying for the brand, Q&A and management software. For some reason creating a share in Windows is hard and scary but doing the exact same thing via some 3rd party web interface is easy even though they ask the same questions.

If the motherboard dies it shouldn't affect your data unless it silently corrupts writes to disk somehow, but that's true of any piece of hardware.

 

[Jeffspears]

I`ll try to get my head around a $500 worth of a modified linux OS and plugins which from what I could see are sometimes offered for free and I have visited most NAS forums the support isn't 10/10 mostly good ppl helping out others.

I am free to go build my own but I don't know why I keep on hearing a scream of NAS are very reliable that I just don't hear from windows, which if I am not mistaken in windows your raid is as good as your raid controller which some reach $300. I need to get a controller since I am after Raid 6.

So the way I see my options are as follows:

1. NAS Synology DS1812+/DS1512+

2. Built WHS server

3. Built Freenas Server

what would you put your 2 cents on? and what would you recommend as a Raid Controller card supporting 6 Drives Raid 6?

I have come up with the idea of sharing the NAS to my gaming PC and leaving the PC on just to be able to stream video to my ipad using Air Video, not a healthy work around but that's the best that I could come up with I am no fan of changing all video formats.

I loved the anand file server that I once read in one of his posts G620 cheap, low power and could handle the live conversions.

Thanks for the help guys I really appreciate it. really this topic has consumed me so much, that I have yet to organize other stuff like the router and access points, I can't wait to get it behind me

 

[thestrangebrew1]

I went with a WHS 2011 home server. It's build around a G620, Biostar H61 mobo and 4 gbs g skill RAM and antec earthwatts 430w psu. Oh and a 1tb HDD and 2tb ext. HD. This is tucked into a cheap Rosewill case. I got the cpu, mobo and RAM in a combo on NE that I've seen prtty regularly as a shell shocker the past 2 mos for about $176.99 or something like that. For $250 roughly, I was able to build a file/media server that works pretty flawlessly. Any issues that I've had so far has been user error on my part as I'm a noob to networking administration. I love it though. I'm learning alot.

 

[Jeffspears]

Amen to that, see it's not hard to build a file server and the equipment sure doesn't cost much either. For $250 someone could build a much better performing system than a NAS, I don't know where the money is going in a NAS and with the number of products and custom built Power suppy/motherboards I am sure they are getting it even cheaper and yet it's sold as a high end computer.

 

[KentState]

I faced this challenge a few months ago decided for the Synology DS1511+. The biggest issues I had was finding a decent RAID controller plus computer did not save enough money compared to an all in one solution. Also, powering a desktop was more costly than the NAS from what I saw. The biggest cost in the end is hard drives.

 

[Jeffspears]

Yeah I feel in love with the Synology, the only downfall was streaming and I can't blame them since it's apple's restrictions that's causing this whole mess.

really just need a push and I am there

 

[VirtualLarry]

If you can build your own, IMHO, do it. It's a LOT cheaper than a premade, expecially when it comes to higher capacities.

The only valid reason to get a NAS is if you get a single-drive unit, then it's not worth the extra hardware costs to build your own.

 

[NP Complete]

I'm in the same boat of Jeffspears - I like the synology, but the cost is a lot higher than a more capably self-built server.

I think the question that needs to be asked is: how much do you value your time & reliability of a device. I always used to build my own systems, especially when I was a poor college student (and just out of college) because it was a lot cheaper and I had a lot of spare time.

Now adays, I find myself gravitating to pre-built systems with warranties. Building systems and configuring systems is fun, but it's often the last thing I want to do after spending all day programming and troubleshooting at work. I still like trying new builds, OS's and services, but my tolerance for the "oh crap, it broke" or the "wtf isn't this working" and the associated time with those issues a lot lower these days.

My basic rule of thumb is: I value my time at home @ approximately $20/hr these days. I guess how much time I think it'll take me to setup and maintain the device, and if the price difference between dyi and a pre-built (& warrantied) device is less than my estimate, I go for the pre-built device. Obviously I'm flexible - if the new device/system is fun, I'll probably value my time at a lesser rate. In the past, when I didn't have a job, I obvioulsy valued my time at a lesser rate.

 

[zuffy]

The premade ones are so compact and easy to use. If I want to build something similar in ITX format, it will not be cheap either. Though, it would be more powerful.

 

[truckerCLOCK]

The premade ones are so compact and easy to use. If I want to build something similar in ITX format, it will not be cheap either. Though, it would be more powerful.

I built a FreeNAS box outta spare parts, with 10TB of storage that sits in a Raidmax ITX0907BP case which is 5.5" x 9.5" x 11.5". Here are the specs.

ASROCK E350M1 - $70 open box Newegg
Gskill ram 4GB (2 x 2GB) - used but lets say $30 if new
5- WD20EARS 2TB HDD - bought 3 @ $79/each last yr, 2 @ $119.
picoPSU-150-XT PowerSupply - $38 for PSU , $40 powerbrick
Raidmax ITX0907BP - $40

So for under $200 (minus the drives) you can build a compact/powerful NAS that uses very little power 24w.

