Discussion Poll: Yes/No Full IGP version of mobile Ryzen 5 4600H?

[EliteRetard]

Reviews are quite positive for the 4900HS and it's IGP, I think it would be great if they offered lower cost H CPUs with that full IGP as well.
Reviews of the full 8 CU IGP show it's just as fast as (often much more than) a Nvidia MX150 / MX250 / MX330 / GT1030 (all rebadged same GPU)
Why force people to pay for all the compromises of a dGPU if they really don't need it? Higher price, weight, size, lower battery life etc.
Forcing people to the low performance U series is not the right attitude or answer either. "Only hardcore gam3rZ need high performance CPUS!"

A theoretical 4600HG (G for graphics, meaning FULL IGP) vs a U series + dGPU would be less complex and much cheaper to produce.
It should offer the same or better GPU and CPU performance in a similar total power envelope (15w CPU + 25w dGPU vs 35w to 45w APU).
Because of the dynamic nature of these new AMD APUs, they have the potential to entirely upset and change the current market.

I guess I'm just really enthusiastic about these new chips, and the large efficiency and performance gains they've brought.
I want to see designs using these powerful Ryzen H chips without a dGPU, the full IGP is good at no extra cost and fast enough for many.
Cutting down the IGP for no reason and trying to force it to also be a product differentiator is just a bad thing, the CPUs already do that.
Nobody is going to spend a lot more for a higher tier CPU they don't need just to get a better IGP, and it's disappointing to "settle for less".
Offering a full power IGP on cheaper tier CPUs however can pull people over from competitors that don't offer such performance for the price.
It literally costs nothing to keep the full IGP enabled on the lower tier chips, all the R&D manufacturing and hardware is physically there.

This is how I see things:

U series for the tech illiterate, for super light office work or web browsing only. Niche 90+ Wh units for maximum battery life.
HG series IGP ONLY for those who need a high performance CPU and sick of paying (cash, battery life, size, weight) for a dGPU they'll never use.
. . . 4600HG could be a great mid-range option, just the right mix of performance and efficiency, perfect for enthusiasts and light gaming normies.
H plus dGPU for the hardcore gamers or anybody who needs GPU power for specific workstation tasks.

What say the rest of you?

Edit: Slightly modified to suggest a full lineup of HG parts that would offer the full IGP. I think there could/should be full IGP only options from R3 all the way to R9. I focused on the R5 since it would be a great mainstream option, and the R9 is already a full IGP (and they need to offer laptops using them without dGPU). The current units with cut down IGP can be used in laptops with a dGPU for those who want that.

Random example: All else being equal (performance, chassis, screen, keyboard, wifi etc) what would you choose?

Intel U series + MX330 for $750 w/ 6hr battery and 4.5lb weight (higher cost due to added dGPU)
AMD HG (full IGP only) for $675 w/ 8hr battery and 4lb weight (higher battery life, lower weight due to lack of dGPU)

In actuality it's likely the AMD system would have a higher performing CPU since it can use the full 35-45w vs the 15w of a U series.
Unfortunately AMD isn't offering such a CPU/configuration because they are trying to conform to the standards Intel has set up to now.
Maybe, hopefully, by voicing my opinions and getting others to share we can catch the attention of somebody who can make it happen.

 

[Yeroon]

It does, actually. AMD making stupid decisions cost them hundreds of millions in lost revenues, which in turn gave us a decade of products ranging from "okay" to "abysmal failure". Pardon me if, as a consumer, I don't want them screwing up again. A 8CU midrange APU wouldn't cause that kind of damage, but repeated mistakes along that line would. If they're going to do some things right, then they may as well do everything right.

And to reiterate, as a consumer, the astounding performance and battery life of Asus' 4900HS laptop shows me that maybe iGPUs are just a bad idea for laptops anyway. AMD should have seriously considered shaving off some or all of the iGPU instead of trying to put 8CUs on their top-end mobile APUs. They're already down from 11CUs to 8. Anyone still wondering why? AMD isn't pushing HSA anymore. Instead they're pushing CCIX interconnects in the server space to reduce latency/increase coherency between PCIe-connected devices and CPUs.

