Pope visit to the US

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fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
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And if he advocates that we should do more to help the poor, that's perfectly within the confines of his religious position. When he starts talking about just how that should be done, it steps over into politics and I'd kindly tell him to STFU.

So you're okay with him advocating for the poor so long as he doesn't actually try and provide a solution. That makes perfect sense.

lolwut?

For someone who thinks he's an expert on everything, you sure seem very confused. Abortion is an issue from a religion perspective (with most being fundamentally opposed to it). I have no problem with politicians talking about politics and policies -- even if they come at it from their personal religious perspective. Politics and policy is their job.

It is frankly hilarious to me that you are complaining about me being an 'expert on everything' in a thread where you declared that you know more about Catholicism than the Pope. Come on, even you have to find that hypocrisy amusing. (don't try to deny it, it's exactly what you did)

It's interesting to me that you suddenly appear to believe that religious groups should have no political opinions. Since huge amounts of anti-abortion groups are religiously affiliated I assume you will be calling for them all to immediately disband, is that correct?

My guess is no. Your real objection here is political speech you disagree with and we both know it.

Religion says nothing about "accepting the science on climate change", that's just the pope going into politics. He's a left winger masquerading as a religious leader, and his opinions should be treated as such. If we're talking about Catholicism, I'll listen to him. If he's talking about political crap, not so much.

The Pope apparently disagrees with you on what his religion says as shown by his recent encyclical on climate change. Then again, it appears you think you know better than he does. Now who's the expert on everything? hahaha.

All praise Pope Pokerguy!
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
39,526
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And if he advocates that we should do more to help the poor, that's perfectly within the confines of his religious position. When he starts talking about just how that should be done, it steps over into politics and I'd kindly tell him to STFU.



For someone who thinks he's an expert on everything, you sure seem very confused. Abortion is an issue from a religion perspective (with most being fundamentally opposed to it). I have no problem with politicians talking about politics and policies -- even if they come at it from their personal religious perspective. Politics and policy is their job.



Religion says nothing about "accepting the science on climate change", that's just the pope going into politics. He's a left winger masquerading as a religious leader, and his opinions should be treated as such. If we're talking about Catholicism, I'll listen to him. If he's talking about political crap, not so much.

Religion says nothing about Communism yet righties were ok with that.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
63,075
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He's a left winger masquerading as a religious leader, and his opinions should be treated as such. If we're talking about Catholicism, I'll listen to him. If he's talking about political crap, not so much.

He's not masquerading as anything, he IS a religious leader, in one of the most prominent positions that exist for that. Wasn't Jesus kinda left wing too?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
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knock on wood, but driving in and out of Manhattan has been amazing this week... I'm guessing the specter of il Papa has scared people off the roads?
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
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He's a left winger masquerading as a religious leader,

Like Obama is masquerading as a non-Muslim?

You have the same message over and over again; if someone does not agree with your views (harm the people you don't like) they are clearly lairs.

You sound like you are mentally ill.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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Religion says nothing about "accepting the science on climate change", that's just the pope going into politics. He's a left winger masquerading as a religious leader and his opinions should be treated as such. If we're talking about Catholicism, I'll listen to him. If he's talking about political crap, not so much.

This could be the most partisan poorly thought out statement I've heard in a long time.
The Popes' point is we are damaging the planet, our gift from god. This lack of respect is and will make existence harder for the less fortunate. You can't possibly believe that he planned being Pope decades ago and now wants to force his liberal agenda upon you.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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I wonder if things would be different if he was preaching the gospel of the all-mighty dollar.

I think that's what some (not all) Republicans wanted after he slammed gay marriage & abortion.
It would have been great if the Pope tagged along with Obama during his prison visit. Pope could have washed some feet and give forgiveness to the inmates.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
15,922
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This Pope's thing ain't got nothing to do with the left and right. His thing has everything to do with the disparity between the rich and the poor. He rides around in a little Fiat 500 on official visits fer cry'in out loud.