 

[Emulex]

proliant microserver $200
8gb ECC $60
P410/256 BBWC $149 (ebay)
hp nc360t $49
hacksaw for above nic $1
4 Hitachi ultrastar 2TB (219 each)
hacked ACPI+SLIC bios $0 gives you 6 more ports - say for ZIL/DOM
SLC usb stick $60 (hp brand)
esxi5 (everything works, grab the hp usb stick creator)

vcenter5,pfsense,2008R2 (AD/SMB/ISCSI TARGET/NFS),veeam, CMC,etc

You can build a device that can run core services at your (home,office) for a long time. I chose to use two constellation SAS drives 1TB (nearline) since sas is superior to sata and they were only $99 a pop new. 2 of them.

you could do a P400 without BBWC for $25 - $75 for a new battery - that works fine as well.

you could just use one nic - but why not use that other 1x port? pfsense multi-wan router.

Too slow for dedupe/compression but quite fine to do alot of tasks - i plan to put it behind a small SUA2200 with a UX40 battery to give it a little runtime in case of a short power outage.

 

[dma0991]

The only reason that I would go with a premade NAS is the interface of the device and to compact size. I don't like for the fact that some NAS tends to have their own proprietary formatting or RAID method, if the device fails a few years from now, I could only depend on the same device that they might not sell anymore or a similar but newer model that I'd have to fork out just to retrieve my data.

Since I have an E-350 lying around, I'd rather make it myself when the need arises.

 

[Jeffspears]

I think the question that needs to be asked is: how much do you value your time & reliability of a device. I always used to build my own systems, especially when I was a poor college student (and just out of college) because it was a lot cheaper and I had a lot of spare time.

Now adays, I find myself gravitating to pre-built systems with warranties. Building systems and configuring systems is fun, but it's often the last thing I want to do after spending all day programming and troubleshooting at work. I still like trying new builds, OS's and services, but my tolerance for the "oh crap, it broke" or the "wtf isn't this working" and the associated time with those issues a lot lower these days.

My basic rule of thumb is: I value my time at home @ approximately $20/hr these days. I guess how much time I think it'll take me to setup and maintain the device, and if the price difference between dyi and a pre-built (& warrantied) device is less than my estimate, I go for the pre-built device. Obviously I'm flexible - if the new device/system is fun, I'll probably value my time at a lesser rate. In the past, when I didn't have a job, I obvioulsy valued my time at a lesser rate.

+1, your right I do value reliability and most exportantly time, I think I know what I must do now.

Thanks for the suggested setups guys I`ll write them down for future reference, some stuff never gets old.

 

[fixbsod]

Can you expand more on the streaming issues? I am thinking about getting a diskstation so am interested in any issues it has.

Yeah I feel in love with the Synology, the only downfall was streaming and I can't blame them since it's apple's restrictions that's causing this whole mess.

really just need a push and I am there

 

[taltamir]

I have spent about every free minute for the last 3 days researching home file servers and I keep on getting deeper and deeper and one question brings another and a never endless stream of questions.

I was thinking of getting a Synology DS1512+ but I noticed it's price and most premade NAS prices are expensive though they are using really low CPUs. I know they don't need the CPU power but something got to give.

I don't know, why ARE you paying that?

Why do people buy a dell when you can build a superior PC for less than half the price?

Basically it amounts to:
1. Some people will not do things themselves for some reason or another
2. The person doing those things for them needs to sell it for enough money to turn a profit.

The end result is horribly overpriced.
For a NAS starter who doesn't want to run a full server OS, see http://www.freenas.org/

 

[Broheim]

I don't know, why ARE you paying that?

Why do people buy a dell when you can build a superior PC for less than half the price?

Basically it amounts to:
1. Some people will not do things themselves for some reason or another
2. The person doing those things for them needs to sell it for enough money to turn a profit.

The end result is horribly overpriced.
For a NAS starter who doesn't want to run a full server OS, see http://www.freenas.org/

eventhough freeBSD generally has the best hardware support of all the BSDs in my experience, it's still notoriously picky about hardware and for someone without experience with UNIX-like operating systems it can be quite a daunting task fixing any problems that might occur.

 

[taltamir]

eventhough freeBSD generally has the best hardware support of all the BSDs in my experience, it's still notoriously picky about hardware and for someone without experience with UNIX-like operating systems it can be quite a daunting task fixing any problems that might occur.

How are you going to fix any potential problem on a closed prebuilt NAS? you can't.

And there are many alternatives. And you could always go with a full linux or solaris server.

Or you could just pay for the horribly overpriced stuff. It is your choice and there is no universally wrong answer.

 

[Broheim]

How are you going to fix any potential problem on a closed prebuilt NAS? you can't.

And there are many alternatives. And you could always go with a full linux or solaris server.

Or you could just pay for the horribly overpriced stuff. It is your choice and there is no universally wrong answer.

it's called warranty...

I like Unix-like operating systems as much as the next guy, I'm even hoping to get into the mainframe field, but I also realise that Linux/BSD/etc. only means free if you don't value your time and energy.

