Pope visit to the US

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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
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I think we've found a Republican who is pissed that the Pope isn't here to yell at Gays or people who had abortions.


I've noticed that the Jesuits tend to do that to others, which incidentally is the reason they are pretty much the only faction with that church I can at least respect. I've long been amazed that their views on science, as well as the protection of children and the poor, are not the prevailing views within that organization. Still, they've made contributions to math and science that support some the secular and scientific views I hold today, kudos right?

The Jesuits were pretty much the only ones within the church who viewed the rape of boys and girls at the hands of priests and nuns to be criminal, unlike so many others who seem to have considered the abuse some kind of twisted job perk (one to be protected mind you).

I'd say this pope is one of the few religious leaders that not only I would actually want to meet, but I'd break bread with the guy and kick back. He's the first pope that gives the me the same weird feeling the Dalai Lama does, and that's a good thing.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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So if he were vocally condemning same sex marriage, praising kim davis, bemoaning abortion at every minute, you'd also have a problem with it?

I suspect that this wasn't aimed at me, but to answer anyway, I summarized my reasons for the complete separation of religion and politics on page 1.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Of course not. He's just a liberal who happens to have become pope. Nothing wrong with that, but when he delves into politics (as he is doing), then his opinion on political matters should be promptly ignored.

Your so lost it is truly pathetic.

The RCC not being involved in politics, that's a good one :p

Your whole knowledge of world history seems to be almost non existent.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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So if he were vocally condemning same sex marriage, praising kim davis, bemoaning abortion at every minute, you'd also have a problem with it?

If he says abortion is a sin in the eyes of the church, I have no problem with it. If he says "we need to reverse Roe v Wade so vote for candidate x", then yes, I have a problem with it. Same with SSM. Perfectly fine to say what the church position is and to advocate, but you can do that without going into politics.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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I'd say this pope is one of the few religious leaders that not only I would actually want to meet, but I'd break bread with the guy and kick back. He's the first pope that gives the me the same weird feeling the Dalai Lama does, and that's a good thing.

Not aimed at you, but everyone likes a religious person that, honestly, pussyfoots on issues that you're likely to strongly disagree with him on.

Let him speak out against gay marriage and abortion and the type of person he is won't matter to you anymore.

Its the truth.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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Fighting for freedom of religion (ie, fighting for those who want to practice their religion to be able to do so) is part of religion, so I see no problem with that. Talking about global warming or other political crap that has nothing to do with religion is a different story.

Seeing as the Vatican and the RCC has some very advanced scientific research going non stop, nah they shouldn't even let that influence any decisions they make at all.

I'm not Catholic, but I'm not ignorant either.

:rolleyes:
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Not aimed at you, but everyone likes a religious person that, honestly, pussyfoots on issues that you're likely to strongly disagree with him on.

Let him speak out against gay marriage and abortion and the type of person he is won't matter to you anymore.

Its the truth.

I doubt it, at least about gay marriage. I don't care if he thinks Catholic marriage is for a man and a woman only, I only care if he thinks the state should prohibit same sex marriages for everyone, regardless of any religious affiliation.

I find the Catholic position on abortion irrational but I wouldn't hate him for it. I have a number of relatives who are very religious and are adamant opponents of abortion. They're good people, they just have a few kooky beliefs, just like our good friend the Pope.
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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Of course your duty isn't to do it the way the Pope wants you to, but the idea that he should not propose solutions to things he identifies as problems is ridiculous. I can't imagine why it would be preferable for him to stand up and make vague pronouncements of what's wrong with the world while offering no ideas on how to improve them.

Specific policies and solutions are up to the lawmakers and politicians of the country, not the religious leaders. I don't think religion and politics are a good mix, and yes, that goes for all of them regardless of political positions.

That's just baffling unless your goal is to suppress political speech that you don't like. (which is most likely the case here)

I don't want to suppress anything. Unlike the left, I'm perfectly fine with other people voicing opinions I don't agree with. He's entitled to an opinion just like I'm entitled to say I think he's wrong.

You've done exactly that.

No, I haven't. That's just your incorrect interpretation.

The Pope has said that taking action against climate change is a religious issue because it relates to mankind's stewardship of creation.

Just because he considers it a religious issue doesn't mean it is. I don't believe it is. That doesn't mean I think I know more about Catholicism than he does, it means I disagree with whether I think something is a religious issue or a political one. Although, given the true believers in the climate change movement, maybe he's right, maybe it is a religious thing.

There is no escaping this.

Again, just your incorrect interpretation.

You just said something insanely hypocritical and you apparently didn't even notice. While complaining about other people being 'experts on everything' you declared yourself to be interpreting Catholicism better than the Pope.

