POSE method for running

[brikis98]

For years, I had noticed that I ran quite differently barefoot than with sneakers on and it always bothered me. The You Walk Wrong article clued me in that I was probably on to something. Although I had heard it mentioned plenty of times before, I've only recently started reading a little about the POSE method for running and am considering giving it a try. However, I have a number of questions about it:

1. How long does it take to learn? How much would it screw up my CF workouts that involve running? I know everyone is different, but are we talking a matter of days, weeks, or months?

2. Gentically, I'm not exactly built for running. My feet are completely flat, with no arch whatsoever, weak ligaments and a tight Achilles tendon. My arches used to hurt like hell when I was a kid, but I think my feet got a lot tougher through sports and never bother me anymore. However, I wonder if this will be an issue for POSE running?

3. Does this work for running fast or sprinting? I do very little "jogging" nowadays and most of my running is either part of CF workouts (primarily 400m & 800m runs) and some sports that involve sprinting (football, soccer, etc). So if the only benefit is for better long distance running, it wouldn't be worth it.

4. What is the best way to learn the POSE method? I'd rather avoid taking a class, but is it too hard to learn on your own?

5. Is it worth replacing my sneakers with something like Vibram Five Fingers? Would the lack of the typical padded heel of most sneakers help me learn the POSE method?

 

[BeauJangles]

I can't answer all your questions, but I know a bit about it.

First, POSE is difficult to learn to execute properly. There are exercises and workouts you can do, but I think people find the most success when they are supervised by someone who knows what they're doing. I'm not built for running either (very flat feet), but I've been told that POSE really helps. You can run at any pace with POSE. There are videos of Olympic sprinters POSE-ing. People often recommend losing the regular running shoes because, without them, it becomes painful obvious when you're running incorrectly (heel strike).

I'd start off by doing some of the exercises and see what comes of it. The POSE forums are pretty good for help.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: brikis98
For years, I had noticed that I ran quite differently barefoot than with sneakers on and it always bothered me. The You Walk Wrong article clued me in that I was probably on to something. Although I had heard it mentioned plenty of times before, I've only recently started reading a little about the POSE method for running and am considering giving it a try. However, I have a number of questions about it:

1. How long does it take to learn? How much would it screw up my CF workouts that involve running? I know everyone is different, but are we talking a matter of days, weeks, or months?

2. Gentically, I'm not exactly built for running. My feet are completely flat, with no arch whatsoever, weak ligaments and a tight Achilles tendon. My arches used to hurt like hell when I was a kid, but I think my feet got a lot tougher through sports and never bother me anymore. However, I wonder if this will be an issue for POSE running?

3. Does this work for running fast or sprinting? I do very little "jogging" nowadays and most of my running is either part of CF workouts (primarily 400m & 800m runs) and some sports that involve sprinting (football, soccer, etc). So if the only benefit is for better long distance running, it wouldn't be worth it.

4. What is the best way to learn the POSE method? I'd rather avoid taking a class, but is it too hard to learn on your own?

5. Is it worth replacing my sneakers with something like Vibram Five Fingers? Would the lack of the typical padded heel of most sneakers help me learn the POSE method?

Allllriightyyy. Finally something I know something about

1. The time it takes you to learn will vary. As a sprinter from high school, it took me perhaps 3 weeks to get down to a science. It takes some people several months to actually get it down so it just really depends on how quick of a learner you are and how your feet respond.

2. I'm not built for running either. Both of my feet are extremely flat and I normally wear orthodics in my shoes to correct them. POSE will definitely take its toll on your feet and calves for the first bit. It's really awkward to start using muscles you've really neglected for a while. Achilles tightness and calf soreness are usually some problems people have because you gotta stay on your toes at all times. You'll have to ease into it because of that.

3. I sprint. I was a fairly decent sprinter in high school. I essentially sprinted in POSE form without even knowing it. When I didn't, I would really hurt myself (knees, ankles, foot). In sprinting, you may accommodate with more leg lift than POSE normally suggests, but everything else will be fine. I've sprinted in my Five Fingers with POSE form and it felt pretty good.

