Poll: Torque & Horsepower

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
OK, I'd just like to see what the general consensus is here. Every week I get in a discussion about Honda engines and how they put out pitiful amounts of torque. For instance, a dodge 2.2L I-4 (Non-Turbo) puts out 93 Horses (big whoop), and 122ft-lbs of torque. Now take an Integra GSR (next step down from a Type R), which puts out 195 Horses, which is quite nice. But when it comes to torque, it's putting out only 129ft-lbs! That's only 7 more than a 93 horse engine. But many people say "Who cares about torque - it doesn't mean anything". So I'd like to see what you guys think - is torque important?
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
47
91
Hell yeah torque is important. If you ain't got no torque, that means that you have to rev it up in the higher RPM's to keep the engine happy.
 

loogie

Banned
Oct 18, 1999
2,478
0
0
Horsepower is a function of torque....I'm not positive but I think it is Torque*(RPM/5252).
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
Yes - it is, but there's no constant ratio between the two. It varies from engine to engine depending on it's valving and bore/stroke.
 

Ken g6

Programming Moderator, Elite Member
Moderator
Dec 11, 1999
16,662
4,603
75
Torque would mean nothing if we all had IVTs. (Infinitely Variable Transmissions) :)
 

HaVoC

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,223
0
0
For a very elegant explanation of the entire HP vs Torque issue...check out this link.

From my reading there, basically TORQUE is what PUSHES you back against the seat which is why many argue that big Detroit V-8s are much more fun to drive than rice burners. However, those riceburners are still competitive because they can pull for LONGER before the driver has to shift, meaning they can deliver useful power at higher RPMs than the pushrod V8s.

Personally I prefer "feel the throttle in your seat" type of acceleration that torquey V8s deliver. :)
 

Sacotool

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2000
2,877
0
0
My truck (97 Chevy 1500 Silverado) has the 350 V8 Vortec engine. It puts out 330ft-lbs of torque@2800RPM and 255hp@4600RPM. If you nail the throttle it slams you back in your seat due to all that torque, but in reality it accelerates 0-60 in about 8 seconds at best. I prefer the seat of the pants feel of a torquey engine rather than a buzzy import.

Also, all that torque makes it a very good load hauler or stump puller.
 

KingHam

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,670
0
0
The word on the street is that Honda's new VTEC will correct this problem. The new Integra is rumored to have 220 horsepower and ~200 lbs. of torque.

KingHam
 

-SpYrL-

Senior member
Nov 5, 1999
328
0
0
Why not just have both like my Corvette? 375HP at the rear wheel (+400 HP at the engine) and really good torque (not sure about exact amount)

-SpYrL-
 

shabby

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,782
45
91
200 ft/lbs of torque in an integra chassis will be hella sweet, cant wait for that :)
Of course i also cant wait for the new impreza turbo, kinda like a dsm clone :D
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
For those that voted "It's not as important as horsepower", could I ask why? Just out of curiousity pretty much.
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
0
Well since I used to tweak cars for a living a while back I could give you guys a bit of insight. Everybody's basicly right torque is important, but so is horsepower. It just depends on your particular situation and that could entail a lot of variables. In general hp is first priority with torque being a close second. Reason being you can compensate for reduced torque by having an engine with a higher rpm limit then make up for less torque by using lower transmission/rear differential ratios.

Genocide, if you could give me a particular situation that you had in mind maybe I could be more specific on what how and why.
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
0
Shabby, it won't happen. You won't get 200ft-lb of torque from a GSR engine without resorting to nitrous or a turbo and even then it will be difficult. The GSR engine was designed for high horsepower, hence it turns to 8k rpm to have high enough efficiency to develop the 100hp per liter that it does. To survive at that rpm they had to give it a very short stroke to reduce piston speed enough so it won't fly apart. Reducing the stroke of the crankshaft reduces the mechanical advantage of the engine reducing it's torque. The pistons also had to be lightened a lot to survive at those speeds. If I'm not mistaken the GSR engine only has 2 piston rings instead of 3, has a very short skirt and already uses forged pistons and rods. That's a very impressive little engine with a hell of a lot of pretty advanced technology incorporated into it. It's rod bearings are narrower than usual and get this... it has a crystalized surface for oil retention and reduced drag friction. When the GSR engine first came out the only other engines that had those kind of rod bearings were found in formula 1 cars.
 

