Interesting... so let me guess... you're doing your MDPhD along with your engineering PhD you claimed to be studying for in this thread:
Enough ... first you're getting a PhD in engineering... now you're getting an MD-PhD... whatever suits the thread, correct?
Great, I said nothing of the type. Thanks for completely making up what was said, and completely dodging everything else. :roll:
What's so hard to understand? That the PhD is in engineering and I'm working on an MD? Why is it so hard for you to comprehend that the PhD is in engineering? My advisor has a PhD in polymer engineering and an MD with a focus in ophthalmology, if you need some kind of precedent. :roll:
Does your "advisor" know that youre a hypocrite? When do you apply empirical (scientific) evidence versus belief (religion) to evaluate your perspective? These things are diametrically opposed--since you didnt know, even as a "phd" in training. :roll:
Your logic is horribly flawed. Twist it however you like to make you content--flawed logic is flawed logic. I suggest you delete that thread before you make a bigger ass of yourself.
Is this really the direction that this forum is taking? Instead of actually addressing any points made in a response post, we'll simply say that the other person is wrong? How smart.
Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Is this really the direction that this forum is taking? Instead of actually addressing any points made in a response post, we'll simply say that the other person is wrong? How smart.
Are you claiming that science and philosophy are 100% mutually exclusive? You havent answered my question--when do you base your judgement, as a person/expert/scientist/clinician/whatever, on empirical (scientific) versus made-up (belief based) "data?" Do you just use what ever makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside for a given situation? Eg. abortion--belief based, cancer--empirical, or what? You cant have your cake and eat it too, ya know?
Why don't you tell me your first name, and myself and your advisor can talk about this thread... what do you think about that? After all, if you were sure of your points, and are indeed in that laboratory, you'd have no trouble doing that. I know that you have no trouble with making a fool of yourself in the privacy of the internet. I just wonder if you're as eager to make a fool of yourself in front of the entire academic community. But don't worry, I think you have a great future doing ads for the christian right.
Meuge, CycloWizard and any others that this applies to.
Drop the personal stuff or move it to PMs.
Anything that detracts from this thread may/will cause the thread to be locked.
The person that causes the thread to be locked will have a week to figure out why.
Ticked Off Mod
Drop the personal stuff or move it to PMs.
Anything that detracts from this thread may/will cause the thread to be locked.
The person that causes the thread to be locked will have a week to figure out why.
Ticked Off Mod
Nobody knows how life began on this planet. Nobody. There was nobody here to see it. Religious people think a God would be required to begin life and scientists think that it happened via natural processes. People of religion have faith in their belief and scientists are as filled with with their own brand of faith it certainly seems. And it is really quite astonishing to see just how fanatical scientific types can be. You would almost think that belief in God is like devil worship to the religious. Geez, will you die if science is wrong? Will it mean you're going to hell? The people jumping all over CW in this thread look to me to be almost mentally deranged. The amount of distortion and assumptions about what he has said here are staggering. What makes people smug, arrogant, rude, quick to anger, aggressive and vicious in attacking others. It can only come, in my opinion, from a deep hidden sense of personal inferiority. What somebody else thinks just threatens to tumble down my world? So I gotta destroy them before they destroy me? Hehe, and we actually have no real knowledge of how life really began. Nobody was here to see. But it can't be God, God damn it, cause I am just so f@cking sure.
How could there be a God to people bent over a microscope dissecting life into smaller and smaller parts who don't look up once in a while to the heavens of infinite stars? What is the value of knowledge that contains no being? What is a rose without its perfume in a garden? What is the value of life without a human heart? What is the purpose of life that does not live in the now and ride the tide of infinite flowing love. Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou.
Become nothing. Practice awe.
How could there be a God to people bent over a microscope dissecting life into smaller and smaller parts who don't look up once in a while to the heavens of infinite stars? What is the value of knowledge that contains no being? What is a rose without its perfume in a garden? What is the value of life without a human heart? What is the purpose of life that does not live in the now and ride the tide of infinite flowing love. Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou.