4. I wouldn't say it's hard on your own, but you have to be aware of your body and what it's doing. Most people, while running, really don't have a clue as to what everything's doing. If you are observant and have good proprioception, I would say you could definitely do it on your own. It would help if you posted videos on the CF forums/here so others/I could help.

5. From my experience, I would say yes 100%. However, it is fairly difficult to go from shoes to Five Fingers. You have to deal with a transition period where you build up the small muscles in your feet before you really wanna challenge them with running. Especially with flat feet, you have to be careful with easing the Five Fingers into your life because if your muscles/ligaments/tendons aren't ready, you can get tendinitis in a heartbeat.

I recently tried to run a 5k in my running shoes. I did it, but boy was it awkward. That heel cushion really changes the position of your foot as it strikes the ground. After using the Five Fingers with POSE for a while, it felt really, really uncomfortable.

Oh, as a sidenote, I also wanted to point something out that I don't like about POSE: they don't talk about arms enough. Your arms are not just along for the ride. You can increase your pace just by increasing your arm turnover. You can increase your forward momentum with more powerful swings. Don't neglect your arms like I've seen so many "good" POSE runners do. They're there for momentum and control. I use my arms quite a bit when I run. Olympic sprinters aren't huge up top because they just wanna look good. It's a functional thing.

EDIT: As I continue to watch some form videos, I still think POSE has some faults. It often promotes people to reach with their toes, instead of maintaining a dorsiflexed ankle. That really increases the amount of time that your foot is on the ground doing nothing. As a sprinter, I will always tell people that you need to keep your foot cocked for optimal foot response. I do this with how I run and it works great. Perhaps I don't run exactly POSE and I don't think I ever will because there are still some major disagreements I have with it. I think the idea in general is good, but the way I see it applied, it is mainly for long, slow runners. I may make a thread about what's good and what's bad about POSE in my opinion and may even post videos. I forgot how much I didn't like some of the things they taught.

 

[brikis98]

Thanks for the info guys. I'll have to do more reading and watch some videos and see how it feels. I'll try it on my own at first and if it's not going well, I'll look into find a class. In the meantime, any recommendations for good online POSE tutorials, or should I just use the mainsite? I'm also going to try to find a store in my area that carries the vibram five fingers so i can try them out. They are bloody expensive, but I love walking barefoot, and this is probably as close as I'll get without risking puncture wounds

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: brikis98
Thanks for the info guys. I'll have to do more reading and watch some videos and see how it feels. I'll try it on my own at first and if it's not going well, I'll look into find a class. In the meantime, any recommendations for good online POSE tutorials, or should I just use the mainsite? I'm also going to try to find a store in my area that carries the vibram five fingers so i can try them out. They are bloody expensive, but I love walking barefoot, and this is probably as close as I'll get without risking puncture wounds

I honestly don't know, man. I haven't been finding any videos that I would like to suggest. I've been looking at some and it just seems... biomechanically awkward at certain points. I may very well make a video tomorrow to show how I think running should be done.

 

[StageLeft]

I spent a lot of time a couple years ago reading about alternative approaches to running because of a chronic pain in one knee. In the end, and to summarize a great deal of reading and thinking on it, I think pose is worth a shot. For some people they really do swear by it, for others not so much. I feel very safe saying that it is not the ultimate form of running, as Dr. Romanov is so, well, arrogant about. We should also note that despite vague arguments to the contrary the vast majority of elite middle and long distance runners are heel strikers or midfoot runners--they are not forefoot strikers as people on the poseforums will argue until they're blue in the face (and I know this because I have slow-motioned many races and always see the same thing).

Also, the idea that it's possible to land below or behind the center of gravity is simply impossible except while accelerating or running into a headwind. There are no videos proving the contrary (even ones that posetech even posts that supposedly prove it!).

That said, for all the negatives, I did try changing my running form up for a while and got quite a few runs in. It really jacked my calf size up relative to where it was and it's worth looking into if for no reason other than to be more aware of your running form, because many people's form is bad with a low cadence and too much vertical motion.

BTW, my injury happened to be due to a substantial tightness in my right hip (still an ongoing problem!).