No, YOU said I declared myself to be interpreting Catholicism better than the pope, not me. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing your perception of my position from my actual ones.

Anti-abortion groups are political action groups that stem from religious organizations. Since you said religious organizations shouldn't be involved in politics, you should be calling for those anti-abortion groups to disband by your own logic.

Baloney. You just said yourself that the groups are political action groups. Wouldn't you expect them to involved in politics? The fact that their goals are based on their religion is not relevant. Now if the actual church itself engages in politics, then yes, I'm opposed to it.

He said it was a religious issue, but you think you know better and he's wrong.

Correct. He's wrong, but that doesn't mean I know more about Catholicism than he does, it means I believe he's wrong in his determination that this is a religious matter.

This just so happens to coincide with the fact that he supports some liberal things though I'm sure.

Actually, anyone who's read my posts over the years knows I'm no big fan of religion either, and definitely not a fan of any religion in politics, liberal or conservative. Religion generally requires faith in something, and I don't like the idea of imposing that belief on others who don't share the same faith... hence no religion in politics or government for me.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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I doubt it, at least about gay marriage. I don't care if he thinks Catholic marriage is for a man and a woman only, I only care if he thinks the state should prohibit same sex marriages for everyone, regardless of any religious affiliation.

Nonsense.

Nearly everyone who simply disagrees with gay marriage are called bigots and homophobes, many of whom have no interest in legislating it.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
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Yep, those are teachings of Christ and I'm definitely on board with them. You can advocate for those without delving into politics. Last I checked Jesus said nothing about curbing CO2 emissions ;)
Last I checked, Jesus said nothing about gay marriage...
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Specific policies and solutions are up to the lawmakers and politicians of the country, not the religious leaders. I don't think religion and politics are a good mix, and yes, that goes for all of them regardless of political positions.

The Pope isn't passing any laws. The idea that he should identify problems and offer no solutions is absurd.

I don't want to suppress anything. Unlike the left, I'm perfectly fine with other people voicing opinions I don't agree with. He's entitled to an opinion just like I'm entitled to say I think he's wrong.

You have literally said in this thread that the Pope should not talk about politics so you are clearly not perfectly fine with him voicing opinions you don't agree with.

If you don't want to suppress anything, then stop saying people shouldn't talk. That's step #1 in 'not suppressing'.

No, I haven't. That's just your incorrect interpretation.

Just because he considers it a religious issue doesn't mean it is. I don't believe it is. That doesn't mean I think I know more about Catholicism than he does, it means I disagree with whether I think something is a religious issue or a political one. Although, given the true believers in the climate change movement, maybe he's right, maybe it is a religious thing.

Again, just your incorrect interpretation.

So you don't think you know more about Catholicism than the Pope does but you are saying he has incorrectly stated that climate change is a religious issue, his basis for that being his interpretation of Catholicism.

That means you are saying that you believe you either know more about Catholicism than the Pope does or that you are better at interpreting it than he is. There is absolutely no other possible answer here. None.

I know it's hypocritical and you're trying to avoid that but it's too late. You already said it.

No, YOU said I declared myself to be interpreting Catholicism better than the pope, not me. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing your perception of my position from my actual ones.

No, there is just literally no other possible meaning to what you wrote. That's your fault, not mine.

Baloney. You just said yourself that the groups are political action groups. Wouldn't you expect them to involved in politics? The fact that their goals are based on their religion is not relevant. Now if the actual church itself engages in politics, then yes, I'm opposed to it.

Ahh, so if the Pope just makes a SuperPAC then you're not opposed to it, hahaha.

Correct. He's wrong, but that doesn't mean I know more about Catholicism than he does, it means I believe he's wrong in his determination that this is a religious matter.

WHICH IS BASED ON HIS UNDERSTANDING OF CATHOLICISM. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

IF YOU THINK HIS INTERPRETATION IS WRONG THAT MEANS YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE OR UNDERSTANDING OF CATHOLICISM. OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO BASIS FOR SAYING HE'S WRONG.


Actually, anyone who's read my posts over the years knows I'm no big fan of religion either, and definitely not a fan of any religion in politics, liberal or conservative. Religion generally requires faith in something, and I don't like the idea of imposing that belief on others who don't share the same faith... hence no religion in politics or government for me.

Religion is inherently political and having no religion in politics is a fantasy. I'm a big fan of not subsidizing religious political involvement through nonprofit status, but to think it doesn't exist as a political force is just not facing reality.

Religions have views on how the world should be and they should be as free to espouse them as anyone else is, regardless of the topic. I don't want to suppress anyone's speech.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
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Nonsense.

Nearly everyone who simply disagrees with gay marriage are called bigots and homophobes, many of whom have no interest in legislating it.