They may have stopped making as big a deal about it from the consumer side, but they are still working towards it.
CDNA2 is supposed to get cache-coherent memory access between cpu + gpu:

AMD Announces the CDNA and CDNA2 Compute GPU Architectures

AMD at its 2020 Financial Analyst Day event unveiled its upcoming CDNA GPU-based compute accelerator architecture. CDNA will complement the company's graphics-oriented RDNA architecture. While RDNA powers the company's Radeon Pro and Radeon RX client- and enterprise graphics products, CDNA will...

www.techpowerup.com

 

[DrMrLordX]

They may have stopped making as big a deal about it from the consumer side, but they are still working towards it.
CDNA2 is supposed to get cache-coherent memory access between cpu + gpu:

Exactly! They've shifted their focus more towards PCIe-connected devices (CCIX).

 

[Yeroon]

It opens up a lot more doors than just pcie connected devices, if you consider that IF connected gpu has been in the works as well. At least, to me it looks like they went for HSA at the exascale level, instead of consumer.

I'm really hoping that next gen APU is actually CDNA2 based, allowing some absolutely killer engineering type laptops.

Anyways, probably the wrong thread for this discussion.

 

[Shivansps]

AMD said that H APUs are not only about higher TDP, but also intended to be used along with a dgpu... so every H SKU out there is going to be paired with a dGPU making a bigger the IGP pointless.

I think the overall cost of making such a device with such SKU kinda defeats the purpose. Even if it was a U SKU @ 25W.

 

[Thunder 57]

No, I didn't. There are other reasons NOT to launch this SKU. I gave the main reasons.

And those are good reasons, too.

So sorry I used logic and reasoning. Next time I'll just say "no" without backing up anything to make sure not to hurt anyone's feelings. Actually no, I won't. Forget that. I'll just keep hurting people's feelings. Every time someone starts a "why doesn't <insertvendorhere> launch an SKU I'd really like" thread, if there are good reasons why NOT to do so, someone should come in and say quite matter-of-factly exactly why not. Remember the $250 3600x2?

Question - Rethinking AMD consumer CPU lineup in the situation of chiplet scarcity

If we look at the higher end of the consumer CPU lineup by AMD (beginning with Ryzen 3600), and the fact that AMD is unable to deliver a highly clocked 6+6 core CPU and effectively offers no high core count CPU at this point, and the fact that the high quality chiplets are better used in server...

forums.anandtech.com

(that was a real gem of a thread)

A hypothetical 4600HG isn't that idiotic, but it's the same basic idea. Someone thinks they know better than AMD or Intel or . . . somebody, and wants to forum warrior their way to victory. Especially AFTER the entire product lineup has been announced.

Too true. It was certainly good for a laugh. I gave that guy a hard time, because the idea was stupid. Here, I wouldn't mind a 4600H/4800H with 8CU's. I'm not sure why they trimmed the CU's but it's not a deal breaker. I wouldn't mind a 4600H with a full fat iGPU so I could play older games better on it. I'm not going to bother with new AAA games on any laptop TBH. This idea has merit, the 3600x2 did not. AMD did what they wanted though, and we're stuck with their (great) options.

It opens up a lot more doors than just pcie connected devices, if you consider that IF connected gpu has been in the works as well. At least, to me it looks like they went for HSA at the exascale level, instead of consumer.

I'm really hoping that next gen APU is actually CDNA2 based, allowing some absolutely killer engineering type laptops.

Anyways, probably the wrong thread for this discussion.

I wouldn't hold my breath. That said, there is certainly a market for what you are talking about so I wouldn't be surprised to see something like that in the future.

 

[Topweasel]

In this case a well configured G14 happens to fall at $1450, a good value for what it is (based on reviews).
How could it hurt Asus or AMD to offer the exact same 4900HS laptop without the RTX2060 for a lower price?
If they simply reduce the cost by the actual BOM, they have increased the laptops profit when taken as a percentage.
The RTX2060 retails somewhere above $300, perhaps the BOM is $250...and a dGPU comes with other compromises too.