Romanov has a lot of interesting ideas but he speaks with an aplomb that's not warranted. I remember after that Jamaican guy in the Olympics did some obscene times that Romanov even analyzed his run on his site and found a few problems in it, which I thought was fairly lawl-worthy.

 

[kotss]

I started my research with Barefoot Running.
Barefoot Ken Bob to me in the long run comes across with a better demeanor than Romanov and is not "pushing" a method. I have started the barefoot style and even if you have some running base, take the first week easy (2 miles or less per day). Be prepared for sore calves, if you are doing it relatively correctly.
The idea is to spend the least amount of time with your foot in contact with the ground as possible. The zen concept is to think about lifting your foot from the ground just as it touches. In reality that does not happen but it gives you the proper though pattern. I did buy the Vibram Five Fingers and I like them. Just be careful about modifying your form radically. I had a previous injury from many years ago that causes me to land with the foot more on the outside of the foot than I should, I tried correcting this and caused a stress fracture. With the Vibrams I was able to get to my previous racing pace within 2 months of use. I definitely noticed a difference in the fact that some pains that were developing went away and I also have recently learned that easy runs should be run easy.
I am wearing sneakers right now, only because I have winter and I make all attempts to run outside. (Hate the treadmill, but I have done trreadmill with the VFF's.) Once the good weather comes out I will bring back the VFF's. I have changed my style of running even with sneakers. Although it is difficult to run "barefoot style" in sneakers, I make a good attempt at it and have been comfortable with results. I probably will need reacclimation time for the VFF's. I am a bit to cowardly to go full barefoot and call myself a barefoot style runner.
One thing with the VFF's, you use them predominantly off pavement as they will wear out from pavement use.

 

[brikis98]

Thanks for the good info so far guys. Please keep it coming.

kotss brought up a good point that I stupidly overlooked. It's winter now and there is no way in hell I'm going to be able to run outside for a few months - it's cold, snowy/icy, and I get home from work really late when it's quite dark. So unless I postpone this POSE experiment until spring/summer, I'd have to learn on a treadmill. I have a suspicion that this is a recipe for disaster. Thoughts?

 

[StageLeft]

U can do it on treadmill no problem!

Kotss makes a good point about pulling. He is aware that the "attempt" is to pull but in truth the foot does still push. At least from reading the pose forums it seems like many there do truly think that the foot pulls, which isn't possible.

BTW cheaper than vibrams you can buy some cheap "aquasocks" from walmart. Very flexible amd thin. I did at least 30 miles in mine while practicing all this stuff.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Alas, I don't anticipate I'll have time to do some running form videos this weekend. Two more midterms coming up. I'll think about it after Wednesday and see what I can do.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
U can do it on treadmill no problem!

I found an article about treadmill running on the posettech site where Dr. Romanov explains, as one would expect, that it does change some of the biomechanical and psychological factors in running. Despite that, he says a treadmill is still a good solution if running outside is not an option, so I guess I'll give it a shot.

Originally posted by: Skoorb
BTW cheaper than vibrams you can buy some cheap "aquasocks" from walmart. Very flexible amd thin. I did at least 30 miles in mine while practicing all this stuff.

Ooh, neat idea. I guess as long as they fit well and protect the skin from cuts, they'd probably do the job. I'll definitely check these out, thanks.

 

[kotss]

