Poll: Torque & Horsepower

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eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
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YBS1, I really did not want to have to do this but now I guess I must explain the subtleties that make your statement wrong. Sigh...

If you were to MEASURE engine performance then that would hold true. But we are not discussing MEASUREING but rather DEVELOPING torque and horsepower. How can I explain this... ok, if your theorem is correct then an engine spinning at 600rpm will have exactly half the horsepower of an engine spining at 1200rpm and so on. We both know that the development of hp and torque is a curve and not a line. You can mathematically measure hp by Torque*RPM/5252=Horsepower but in the real world if you spin an engine twice as fast you will not get twice the horsepower. Again the difference is measurement where this formula applies, and development where this formula does not apply.

Your theorem that crankshaft stroke length and connecting rod length does not have an effect on torque output of a motor, well it does, because of the mechanical advantage increase or decrease givin by changing stroke distance will directly affect torque. Do yourself a big favor call a local facility in your area that has an engine dyno and ask them that. Ask them "will changeing crankshaft stroke length change torque output?" Better yet, call several facilities and see what they all tell you (it will be the same) If you won't take it from me, then maybe you'll take it from them. Oh by the way a good place to call is AEM (advanced engine management) in anahiem california. They are a large and respected name in engine performance parts manufacturing and tuning, they have a dyno on the facility. Ask them about your theorem that rod length, bore diameter, and stroke length has no direct bearing on torque development.

I use many methods to tailor torque development to match the curve needed. The largest adjustment can be found with modifying crank stroke length and rod length. Smaller adjustments can be made with varying valve timing, lift,duration, and lobe geometry, intake runner length,size, shape,exhaust manifold runner length size, shape. The smallest torque adjustments can be made through ignition timing adjustments, air/fuel ratio adjustments at specific rpms, etc.

I don't know how else to explain to you that you're wrong about these things except to direct you to other engine builders. Maybe with all of us telling you the same thing, maybe you'll accept it then. The largest impact on torque performance you can make is by changing rod length and stroke length.

If everything else is an open adjustment inculding bore size and crank stroke I can make you an engine that develops 300ft-lbs of torque at 2000rpm then change rod length and stroke length on that same engine then develop 350ft-lbs of torque at that same 2000rpm. Heck without changing anything but the cam timing I can give you at least a 10ft-lb +/- adjustment on torque at that same 2000rpm on the same engine.

Just call up some other engine builders and see if your theorems about stroke length being not directly related to torque productions holds up in their experiences.
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
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Bigshooter, nope you wouldn't want the type r engine in your blazer :) although it does try to beef up lower end torque by having two different intake runner lengths, the longer runner for increased lower rpm torque then a shorter runner opening up at higher rpm to enhance hp. It would make your blazer feel like it was running on 2 cylinders till it got to 5500rpm. 120hp per liter, it's not hard to match or beat that at all. But to acheive that in a street legal car that meets emisions and still meets dependability standards and is mass produced.... WOW, that's an unmatched feat. A lot of people in that past said it would impossible to do on a mass production level.... I'm glad to see that there are manufacturers out there (honda) that didn't know what impossible meant.
 

YBS1

Golden Member
May 14, 2000
1,945
129
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eia430, It's become quite obvious from your last post that we have been the victims of a misunderstanding. If you will go back and read my 1st post you will notice I never said turning an engine at twice the rpms will give you twice the torque. I said that an engine producing xxxlb.-ft. of torque at a certain rpm will produce xxx amount of horsepower. Then, another engine producing the same amount of torque, yet at twice the rpms will produce two times the horsepower at that engine speed.

Also in my 1st post, I had stated that a motor design favoring stroke over bore will produce more torque...actually, I said "smooth and tractable". The fact that you are arguing with me, yet saying the same thing I said further leads me to believe you either misunderstood me or I had said it in a confusing way. The point I was trying to make is this, if you take two motors of the same displacement and only look at the bore and stroke, the one with the longer stroke will not always make more torque, it depends on many other variables. However, like I said in that post "all other things being equal" then yes, the one with the longer stroke will produce more torque.