If that isn't making a statement about his concerns of the world I don't know what is.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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If that isn't making a statement about his concerns of the world I don't know what is.

Since when does riding in a Fiat mean I'm concerned for the world?

If anything, it means he's concerned for the IMAGE of the RCC...
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
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And, it's not just our own Righthadists that bash the Pope; http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-francis-is-a-fake-20150922-story.html

In recent days, I’ve heard from a couple of these people. They disagreed with a column in which I said Francis sets a better example of Christianity than does Kim Davis, the devout county clerk in Kentucky who refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. A real estate agent in West Hollywood sent me a brief email rebuttal to that view (I’ve fixed his punctuation and paraphrased certain words that are not allowed in a family newspaper):

“A man who preaches that Europe should be flooded by Muslims so that Christianity in Europe is wiped out is a good voice for Christianity? Are you (rhymes with trucking) stupid u subhuman stinking (coarse slang for feces)?”

The Pope, is a worse Christian, than Kim Davis.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
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Since when does riding in a Fiat mean I'm concerned for the world?

If anything, it means he's concerned for the IMAGE of the RCC...

Look at it that way at your leisure. For the very little that I know about the Pope you may be right.

However, from the beginning of his papacy, and even before that, he was known as being "one of/with the people". His comments, his behavior, his choice of possessions before and after his ascension....it all spoke to his attitude and the way he sees himself in this world being in harmony with who he really is as a man of God.

It may be that ALL of what he represents himself as is imagery, but when weighing what little I know of the man, I'd confidently lean in favor of his really being who he appears to be, rather than him creating an image of himself that he thinks might bring him into favorable light.

edit - Check this link out for more about his character and personality:

http://ncronline.org/news/vatican/understand-pope-francis-look-jesuits
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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So you're okay with him advocating for the poor so long as he doesn't actually try and provide a solution. That makes perfect sense.

He can advocate for the poor without telling us how to do it. How to do it is up to us, he should remind us of the fact that we should. Our Christian duty isn't to do it the way the pope wants us to, it is to care for our brothers and sisters -- we have to figure out how to do that.

And yes, that makes perfect sense.

It is frankly hilarious to me that you are complaining about me being an 'expert on everything' in a thread where you declared that you know more about Catholicism than the Pope.

I have not declared any such thing. No need to make up lies.

Come on, even you have to find that hypocrisy amusing. (don't try to deny it, it's exactly what you did)

Nope, your making up stuff is not particularly funny. Dull and repetitive is more like it.

It's interesting to me that you suddenly appear to believe that religious groups should have no political opinions. Since huge amounts of anti-abortion groups are religiously affiliated I assume you will be calling for them all to immediately disband, is that correct?

Did I call for the church to disband? No. Why would you expect that I'd call for those groups to disband? Religious groups are entitled to whatever opinions they want, but the teachings of the religion should not be based on a political ideology or party. If they are, then they can expect that only people who follow that same political ideology would support the religion. Clearly that's not what the church does. The church has always taken positions on religious matters, but generally stayed out of politics. When it does delve into politics it's almost always a bad thing.

My guess is no. Your real objection here is political speech you disagree with and we both know it.

No, my objection is political speech by the pontiff. He came out and took a position supporting gun rights I'd say the same thing: it has nothing to do with the church, stay out of politics.

The Pope apparently disagrees with you on what his religion says as shown by his recent encyclical on climate change.

As I already said, he's a leftist heading up the church, so I take his opinion on those matters to be worth what I paid for them.

Then again, it appears you think you know better than he does. Now who's the expert on everything? hahaha.

Making up crap again. Must get pretty tiring making up things ;)

All praise Pope Pokerguy!

Now we're getting somewhere!
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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You can't possibly believe that he planned being Pope decades ago and now wants to force his liberal agenda upon you.