Become nothing. Practice awe.
I'm very sure of my points. However, you refuse to address any points I make. I'm sure you're a brilliant scientist, but you have no idea how to form an argument or phrase yourself in debate.
Thanks for actually reading. :thumbsup:
damn, two MSTPers? and one from WashU? mind if I ask you guys for advice when I start my applications?
Cyclo has the place down, and Meuge has my interests in onco/immuno.
Taking lessons in answering questions from Carl Rove?
And please just stop the farce. I have never used my status as an argument, so there really is no need for you to try to beat me in a "pissing contest". There is no need for you to invent a persona just so that you could wind up "winning", when there is nothing for you to actually win.
Sorry, I have to stop laughing... cause Moonbeam just decided to explain to us why ignorance is so blissful.
I don't need ignorance and religion in order to have faith... I don't need to purposefully ignore fact in order to adhere to a belief system that was formed in order to control the masses.
You want to talk about awe - learn something! So while you look out, see a vast universe, and bow to your ignorance of it... I am rewarded by the wondrous complexity of the universe - the detail that you literally praise people for overlooking.
I doubt anyone who has read this thread will disagree with my assertion that you have dodged just about every point I've made and resorted to personal attacks. Even on these counts I've called you out and received no answer.
And his point just went way over your head. I'll make a brief summary: come down off your high-horse, stop pretending that you know everything because you don't. Neither do I, but at least I admit it.
Personally, I don't know what a fraction of what you guys are talking about in the scientific sense. I understand the arguments that you are trying to make....but the data that you are basing it on just blows me away. I applaude both of you (CW & Meuge (and the others that have contributed)) for your hard work and dedication to learning about things that baffle the majority of us. I am a "scientist" only in the field of computers which really isn't anywhere near on par with you guys. I also have a condition known as AS (Asperger's Syndrome). I find it kinda funny, in an ironic sorta way, that someone can be classified as being Autistic while being a member of Mensa....but I digress.
With my background and "handicap", I am pre-ordained to a life of scrutinizing EVERYTHING. Unfortunately for me (and even moreso for my wife) I take/interpret everything LITERALLY. And I mean everything. This leads me to question faith infinately more than most. My wife and I cannot even discuss anything remotely religous without an extended period of silence afterwards.
I don't believe that there is a God, not because I think that it is a terrible idea or that the "fundies" are "IDiots", but because it just doesn't make sense. It seems as if it is based on a "moving the goal posts" defense. Thousands of years ago, the beliefs in all things created by God were taken at face value by the vast majority of the population. In those day, philosophers ruled the world. The scientists were few and far between. Thankfully for us, they didn't let the naysayers deter them from searching and finding out reason for things occuring around them and throughout the world. Thankfully for us, they didn't just suscribe to "God created it/makes it work that way so just follow what we say" logic/belief system that the religious leaders kept peddling.
I feel that science will eventually be able to prove how life was created. It may not be in my lifetime and I know that I am risking eternity in hell for my lack of faith, but, to me, God just doesn't make logical sense.
With my background and "handicap", I am pre-ordained to a life of scrutinizing EVERYTHING. Unfortunately for me (and even moreso for my wife) I take/interpret everything LITERALLY. And I mean everything. This leads me to question faith infinately more than most. My wife and I cannot even discuss anything remotely religous without an extended period of silence afterwards.
I don't believe that there is a God, not because I think that it is a terrible idea or that the "fundies" are "IDiots", but because it just doesn't make sense. It seems as if it is based on a "moving the goal posts" defense. Thousands of years ago, the beliefs in all things created by God were taken at face value by the vast majority of the population. In those day, philosophers ruled the world. The scientists were few and far between. Thankfully for us, they didn't let the naysayers deter them from searching and finding out reason for things occuring around them and throughout the world. Thankfully for us, they didn't just suscribe to "God created it/makes it work that way so just follow what we say" logic/belief system that the religious leaders kept peddling.