Do you have to order Dell's for a business's? I do, one particular one always bugged me. The E6530 and E6540 Latitudes, Prior E6520's could be ordered with and without basic dGPU. The E6530 and E6540, with the E6540 being the first to actually off a competent dGPU, did not let you choose to build the PC without a dGPU if a 4c i7 was selected. The reason was basically down to the fact that they needed a beefier cooler for the i7. So rather than making 4 coolers, 1 for a 2c, 1 for 2c +Dgpu, 1 for 4c, 1 for 4c+dgpu. These are not just Dell computers (which means volume) but again series of Latitudes, Dell's biggest sellers. So you have what maybe some of the highest volume Laptops outside of Macbooks. They could have saved many pennies by right sizing the cooler for the system. But instead they decided to do go with 2 coolers and lockout dGPU upgrades from 2c systems while forcing them on 4c systems. The point being a lot more math falls into the decision than just BOM.

Look at Asus. They partnered with AMD, paid up front and worked out the requirements for the HS productline to get first dibs at the chips. They probably have the most premiere implementation of the HS productline with the G14. A close to thin and light that punches in the territory of the full size gaming laptops. Guess where the g14, the A15, and the future G15 AMD lineups fit in the Asus performance pyramid? Need help? At the bottom. Why? Because it would take to much time and money to develop the alternatives.

The point of both of these examples is even in high volume solutions. Or even though you are the closest launch partner of a new product launch. There is a lot more decision making that goes into the choice then just R&D and BoM. A G14 without a dGPU isn't nearly as unique a product, it won't sell as well and they may be stuck with unused stock. Unlike with CPU choice each of these MB's basically require a different mb stock for each GPU configuration (which is why 90% of the boards are 8GB integrated mem instead of offering 4GB and more 16GB options). Sure there are purchasers and like all products the few people that would purchase them will always think there would be enough to make it work. But the fact is Asus after working with AMD isn't willing to take a chance on their higher performance gaming system. Why do you think they would go through the effort to develop a iGPU version of a gaming system. Look at Gigabyte. They have had a lot of success with AMD MB's and one of the better Radeon GPU companies. Yet because of when they were in their refresh cycle (no major redesigns, just refreshes with new chips), they decided against doing any Ryzen 4k Laptops entirely. Going only for 10th gen refreshes.

I have mentioned it before. Hell I predicted even with peformance wins the the H and HS products wouldn't have a whole lot of success. The IGPU even a full performance one means nothing in this product range. Companies that would use them are already planning on using them with DGPU's because they are going for 70-100w power envelopes at min with these types of systems. With the power unlocked its a wash between the systems and the impetus in building a new system is going to be lower. Someone looking at the perf level of a 9750H or higher CPU and 2070/2080 is unlikey not to make a purchase because maybe they could have gotten 3% higher performance with a 4900H or slightly higher clocks with the video card because of the cooling budget slide over. That's where AMD is pulling a rabbit out with the HS product line. It at least gives companies like Asus has proven a cheaper and easier path into the Razer like market with an extremely portable but competent gaming system without the 5 million things that Razer has to do to get theirs worked out well. In the end the crown is the U SKU's. They are what will drive AMD's mobile sales. That's the ones that will get the design wins. Any talk about any other Renoir products is near pointless in comparison. The H products keep Intel honest, the HS give them room to breathe in a market that really doesn't want to change, the U's, those are the ones that people should be looking at and no configuration of iGPU CU's and Core's really matter much on any other chip. Those offer something that isn't available in a product stack that is still growing and always looking for a better solution. Everything else is pretty much AMD trying to find ways offer CPU's that don't make the cut for those.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Here, I wouldn't mind a 4600H/4800H with 8CU's. I'm not sure why they trimmed the CU's but it's not a deal breaker. I wouldn't mind a 4600H with a full fat iGPU so I could play older games better on it. I'm not going to bother with new AAA games on any laptop TBH. This idea has merit, the 3600x2 did not. AMD did what they wanted though, and we're stuck with their (great) options.