I'm not sure if I expressed it in a confusing way or you simply read something into it that wasn't there, but it seems as if we are on the same track now.
 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
2,355
0
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"I use many methods to tailor torque development to match the curve needed. The largest adjustment can be found with modifying crank stroke length and rod length. Smaller adjustments can be made with varying valve timing, lift,duration, and lobe geometry, intake runner length,size, shape, exhaust manifold runner length size, shape. The smallest torque adjustments can be made through ignition timing adjustments, air/fuel ratio adjustments at specific rpms, etc."

Yep, he's right in there, take "lift, duration & lobe geometry", as I mentioned before you can purchase 'Taxi pak' camshafts, that increase torque where you need it (1500 to 3500 RPM), at the cost of a slight decrease in BHP. Hence Many of the more upmarket new cars have VCT valvetrains, where there are multiply cam lobs for the same valve, so at low revs a torquey lob is used & at high revs a revie lob is used. Also as far as "intake runner length, size, shape" are concerned, have you may have noticed many newer cars have varible length intake maifolds?. Well this is because for good BHP up high its best to get Short fat runners, that help at higher RPM, while for torque its best to have long, narrow runners. Hence many cars have dual runner type inlet manifolds with butterfly valves that open & close depending on the RPM.

Consequently, because of the abovementioned reasons (multi-varible cam profiles & multi-varible inlet tracts) any such mathematical formula, as YBS'S, gets thrown out of the window, because you could virtually say, such equiped cars have 2 different engines, one for low range Torque & another for high range horsepower.
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
0
Ybs1, we might have been victims of misunderstanding, but I'll clarify which statement I had trouble accepting. You said..

"One last thing, torque has no direct relation to size of bore and length of stoke, or amount of air/fuel being consumed (meaning you can't just figure out torque output by knowing those variables)."

Bore, if you take two identical engines in every way and increase the bore size on one, you will increase displancement on that motor increasing torque.

Length of stroke, if you take two identical engines in every way and increase the stroke you will increase both displacement of the engine and the mechanical advantage of the crank, increasing torque greatly.

Amount of air/fuel if you have two identical engines in every way and increase the amount of air/fuel in one of them through any means, turbocharger, more efficient intake/exhaust, or whatever, if one two of identical motors is able to burn more air/fuel it will release more energy, it will increase torque.

As to not being able to calculate hp and torque based on bore, stroke, amount of fuel used etc, etc, go to this link

http://www.audietech.com/dm2.htm

Their engine math program will output:
power, torque, volumetric efficiency, pumping loss, port pressure, cylinder pressure, and port velocity curves.

With the input of:
RPM, Bore, Stroke, Rod Length, Number of Cylinders (up to 3), Trapped Compression Ratio, Crankcase Compression Ratio, Carburetor Diameter, Inlet Track Length, Air/Fuel Ratios, Induction Method, Piston Induction Port Dimensions, Reed Dimensions & Material Rotary Induction, Valve Timing & Dimensions, Transfer duct dimensions, Exhaust Port dimensions / shape, Auxiliary Exhaust Port dimensions, Shared / Individual Expansion Chamber, Expansion Chamber Shape

If you're going to argue that you cannot calculate engine power and/or torque from bore, stroke length etc, I suggest you give audietech a call, maybe they can learn from you on how it's impossible to do what their doing.

If you are even unsure on my predicted torque increases from events as I stated above, please run them by any commercial engine builder that you trust to be qualified. A few suggestions are Wolfe engeneering in El Cajon California, or Stillen Motorsports in Costa Mesa California, or Advanced Engine Management in Anehiem California.


Who knows... I could be dead wrong but I guess you owe it to yourself to at least find out.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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Until you drive a high torque vehicle, you don't know what you're missing (unless you're into whiney engines that must be run at 5000RPM to make any power whatsoever)

mmmm, 245HP, 460LB/ft :)
 

VoodooExtreme

Golden Member
Jan 25, 2000
1,907
0
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Hey!

What do u guys think about the new Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution VI?
2.0 liter / 280 hp
Torque: 510Nm at 3500rpm,YEAH!
Me like rice :p
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
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0
Demon-Xanth Let me politely remind you that the fastest, best handleing cars in the world (formula 1 cars) all have "whinny" engines that rev past 14000rpm. Heck even the big block top fuel dragster engines rev past 9000rpm now. So you might say that "whinny" is what makes real power bud.