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
47
91
I can't see them getting 200lb/ft of torque out of the new Integra. Think about it, the 3.0 DOHC V6 in the Accord gets 200HP/200lb-ft.

And check out the specs for the Euro Uber-Accord ;)

2.2 liter VTEC inline-4 w/220HP @ 7200RPM and 163lb-ft torque @ 6700RPM & 5-speed manual

200lb/ft is wishful thinking for a 4-banger Integra ;)
 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,084
1
71
Besides, with lots torque (my 305 does 265 @ 2400), you can be going any speed, and if you want to pass somebody, you don't have to put the pedal down as much.
I know that when I'm doing around 40 miles, if I need to pass, just a small push and I'm past the car.
But my 305 only has 165hp @ 5500 :(
Gotta work on those intake and exhaust systems :p
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
eia, I take it that short stroke design was incorporated into most of the Honda engines? Even the Civic Si that gets 160HP and only about 100ft-lbs of torque (I think). Is the reason for that power output the same as the GS-R's?
 

shabby

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,782
45
91
Ya i doubt it'll happen too, although the integra 2/2.2L engine might get around 160-170 ft/lbs of torque.
Imo i think everyone should switch to turbo's :D Saab/volvo/vw/subaru is doing it, why not honda? :)
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,155
59
91
Torque and horsepower are directly related. You can't have one without the other. The reason small engines have relatively low torque is that they have low horsepower at the lower rpm's.
Example: Build a 300 horsepower V-6 and a 300 horsepower 454 V-8.
They have the same horsepower, but not the same torque. Why? Because the larger engine hits its hp peak at a much lower rpm. A big-block engine might have, say 300 hp at only 2000 rpm's.
No way a normally aspirated small engine can accomplish this. This is why larger engines have sometimes have lower horsepower but much more torque. This is also why they feel more powerful in the "seat of the pants".
The answer to the question "which is better, torque or horsepower" is simply, both. Every engine is a compromise based on what it was engineered to do.
It all depends on what you want to do. If you want to accelerate, then a lower rpm, high torque engine is the way to go. Go to any local dragstrip and look at what the majority of racers are running.(I'm not talking about professionals, I mean the real life racers). The vast, vast majority of powerplants are large displacement big block Chevrolets. Why? Because you can limit them to between 6 and 7000 rpm's, and build plenty of reliable, maintenance free horsepower/torque. Sizes from stock up to 815 cubic inches are available depending on the size of your wallet.
Go to other types of racing and you'll find higher revving, smaller engines capable of up to 15,000 rpm's. It just depends on what you need.

As far as turbo and supercharging(and nitrous) go, they are great because they make the engine act like a larger one by forcing much more air into the combustion chamber than the engine could ever suck in normally. If someone argues that a forced-induction small engine is better than a normally aspirated large engine, you can counter by saying you can always force-induct the larger one, too.
In terms of pure power, with everything else being the same, bigger engines are always better.
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
Hey if you ask me, they should stuff a V6 in the Integra - Imagine that. That little car with buttloads of torque would be a blast!
 

deepcover

Member
Sep 28, 2000
65
0
0
I have to admit, I do like the "kick in the pants" feel of acceleration in my Lexus IS300.
3.0 L Inline6 with 215 HP and 218ft-lbs@3800. It may not be a total screamer 0-60, but it is fun to drive at 3270 Lbs total weight.
 

Viperoni

Lifer
Jan 4, 2000
11,084
1
71
(affordable) Cruiser of my dreams:
1996 Impala SS
350 with 260hp @ 550 and 330lb/f @ 2500 (?)
Forgot the torque rpm spec....

No problem lighting the meats in first, can even chirp them good going into second :p