There are version of the VFF that are meant for cold weather. They are not cheap though. I predominantly ran on pavement with my VFF's and wore out the rubber under my left big toe. (Hole there now.) I plan on doing more barefoot running once the ground dries up in late spring. There is a certain euphoria I got running without any coverings. You can transistion to pavement after building up the cushioning on the soles. (You really do not build up callouses.) I was impatient and rushed it. There are a couple of Good Videos on runningbarefoot.org that show or explain the technique. Well worth viewing. Barefoot Ken Bob tends to harp a little too much for my liking but his ideas seem good to me. I would really start with the how to run section. He evens goes to state that after years of running barefoot, even he is still learning to do it properly. I can state that were some moments that I knew I had it just right, but it only lasted for a short time. Running does involve learning a little more about the body (never a bad thing), but you must also listen to your body. If you are feeling pain, you are doing something wrong or something is wrong (i.e. sprains, breaks, fractures). I am starting to realize how much more fun running is off pavement and can not wait for the good weather. I run during the winter and hate spinning wheels on loose snow. It is a good workout but it is not very enjoyable. I like feeling the push of the foot on the ground. Another little point about this whole concept is taking quicker strides. This will also help to keep minimal contact with the ground. Also make sure you are actually leaning very slightly backward, not forward. This helps you to keep your butt tucked in and lets you lift your knees more easily. Your arms and hands are equally important. Pump you arms and try to keep from clenching your fists. (Clenching your fists actually uses up energy quicker, due to putting stress/tension on the muscles.)
The other fun things about the VFF's is the reaction from other runners and just other people. I even wore them while I was at work. People had some crazy comments. Runners were more interested in where I got them. They weigh about the same as a good pair of running flats. (I have run a 20:08 5K in them). I found that I did not have to run very fast workout times since you are strengthing your calves as compared to sneakers.

Also another good website about the VFF's is Keith in Training, there is a link from the Vibram site. This guy actually uses them and tells you about it.

Hope my ranting has some value to it.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

I have never really heard it suggested, nor would I ever suggest, that someone should lean backward at all as they run. A forward lean is essential to almost all running since it uses gravity and good form to optimize energy usage. You can still plant with the ball of your foot and you can still be injury free. Also, leaning forward actually allows for a greater complete turnover. I'm not saying to lean at the hips and have awkward leg positon, but your lean should start at your ankles. Your body should roughly be in the same plane from ankle to head. Leaning back/being upright worked for Michael Johnson, but often times it doesn't work for normal biomechanics.

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
I have never really heard it suggested, nor would I ever suggest, that someone should lean backward at all as they run. A forward lean is essential to almost all running since it uses gravity and good form to optimize energy usage. You can still plant with the ball of your foot and you can still be injury free. Also, leaning forward actually allows for a greater complete turnover. I'm not saying to lean at the hips and have awkward leg positon, but your lean should start at your ankles. Your body should roughly be in the same plane from ankle to head. Leaning back/being upright worked for Michael Johnson, but often times it doesn't work for normal biomechanics.

Here is a good article I found about Running Form.
I understand that this is not a "technical" article, but in trying out these things I have found that making the attempt to do this make the running easier for me.
As in all things you can take what you want from it. But if you really read through it, you will see that a very slight backward tilt will give a good form.
I am not talking about dramatizing it, just very slight or just up straight. Again its like a zen thought, making the effort to think about it helps to make it happen.

Also from Pre.

"Running is an art, body back and hips forward, like the moment of deepest penetration" -Steve Prefontaine

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: kotss

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
I have never really heard it suggested, nor would I ever suggest, that someone should lean backward at all as they run. A forward lean is essential to almost all running since it uses gravity and good form to optimize energy usage. You can still plant with the ball of your foot and you can still be injury free. Also, leaning forward actually allows for a greater complete turnover. I'm not saying to lean at the hips and have awkward leg positon, but your lean should start at your ankles. Your body should roughly be in the same plane from ankle to head. Leaning back/being upright worked for Michael Johnson, but often times it doesn't work for normal biomechanics.

Here is a good article I found about Running Form.
I understand that this is a "technical" article, but in trying out these things I have found that making the attempt to do this make the running easier for me.
As in all things you can take what you want from it. But if you really read through it, you will see that a very slight backward tilt will give a good form.
I am not talking about dramatizing it, just very slight or just up straight.

Also from Pre.

"Running is an art, body back and hips forward, like the moment of deepest penetration" -Steve Prefontaine

I still don't think it's a good idea. If you work on knee drive and leg flexibility, you can bring your legs through quite easily with the benefit of increased turnover and gravity's force. A forward lean, especially in sprints, is essentially for proper acceleration, turnover, and drive. I can't agree with the advice at least with faster paced events.

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
I still don't think it's a good idea. If you work on knee drive and leg flexibility, you can bring your legs through quite easily with the benefit of increased turnover and gravity's force. A forward lean, especially in sprints, is essentially for proper acceleration, turnover, and drive. I can't agree with the advice at least with faster paced events.