Of course not. He's just a liberal who happens to have become pope. Nothing wrong with that, but when he delves into politics (as he is doing), then his opinion on political matters should be promptly ignored.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
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Look at it that way at your leisure. For the very little that I know about the Pope you may be right.

Listen, the Pope has every reason to be concerned about the image of his Church, as I would be too if I were him.

I believe he's genuine in his concern for the poor, but I also know that the RCC has been long maligned for the luxurious living of its Popes. This no doubt influenced him, hence, why the media is narrowly focused on what he's driving and where he's living.

He's definitely trying to change public opinion on that.

However, from the beginning of his papacy, and even before that, he was known as being "one of/with the people". His comments, his behavior, his choice of possessions before and after his ascension....it all spoke to his attitude and the way he sees himself in this world being in harmony with who he really is as a man of God.

Like I said, his personality is genuine, IMO -- but acting as if he's not trying to draw people BACK to the Church is disingenuous.

It may be that ALL of what he represents himself as is imagery, but when weighing what little I know of the man, I'd confidently lean in favor of his really being who he appears to be, rather than him creating an image of himself that he thinks might bring him into favorable light.

I never meant to get into saying anything negative about this man, but the way the media and people like you are lapping this dude up, you'd think Jesus Christ was visiting the U.S.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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Like I said, his personality is genuine, IMO -- but acting as if he's not trying to draw people BACK to the Church is disingenuous.

For what it's worth, I agree, I'm not so cynical as to think that it's all a political act. I think the guy is genuine, he's presenting himself as he is, even though he's misguided in his politics and choosing to enter them. That doesn't make him a bad person, I think he's more genuine than almost all politicians that I've seen.
 

dawheat

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
3,132
93
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He can advocate for the poor without telling us how to do it. How to do it is up to us, he should remind us of the fact that we should. Our Christian duty isn't to do it the way the pope wants us to, it is to care for our brothers and sisters -- we have to figure out how to do that.

Hmm so religious leaders should constrain themselves to philosophies only and never any practical measures (e.g. policies, laws, etc)? As the leader of the Catholic Church to followers of the Catholic Church, why shouldn't he give practical measures to meet those goals.

I don't agree with all his positions, but I have no issues with him pushing the world to make real, material commitments vs. vague promises.

Being a good steward of creation, being radically generous to the poor - these are all teachings of Christ that honestly we'll never remotely approach because people are people.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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I think we've found a Republican who is pissed that the Pope isn't here to yell at Gays or people who had abortions.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,507
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And, it's not just our own Righthadists that bash the Pope; http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-francis-is-a-fake-20150922-story.html



The Pope, is a worse Christian, than Kim Davis.

They never disappoint, do they? ;)

I think these angry conservatives should just go ahead and make up their own bullshit religion and be done with it. They're quite selective about which christian tenants to believe in, and pretty much no one else takes their cherry-picked stance on their religion seriously (hence the laughter).

C'mon angry guys, why not fabricate a new religion a little more consistent with the bizarre views you guys find yourself supporting? Isn't is tiring to always be laughed at or on the losing end of arguments because the christian tradition just isn't up to speed on those dastardly commies or filthy homos?
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
8,151
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For what it's worth, I agree, I'm not so cynical as to think that it's all a political act. I think the guy is genuine, he's presenting himself as he is, even though he's misguided in his politics and choosing to enter them. That doesn't make him a bad person, I think he's more genuine than almost all politicians that I've seen.

He is who he is, that's true.

But he's more than an religious leader, he's a politician as well to some degree, which is why he's even visiting the U.S, then Congress, and then the United Nations.

And like any good politician, at least some of this IS an act.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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Hmm so religious leaders should constrain themselves to philosophies only and never any practical measures (e.g. policies, laws, etc)? As the leader of the Catholic Church to followers of the Catholic Church, why shouldn't he give practical measures to meet those goals.