I feel that science will eventually be able to prove how life was created. It may not be in my lifetime and I know that I am risking eternity in hell for my lack of faith, but, to me, God just doesn't make logical sense.
Let us say instead that he didn't see my point because he is full of his own. I don't think I am over his head but way way under it. Knowledge is like the area of a circle, they say, where the more we know in the circle the more outside the circle there is we know we don't know. So rather than focus on how much more I must know than he does to have acquired such tremendous awe, let us instead say that I am vastly more ignorant than he.
And of course since I know so so much less there is also less chance that I am wrong. Here are some problems, for example, that arise when you know things:Meuge: I don't need ignorance and religion in order to have faith... I don't need to purposefully ignore fact in order to adhere to a belief system that was formed in order to control the masses.
M: This is called projecting your limited state of knowledge on others. You think that religion and ignorance are the same thing because you have seen them walk hand in hand. This is not scientific, however. It is a faith based on your limited examples and experience. It is a religious belief as ignorant as it describes. It is based on the arrogance that you fully understand the meaning of religion. Similarly you make the preposterous supposition that because religion has been used to control men that that is its real purpose, arrogance again, faith based on limited example. Same thing with the notion that religion is the intentional ignorance of fact.... By your definition, then, you are quite religious because any rational mind will see through your mental errors and realize that you reach conclusions that fit your faith.
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Personally, I don't know what a fraction of what you guys are talking about in the scientific sense. I understand the arguments that you are trying to make....but the data that you are basing it on just blows me away. I applaude both of you (CW & Meuge (and the others that have contributed)) for your hard work and dedication to learning about things that baffle the majority of us. I am a "scientist" only in the field of computers which really isn't anywhere near on par with you guys. I also have a condition known as AS (Asperger's Syndrome). I find it kinda funny, in an ironic sorta way, that someone can be classified as being Autistic while being a member of Mensa....but I digress.
With my background and "handicap", I am pre-ordained to a life of scrutinizing EVERYTHING. Unfortunately for me (and even moreso for my wife) I take/interpret everything LITERALLY. And I mean everything. This leads me to question faith infinately more than most. My wife and I cannot even discuss anything remotely religous without an extended period of silence afterwards.
I don't believe that there is a God, not because I think that it is a terrible idea or that the "fundies" are "IDiots", but because it just doesn't make sense. It seems as if it is based on a "moving the goal posts" defense. Thousands of years ago, the beliefs in all things created by God were taken at face value by the vast majority of the population. In those day, philosophers ruled the world. The scientists were few and far between. Thankfully for us, they didn't let the naysayers deter them from searching and finding out reason for things occuring around them and throughout the world. Thankfully for us, they didn't just suscribe to "God created it/makes it work that way so just follow what we say" logic/belief system that the religious leaders kept peddling.
I feel that science will eventually be able to prove how life was created. It may not be in my lifetime and I know that I am risking eternity in hell for my lack of faith, but, to me, God just doesn't make logical sense.
I don't think they can prove how it was created without inventing a time machine and sneezing on the planet, but they may be able to show logical ways that it could have got started. They may one day, even relatively soon, recreate life in the test tube. But the question of the existence of God has really nothing to do with this. God dies with the man made creation of life only if you assume that only God could have created life. But if God is a reflection of the Universe and the Universe is a reflection of God then the universe is alive because God is and God is alive because the universe is. The One is the love of the Other such that there is only Love. So you do not know God by logic but He finds you when you love. Do the experiment and see.
The early european natural scientists were not naysayers. What early scientist denied creation? They understood, unlike many Creationists and many atheists, that God is not a scientific theory. God created the world from nothing. That does not tell us about the world, but it does tell us about the relation between the world and God.
That is a logical fallacy. I think people who believe in God should stop looking for a reason to do it, or a scientific justification of their belief. If they just accept that their faith is irrational, we could all live easier. It doesn't mean you have to stop believing, just understand your beliefs for what they are.
"God created the world from nothing. That does not tell us about the world, but it does tell us about the relation between the world and God."
It's a statement. Nothing more.
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