 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
0
Sorry bigshooter - all I could remember was seeing an Integra engine /w 195HP/129ft-lbs torque. My bad =)
And eia, thanks for the input on this thread! Some very interesting stuff...
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
0
Genocide, I guess we got a little off track with the debate here..:) but to answer more towards your original topic.

It really depends on your particular use (same old answer) if you plan on drag racing, or road racing, or slalom race, or whatever. Also other considerations such as fuel economy longevity of engine, cost, etc. The more specifics you can provide the more accurate I can be with suggestions as to which cars/motors to look into for your intended purpose. Then by no means is the the final say because my exposure and knowledge comprise of a very small percentage of what is out there.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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EIA: ever spin readline at a red light? Kinda kills the stealth mode launches when some guy is creeping way the hell into an intersection and you wanna tree him :)

And top fuel dragsters MUST do the high RPMs because of thier gearing. They are limited to a 3.20:1 rear end and the closest thing to a transmission is a clutch. If they could only spin 7000RPM they'd be killed on the far end.

On the street, sometimes 3250RPM is enough to get the job done well.
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
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<< And top fuel dragsters MUST do the high RPMs because of thier gearing >>


The high end drag cars have no gearing: they're direct drive.
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
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Genocide: There must be a rear gear. Which is mandated to be 3.20:1. I stated that in my post.
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
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From what I've read - there are no gears - therfore no ratios. That's what direct drive is...

At least thats what I saw in Car and Driver, and I think they're a good source of info for something like that

But don't get me wrong, I'm no expert on drag cars so I could be wrong...
 

DABANSHEE

Banned
Dec 8, 1999
2,355
0
0
Well maybe that 3.20:1 is the ratio of the final drive, ie the differential, even cars without gearboxes still have to have a differential.
 

PG

Diamond Member
Oct 25, 1999
3,426
44
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Direct drive as in no transmission, just a clutch. But if you have an axle you have a ring gear and pinion gear. There can be a wide variety of gear ratios for the ring and pinion. I had a pickup with 4.10 gears once, it was great for pulling. I had a car with a 2.47 rear axle ratio which was good for highway cruising. Have you ever taken the cover off a rear axle?

PG
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
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Yeah, the way I worded that was a little weird. Obviously there's going to be some gears in the drivetrain (as in the differential), what I meant was that there is no gearbox there.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,158
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<<The high end drag cars have no gearing: they're direct drive. >>

Nope. They have no transmissions, but they do have rear end gears. 3:90 ratio, I believe.
They are considered direct drive because of no transmission....they start off by not engaging the clutch all the way, and gradually apply it down the track. It is a real science to apply the max amount at any given time and not blow the tires off with 6000+ horsepower on tap.


edit: just read someone's post that said they are geared 3:20-1, that may be correct. Either way, they don't run much of a gear in the rear end by normal drag car standards.
Example: I run a drag car that has a truck body, with 16.5 wide by 33&quot; slicks....My rear end ratio is 5:57-1. Then again, I &quot;only&quot; have 650 or so horsepower, not 6000hp. :)
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
0
Demon-xanth, the others are right, the 3.20 to one is not a transmission gear that you shift, it is the final drive or the part that turns the rotating motion to a plane that becomes perpendicular to the original to be in the same plane as the rotating wheels. It is not something you can &quot;shift&quot;. Top fuel dragster motors use every trick in the book to make as much power as human knowledge allows. Current estimates (actual figures are held top secret by each group)place hp at around the 6000hp mark. They have massive displacement, they use nitro methane fuels (maximum engergy density and efficient burn) they all have positive displacement superchargers and consume fuel at a rate of 15gal in under 3 sec. There is nothing that exists that they are not already using if it is to their advantage and is allowable by the rules. Spinning at a higher rpm allows higher port velocities, higher turbulence, more homogenous air/fuel mixing, allows greater cylinder packing, allows greater cylinder scavenging, and bottom line spinning greater rpms(to a certain point) allows more horsepower and torque to be developed due to increased efficiency. If you wanna make any real power be it a big v-8 or a small 4 you need to spin pretty high rpms. The old addage that v-8's don't need to spin high rpms to make power is simply untrue and is blured by too many things. First it is blurred by it's displacement. When you have 5.6+ liters of course you don't have to spin very fast to beat a 2.0 liter 4 it's like a 300lb guy picking on a 100lb kid then being proud that he can beat him. Secondly most v-8's out there are not build well hence 6500rpm is their operational limit. To exceed that will not gain them very much more (inefficient breathing) or it might make the engine self-destruct (engine balance and harmonics are not up to par) Bottom line is any engine independent of size must spin faster to develop it's maximum power generation. It's just not every engine that is build well enough to take advantage of that or even survive at high rpms.
 