I agree with you about sprinting. My thoughts were in regard to distances longer than 800 meters or a mile. I actually make an effort to do it (tuck the butt in) and recognize the increase in pacing when I get lazy during the run and lean forward a little. At the end of a run when I break into a sprint I will lean forward because that is more beneficial during a sprint.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Skoorb
U can do it on treadmill no problem!

I found an article about treadmill running on the posettech site where Dr. Romanov explains, as one would expect, that it does change some of the biomechanical and psychological factors in running. Despite that, he says a treadmill is still a good solution if running outside is not an option, so I guess I'll give it a shot.

Originally posted by: Skoorb
BTW cheaper than vibrams you can buy some cheap "aquasocks" from walmart. Very flexible amd thin. I did at least 30 miles in mine while practicing all this stuff.

Ooh, neat idea. I guess as long as they fit well and protect the skin from cuts, they'd probably do the job. I'll definitely check these out, thanks.

I SLIGHTLY lied. Walmart sells $7-8 things that look, these days, more like sneakers. The aqua socks I got were from Dick's sporting goods and they're the ones you want. They look goofy but they will satisfy the desire for a low-heel shoe.

I think barefoot running is just simply stupid. The technique of it can be good but actually doing it is brainless, especially since shoes like the vibram exist, which will impact your technique to no degree whatsoever and add the very important resistance against landing on, say, glass. Why anybody would actually run truly without shoes outside when they run the risk of landing on all kinds of things is beyond me.

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: Skoorb
U can do it on treadmill no problem!

I found an article about treadmill running on the posettech site where Dr. Romanov explains, as one would expect, that it does change some of the biomechanical and psychological factors in running. Despite that, he says a treadmill is still a good solution if running outside is not an option, so I guess I'll give it a shot.

Originally posted by: Skoorb
BTW cheaper than vibrams you can buy some cheap "aquasocks" from walmart. Very flexible amd thin. I did at least 30 miles in mine while practicing all this stuff.

Ooh, neat idea. I guess as long as they fit well and protect the skin from cuts, they'd probably do the job. I'll definitely check these out, thanks.

I SLIGHTLY lied. Walmart sells $7-8 things that look, these days, more like sneakers. The aqua socks I got were from Dick's sporting goods and they're the ones you want. They look goofy but they will satisfy the desire for a low-heel shoe.

I think barefoot running is just simply stupid. The technique of it can be good but actually doing it is brainless, especially since shoes like the vibram exist, which will impact your technique to no degree whatsoever and add the very important resistance against landing on, say, glass. Why anybody would actually run truly without shoes outside when they run the risk of landing on all kinds of things is beyond me.

I am by no means trying to convert you, but it is not brainless to run barefoot. Only when running barefoot can you truly get all the feedback you need to keep your form proper. Plus your feet will adapt and you could run over glass (within limits) without injury. Check back in a previous entry of mine for videos and watch the barefoot joe one. I personally was too much of a wuss to keep going with it when I first started with the VFF's. This spring I am more determined to do as much barefoot as I can. (I will still use my VFF's depending on the situation, but I plan on making a better go of it for barefoot.) Our feet are more capable and tougher than we know.

 

[StageLeft]

I saw that, the guy said he can run over glass. I guess I'd need to see it to believe it I wouldn't want to run over a used needle or something (ok, I know that isn't likely)!

 

[kotss]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I saw that, the guy said he can run over glass. I guess I'd need to see it to believe it I wouldn't want to run over a used needle or something (ok, I know that isn't likely)!

One a serious note: I would not advocate running over glass. I would avoid it. Little stones hurt like hell!! People walk hot coals as well. Does not mean I will be doing any time soon. The point is our feet can be alot tougher than we allow for. I think that needles are something that you would have to be on the look out for, especially if you are doing beach runs. I always keep on the lookout for whats ahead of me even when wearing foot coffins (sneakers). If you are a runner of any kind, give barefoot running a try and see if it doesn't make it a little bit of fun.

 

[brikis98]

Decided to dig up my own old thread because I was poking around, trying to find some good tutorials for POSE running... and I haven't found much of anything good. Anyone know of some good written tutorials and (preferably) videos?