I'm very interested to know how you determined what I feel about the issue of someone opposing a religious same sex marriage while supporting secular same sex marriage.
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
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They never disappoint, do they? ;)

I think these angry conservatives should just go ahead and make up their own bullshit religion and be done with it. They're quite selective about which christian tenants to believe in, and pretty much no one else takes their cherry-picked stance on their religion seriously (hence the laughter).

C'mon angry guys, why not fabricate a new religion a little more consistent with the bizarre views you guys find yourself supporting? Isn't is tiring to always be laughed at or on the losing end of arguments because the christian tradition just isn't up to speed on those dastardly commies or filthy homos?

Please don't even think that one.

It would look too much like Sharia Law, maybe one of the reasons they try to crush the competition there.
 

Retro Rob

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2012
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I'm very interested to know how you determined what I feel about the issue of someone opposing a religious same sex marriage while supporting secular same sex marriage.

I admittedly don't know how you feel, Eskimospy, but my comment wasn't narrowly about your views on it, my good man.
 

Meghan54

Lifer
Oct 18, 2009
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It is frankly hilarious to me that you are complaining about me being an 'expert on everything'



I have not declared any such thing. No need to make up lies.




LOL! Wut?


Of course it is. It doesn't fit the worldview of our resident expert on everything (reference directed to eskimospy), so it must be tired and wrong. Duh. :whiste:

Everyone should accept your expertise on everything and move on!
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
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Xo2EC2j.jpg

So, then I says; 'More like a PEW too short!! Haw!! No, but seriously, how is Project Taqiyya going for you Barry?
 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,466
3,067
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WHICH IS BASED ON HIS UNDERSTANDING OF CATHOLICISM. WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

IF YOU THINK HIS INTERPRETATION IS WRONG THAT MEANS YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE OR UNDERSTANDING OF CATHOLICISM. OTHERWISE YOU HAVE NO BASIS FOR SAYING HE'S WRONG.

Is like the old joke about mules.

You'd have to smack him in the head with a 2x4 first to get his attention before he will listen.

And he's using that perception word that always proceeds a ton of bullshit these days.
 
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PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
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You have literally said in this thread that the Pope should not talk about politics so you are clearly not perfectly fine with him voicing opinions you don't agree with.

Wrong. Just because I think he shouldn't talk about something isn't the same as me wanting to restrict his right to do so. That's completely absurd. I don't want to silence his opinion, but I disagree with his opinion and think the church should stay out of politics.

If you don't want to suppress anything, then stop saying people shouldn't talk. That's step #1 in 'not suppressing'.

Now you've just delved into complete stupidity. Me saying you should n't say something is not the same as me suppressing your ability or right to do so. If I somehow tried to prevent you from saying something (legally or otherwise), that would be suppressing. Expressing my opinion on what the church/pope should say is clearly not suppressing anything.

So you don't think you know more about Catholicism than the Pope does but you are saying he has incorrectly stated that climate change is a religious issue, his basis for that being his interpretation of Catholicism.

Correct. I don't think it's a religious issue, he does. I think it's a political issue that the church need not get involved in. It takes a pretty big leap of logic (or lack of it) to convert that into "you know more about Catholicism than he does!".

I know it's hypocritical and you're trying to avoid that but it's too late. You already said it.

Baloney. You're attacking a made up position, not mine.

No, there is just literally no other possible meaning to what you wrote.

Yes, there are literally millions of other possible meanings to what I wrote, and you choose one (incorrect) one to latch onto. That's your problem, not mine.

IF YOU THINK HIS INTERPRETATION IS WRONG THAT MEANS YOU BELIEVE YOU HAVE SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE OR UNDERSTANDING OF CATHOLICISM.

You seem so hung up on this logical fallacy. He's wrong on saying it's a religious issue. I don't care what he's basing it on, nor does it mean I think I know more about catholicism than he does. I don't need to know anything about catholicism to decide if I think it's a political issue or religious one.

Religions have views on how the world should be and they should be as free to espouse them as anyone else is, regardless of the topic. I don't want to suppress anyone's speech.

Nor do I, your attributions notwithstanding. If I had said he shouldn't be allowed to say what he wants, that would be suppressing. He should be allowed to say whatever he wants, and I can still believe that he shouldn't. Being allowed to say something doesn't mean I have to think you should.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
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Of course not. He's just a liberal who happens to have become pope. Nothing wrong with that, but when he delves into politics (as he is doing), then his opinion on political matters should be promptly ignored.

Yet here you are whining about them instead of ignoring them. Take your own advice.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,069
55,594
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/facepalm

Please explain in detail how you can say that the Pope's determination that climate change is a Catholic religious issue is wrong without basing your counterargument in Catholicism.

Be as specific as you can.