Pacfanweb

Lifer
Jan 2, 2000
13,158
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<<Current estimates (actual figures are held top secret by each group)place hp at around the 6000hp mark. They have massive displacement,>>

The engines are big, but only 500 CID. I say &quot;only&quot;, because it is very common to see 500-700+ CID engines in everyday race cars. (You can go out and buy any cubic engine you want to if you have the $$$, and they are not as expensive as you might think.) IHRA Pro Stock cars are currently limited to 815 CID, but they can only run 2 carburetors and gas, as opposed to 98% nitromethane in Funny Car and Top Fuel.
 

LAUST

Diamond Member
Sep 13, 2000
8,957
1
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My fav is to watch the launch of top fuelers in slow-mo it's amazing how much power you witness from those cars.. only 4000 HP short of some of the Jet engines in our military planes ain't bad
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
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Demon xanth, oh yeah about treeing people at lights...:) A little story a car that I built an engine for (car was a 87 crx, engine was a 1.8 totaly rebuilt running 23lbs boost)and we took on another car at a freeway onramp. The other car was a viper and we egged him on like crazy :) when his light turned green (we had to go by his since both will not go green at same time) we punched it. The viper being rear drive and us being front drive out of the hole he hooked up and got a carlength on us at the start. No sweat though, our little crx turns in 127mph trap speeds in the quarter mile. We blew past him like he was in reverse when our boost kicked in (no boost till about 4500rpm, huge t4-t5 hybrd turbo on a little 1.8 liter) It's heartwarming to know that a little crx with a bit of work can shame a viper.
 

eia430

Senior member
Sep 7, 2000
369
0
0
Pacfanweb, 500cid... only? that's over 8 liters there must be some law or something against saying &quot;only&quot; before the numeric figure of 500cid. Man, if you think 8+ liter motor is a small motor I'd hate to know what you think of as a big motor.
 

geno

Lifer
Dec 26, 1999
25,074
4
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eia, just think of the 815cid engines! Absolutely unbelievable, those blocks must be HUGE (not to mention everything else).
 

Demon-Xanth

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
20,551
2
81
yes, &quot;only&quot; 500, you can buy 510CID crate motors directly from GM. High performance parts places have 540+CID crates and kits. Something else to remember: if two engines (One a 4 the other a V8) are both producing 200HP, the V8 has half the stress of the 4 on it's connecting rods (all else being equal). As for the &quot;unfair advantage&quot; of displacement goes, try comparing a VTEC V6 and LS-1 V8 sometime when it comes to the dollar figure. All that money goes into adding cams and squeezing out more power. Increasing displacement is an option for increasing horsepower. (look at Lingenfelter's 640HP 415CID ZR-1 vette) as well as pressurizing the intake to cram more air in (Lingenfelter's 640HP twin turbo C5).

If you try and compare engines, ignore displacement and make sure they are the same price. Then compare the outputs. It's really easy to show that a 2.2L VTEC can beat a 3.1L GM V6. But try convincing someone that a ZR-1 is better than a LT-1 corvette with it's price tag being twice as high, Chevy could only convince about 700 people per year.

As far as fuel economy goes, Hotrod put a blown fuel injected 302 chevy SB in a 65 Chevelle and got 23MPG when backed by a richmond six speed. And that engine made 550HP.

Power costs money, whether it's put into cams, displacement, blowers, turbos, variable displacement intakes, or fancy combustion chambers (HEMI!)

Just remember, speed kills (your bank account) :)