That's pretty much it. I just don't think I'm going to fret over that SKU or anything. OEMs are going to put a dGPU with an SKU like that anyway, so what would be the point?

@Topweasel

That's a pretty good analysis actually.

I did have another thought. AMD does have a competent semi-custom business. If anyone thinks they can make the world catch on fire with a 6c/12t Renoir with 8CUs - regardless of the TDP/cTDP - they could try to put together a product targeted to a specific market segment using an APU that isn't normally available on the market. AMD will hook you up if you have the backing to make it happen.

It would be an extraordinary amount of work to bring a product to market in that fashion, but if anyone thinks it's that good, well, have at it.

 

[Topweasel]

That's pretty much it. I just don't think I'm going to fret over that SKU or anything. OEMs are going to put a dGPU with an SKU like that anyway, so what would be the point?

@Topweasel

That's a pretty good analysis actually.

I did have another thought. AMD does have a competent semi-custom business. If anyone thinks they can make the world catch on fire with a 6c/12t Renoir with 8CUs - regardless of the TDP/cTDP - they could try to put together a product targeted to a specific market segment using an APU that isn't normally available on the market. AMD will hook you up if you have the backing to make it happen.

It would be an extraordinary amount of work to bring a product to market in that fashion, but if anyone thinks it's that good, well, have at it.

That's the thing. I totally could see MS wanting 8CU 6 cores for the Surface Pro and Surface book. They aren't shy against using AMD chips, have a great partnership with the Xbox. Offer it as a Semi custom just for MS. But I can't see them ever really making configs like this a general offering. They still won't have the laptop penetration they should but this will be miles different then the BD APU days where they basically were offering every combination to get them to sell as either laptops or desktop CPU's. AMD should be able to get these with minimal non-salvagable dies, without going overboard on the skus. The one market I could see a general purpose 6c with 8cu is probably desktop, where no matter where it slots, if someone is buying an APU, they are getting it to be an APU and more CU's the better.

 

[Shivansps]

That's the thing. I totally could see MS wanting 8CU 6 cores for the Surface Pro and Surface book. They aren't shy against using AMD chips, have a great partnership with the Xbox. Offer it as a Semi custom just for MS. But I can't see them ever really making configs like this a general offering. They still won't have the laptop penetration they should but this will be miles different then the BD APU days where they basically were offering every combination to get them to sell as either laptops or desktop CPU's. AMD should be able to get these with minimal non-salvagable dies, without going overboard on the skus. The one market I could see a general purpose 6c with 8cu is probably desktop, where no matter where it slots, if someone is buying an APU, they are getting it to be an APU and more CU's the better.

Was the point? AMD can sell an 4800U at lower price for MS and be done with it. No need for special SKUs that may be end up as being a renamed 4800U... actually, that cost more.

 

[Topweasel]

Was the point? AMD can sell an 4800U at lower price for MS and be done with it. No need for special SKUs that may be end up as being a renamed 4800U... actually, that cost more.

That's not how it works. AMD offering a 4600UMS allows MS to offer a different spec product for a different feature set for a different price. The whole market is like this like it costs MS that much more from their 900-2100 surfaces. Why not just cut the price on the second from the top and sell that one. It gives AMD another Bin for certain defect configurations, with a sku they can charge more than a 4600u for it. MS gets better igpu then anything in the market, a chip they can even label themselves (Ryzen 7 Surface edition anyone?), they feel special. Everyone wins. Look at the 4800hs, a CPU AMD worked with Asus to spec out, worked out system configuration requirements, Asus granted a limited exclusivity. AMD gets a high profile, new laptop design win, with them out at launch, something we haven't seen before. Semi custom doesn't in its own have to bring in all the money to be profitable. MS doesn't even have to pay more and probably pay less, and all of a sudden they have a happy partner and a product in a market they haven't had any success in.