 

[taltamir]

it's called warranty...

you said

with UNIX-like operating systems it can be quite a daunting task fixing any problems that might occur.

As in, get your data back.

Fixing a hardware issue identical for unix, linux, windows, or solaris. Replace parts until its fixed (its usually the mobo)

If your OS went bonkers, you can reformat it yourself... you don't need a warranty for that. There is nothing daunting about it either.

And heck, with ZFS you can reinstall the OS/install a DIFFERENT OS that is compatible with ZFS and then just type
#zpool import -f <name>
bam, its there. In fact, I tested that out specifically.

Or move the HDDs to a different, working computer and do that.

The warranty is not going to get your data back, ever. It means sending back the whole thing and getting back a re-certified thing that has no data on it.

 

[Jeffspears]

Why do people buy a dell when you can build a superior PC for less than half the price?

Basically it amounts to:
1. Some people will not do things themselves for some reason or another
2. The person doing those things for them needs to sell it for enough money to turn a profit.

The end result is horribly overpriced.
For a NAS starter who doesn't want to run a full server OS, see http://www.freenas.org/

Why do corporations with high paid IT experts go and buy premade stuff? Why don't they build it themselves?

To my argument, prebuilt PCs could be overpriced about ~10-20% which is acceptable to most (excluding some gaming rigs)

However in the premade NAS the hardware overpricing is definitely way higher than 100% , for my sake I hope that this overpricing is going into high quality capacitors for the power supply, motherboard hell maybe some gold plated wires but something that would make these device more reliable.

Can you expand more on the streaming issues? I am thinking about getting a diskstation so am interested in any issues it has.

I could see how my line would confuse some ppl, you don't have to worry diskstation does very well as a media server you won't have a problem streaming HD video. The thing I am talking about is only related to apple products. See apple loves to make stuff difficult some times, in this case they have done so by refusing some video encoding like AVI to run on their iPad or iPhone so ppl go to a lot of hassle to find a workaround for those. Which is usually having them being converted to mp4 and streamed to their device, however most prebuilt NAS device including disk station don’t convert the video (basically because of lack of CPU power). Remember this is only none mp4 files and only Apple products issue, so don’t let this scare you away you`ll see this with all NASes on the market.

 

[Broheim]

you said

As in, get your data back.

Fixing a hardware issue identical for unix, linux, windows, or solaris. Replace parts until its fixed (its usually the mobo)

If your OS went bonkers, you can reformat it yourself... you don't need a warranty for that. There is nothing daunting about it either.

And heck, with ZFS you can reinstall the OS/install a DIFFERENT OS that is compatible with ZFS and then just type
#zpool import -f <name>
bam, its there. In fact, I tested that out specifically.

Or move the HDDs to a different, working computer and do that.

The warranty is not going to get your data back, ever. It means sending back the whole thing and getting back a re-certified thing that has no data on it.

you take out your data drives out before you send it in...

you can reinstall DSM on a synology diskstation yourself, if you want to.

it's not like synology uses some wildly proprietary filesystem or anything, they use ext4 so even windows will be able to use the drives directly using ext2fsd.

with something you built yourself, it's up to you to fix any problems that might arise, with a prebuilt NAS you have the option of letting someone else worry about it, and that brings us back to my "it's only free if you don't value your time and energy" point.

 

[taltamir]

you take out your data drives out before you send it in...

And you can take out the data drives before replacing defective parts or wiping the OS drive yourself too.
Nothing complicated about it and nothing in unix makes this process more difficult then linux.

Recovering data from a broken array in command line? that might be scary.
Configuring the server to do something unusual in command line? definitely tough.
Restoring a system by reformating the OS Drive and replacing defective hardware? As easy as building it in the first place. For some people that is still too much and they need the warranty. But if you are able to build it you do not need a warranty to rebuild/replace it when it breaks.

you can reinstall DSM on a synology diskstation yourself, if you want to.

it's not like synology uses some wildly proprietary filesystem or anything, they use ext4 so even windows will be able to use the drives directly using ext2fsd.

And this undermines my argument how? You were saying that the hypothetical person cannot have the technical acumen to do so. And that it being unix based OS somehow makes it impossible to do and they must ship it in for warranty.

with something you built yourself, it's up to you to fix any problems that might arise, with a prebuilt NAS you have the option of letting someone else worry about it, and that brings us back to my "it's only free if you don't value your time and energy" point.

I didn't say it was free, I said it was tremendously cheaper and it takes very little technical skill and time. But that very little might still be more then you are able or willing to spend.

If this is a company equipment, if you are rich and value your time at a lot of money, if you have zero technical skill... there are a lot of reasons to buy.

But if you value the money you would save (lots, for most non rich people), can spend the time (very little), and have the skill (fairly basic) to build it yourself, then you have what it takes to not need the warranty either.

 

[Nothinman]

I like Unix-like operating systems as much as the next guy, I'm even hoping to get into the mainframe field, but I also realise that Linux/BSD/etc. only means free if you don't value your time and energy.

And non-free OSes cost time, energy and money. It's not like choosing some non-free OS magically makes things work without any effort, in fact it's quite the opposite in my experience and they end up costing more all around.