Because that essentially makes the church a political party. Feel free to tell the world about your religion and what you think people should do based on the teachings... but stay out of politics. For example, in the US, churches don't have to pay taxes on their income as long as they don't become political organizations.

I don't agree with all his positions, but I have no issues with him pushing the world to make real, material commitments vs. vague promises.

So lets say the pope came out and said "vote for candidate A, not candidate B, he's a poor choice!". Would that be OK as well? Of course not. I belong to a church because I have a set of religious beliefs, I don't need them to dictate my politics to me.

Being a good steward of creation, being radically generous to the poor - these are all teachings of Christ that honestly we'll never remotely approach because people are people.

Yep, those are teachings of Christ and I'm definitely on board with them. You can advocate for those without delving into politics. Last I checked Jesus said nothing about curbing CO2 emissions ;)
 
Feb 16, 2005
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So if he were vocally condemning same sex marriage, praising kim davis, bemoaning abortion at every minute, you'd also have a problem with it?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
136
He can advocate for the poor without telling us how to do it. How to do it is up to us, he should remind us of the fact that we should. Our Christian duty isn't to do it the way the pope wants us to, it is to care for our brothers and sisters -- we have to figure out how to do that.

And yes, that makes perfect sense.

Of course your duty isn't to do it the way the Pope wants you to, but the idea that he should not propose solutions to things he identifies as problems is ridiculous. I can't imagine why it would be preferable for him to stand up and make vague pronouncements of what's wrong with the world while offering no ideas on how to improve them.

That's just baffling unless your goal is to suppress political speech that you don't like. (which is most likely the case here)

I have not declared any such thing. No need to make up lies.

Nope, your making up stuff is not particularly funny. Dull and repetitive is more like it.

You've done exactly that.

The Pope has said that taking action against climate change is a religious issue because it relates to mankind's stewardship of creation. You have said that it is not a religious issue, but a political one, which means the Pope is wrong in his interpretation. That means you are exactly saying that you are interpreting Catholicism correctly and he is not, ergo you know more about it than he does. There is no escaping this.

You just said something insanely hypocritical and you apparently didn't even notice. While complaining about other people being 'experts on everything' you declared yourself to be interpreting Catholicism better than the Pope. Just own your hypocrisy and move on.

Did I call for the church to disband? No. Why would you expect that I'd call for those groups to disband? Religious groups are entitled to whatever opinions they want, but the teachings of the religion should not be based on a political ideology or party. If they are, then they can expect that only people who follow that same political ideology would support the religion. Clearly that's not what the church does. The church has always taken positions on religious matters, but generally stayed out of politics. When it does delve into politics it's almost always a bad thing.

Anti-abortion groups are political action groups that stem from religious organizations. Since you said religious organizations shouldn't be involved in politics, you should be calling for those anti-abortion groups to disband by your own logic.

I didn't say anything about the church disbanding, I was simply following your own rules for what religious organizations should be doing. Color me shocked that it doesn't apply for conservative causes. :)

No, my objection is political speech by the pontiff. He came out and took a position supporting gun rights I'd say the same thing: it has nothing to do with the church, stay out of politics.

As I already said, he's a leftist heading up the church, so I take his opinion on those matters to be worth what I paid for them.

Yes I know you think you are more of an expert on Catholicism than the Pope. He said it was a religious issue, but you think you know better and he's wrong. This just so happens to coincide with the fact that he supports some liberal things though I'm sure.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
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So if he were vocally condemning same sex marriage, praising kim davis, bemoaning abortion at every minute, you'd also have a problem with it?

I imagine those things are acceptably "religious" as defined by Pokerguy.

Because Pokerguy is an expert on Catholicism, he's determined the Pope saying that climate change was a religious issue due to mankind's stewardship of creation is wrong so he shouldn't talk about it anymore.

Once the Pope is as learned about Catholicism as Pokerguy is I'm sure he'll see the light.