POLL: Should racial profiling be used at airport security?
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To me this whole profiling thing is a bunch of BS. If every 9-11 hijacker was a 30ish male of middle eastern decent, why are we strip searching little old grandmas from Omaha? 
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
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Clearly something is wrong with the system when Al Gore has to go through an airport search, even if randomly selected http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=51090
If we can't trust presidential candidates/former VPs to not be terrorists, what chance have we really got?
If we can't trust presidential candidates/former VPs to not be terrorists, what chance have we really got?
shortylickens
No Lifer
- Jul 15, 2003
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I dont have a problem with racial profiling in ANY situation, provided they only use it to question people. When they start grabbing folks, throwing them into little rooms and "interrogating" them simply on profiling, we have a problem.
I dont have any issues with it at home for city police, provided its just questioning.
Its not acceptable for search and seizure and warrants.
EDIT:
Having said all that, I am a middle-class white American male with no discernable accent and generally dress nicely while at the airport. I dont overdo it, but I dont go in for the whole "grunge" look either. Usually its khakis and a polo shirt or something similar.
Perhaps if my situation were different and I presented a "questionable appearance" I might have a bigger problem with profiling.
I dont have any issues with it at home for city police, provided its just questioning.
Its not acceptable for search and seizure and warrants.
EDIT:
Having said all that, I am a middle-class white American male with no discernable accent and generally dress nicely while at the airport. I dont overdo it, but I dont go in for the whole "grunge" look either. Usually its khakis and a polo shirt or something similar.
Perhaps if my situation were different and I presented a "questionable appearance" I might have a bigger problem with profiling.
jonks
Lifer
- Feb 7, 2005
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So stopping blacks just to "question" them is ok for no reason? Having police detaining citizens based on nothing but skin color is a violation of just about every civil right I can think of. What, blacks don't have to be on time for meetings, school? They should be subject to being stopped or detained at any time for any reason as you suggest? Think that through a little more.
Further, stopping for questioning may lead to a reasonable suspicion of anyone who is stopped. So if you stop blacks in larger numbers, you going to end up with more reasonable suspicion, and then more arrests based solely on race.
- Sep 29, 2000
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Actually, do you know what's funny? Security checks on pilots. I suppose one could be in cahoots with somebody in the cabin who could hijack and plane and bring it to Sudan, but since the pilot is the one flying the plane, even without a weapon he could crash the thing.
As kinev said, unlimited resources maybe it's a different answer. As is, any good cop profiles when doing work (you don't put equal attention to one likely lead and one unlikely one) and profiling is no different.
- Sep 29, 2000
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Thing is, currently NOBODY on the street is stopped for a random pat-down. If cops were charged to do such a thing, it would make sense then to profile based on race/age/dress as well. Ultimately, when you've got a system in which a woman with her four kids crying and screaming is given the same attention as a 25 year old single male, there's a problem!
LOL @ All "essentially all terrorists look like the stereotypical terrorist ". Such a silly comment - terrorists look like stereotypical terrorists?
No for sure. Then again I am a "Middle Eastern looking" person in his 20s. It achieves very little if I'm harassed and prevented free movement within my own country. If anything it pisses me off further because I'm a law abiding citizen who has done NOTHING wrong but has to be pulled over because people want to "feel good".
I would hope a thorough, complete, and more accurate profile would include simply more than "Middle Eastern Looking People". If we use race as a criteria - then our methodology of finding terrorists is going to suck. I would also believe that if we have to focus on their race, then our intelligence capabilities must have REALLY deteriorated...
And seriously - lets think about how we identify a "Middle Eastern Looking Person". Beyond just race, maybe it is based on how they look?
Let us think about that for a minute and take a very simplistic approach - perhaps the "good middle easterners" are the ones who look clean and dress nice. Perhaps the "bad terrarists" are the ones who dress disheveled and dirty? Maybe this approach is simpler? But what do you do the minute the "dirty ones" realize they can easily pass through if they choose to "look clean"? Are you simply going to apprehend or stop all middle eastern people? What do you do when they (including me) realize if they shave then they could easily look that stereotypical Arab look and blend into something else (Hell my Dad has been called Greek countless times)...watch them "slip by" again if we focusing on looks.
Talk about royally pissing off a group without a good basis to do it....
We might as well start stopping all Black people on the streets because we know that essentially all criminals look like the stereotypical criminal (Blacks in his 20's or 30's)
No for sure. Then again I am a "Middle Eastern looking" person in his 20s. It achieves very little if I'm harassed and prevented free movement within my own country. If anything it pisses me off further because I'm a law abiding citizen who has done NOTHING wrong but has to be pulled over because people want to "feel good".
I would hope a thorough, complete, and more accurate profile would include simply more than "Middle Eastern Looking People". If we use race as a criteria - then our methodology of finding terrorists is going to suck. I would also believe that if we have to focus on their race, then our intelligence capabilities must have REALLY deteriorated...
And seriously - lets think about how we identify a "Middle Eastern Looking Person". Beyond just race, maybe it is based on how they look?
Let us think about that for a minute and take a very simplistic approach - perhaps the "good middle easterners" are the ones who look clean and dress nice. Perhaps the "bad terrarists" are the ones who dress disheveled and dirty? Maybe this approach is simpler? But what do you do the minute the "dirty ones" realize they can easily pass through if they choose to "look clean"? Are you simply going to apprehend or stop all middle eastern people? What do you do when they (including me) realize if they shave then they could easily look that stereotypical Arab look and blend into something else (Hell my Dad has been called Greek countless times)...watch them "slip by" again if we focusing on looks.
Talk about royally pissing off a group without a good basis to do it....
We might as well start stopping all Black people on the streets because we know that essentially all criminals look like the stereotypical criminal (Blacks in his 20's or 30's)
That's idiotic. If someone wants to get past racial profiling to commit an act of terror, they need only look as far as a nice haircut, some makeup, some new clothes and perhaps a bit of study into English slang and such.
Idiotic.
Idiotic.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
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Profiling for security, or any other reason for that matter, must include far more than just race, age and gender to be helpful.
There are many other factors that security professionals around the world successfully employ. And we should drop the whole "PC thing" and get onboard.
To randomly check people like Al Gore to give an appearance of being non-racist just wastes resources in an effort to be "PC".
Fern
Yeah - it is called having intelligence worth Sh|T, and heavily relying on race to do so is also proof of this.
You were onto something - A terrorist looking to pull something probably isn't going to bring his wife on the plane. He sure as hell won't have his kids with him. His disposition may appear to be out of ordinary (I would think someone would be close to scared shitless if they are about to try to hijack a plane). Traditionally it has been males - but to ignore females would be to leave gaping hole in security.
Notice something: Never once was race mentioned here as a primary factor.
ding ding.
Stopping Al Gore is pretty stupid and it just makes me realize how hard they are trying to GIVE THE APPEARANCE that they don't care about race. If anything, it shows Al Gore or that mother with kids crying how much of a hassle it is to be picked on. Sucks, doesn't it?
The bolded part is what I totally agree with. There we go.
Race can be on the list of how we find potential "problem makers"...but it needs to be at or near the very bottom of the list because race alone isn't going to produce shite.
If a person looks to be a Middle Eastern, but no other important flags go up...then its stupid to apprehend them.
shortylickens
No Lifer
- Jul 15, 2003
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I'll be glad to think that through a LOT more, I'll let you do the little thinking.
Before you get all bent out of shape, (too late) the reason I worded my post like that was I just saw an episode of Boston Legal that dealt with this same issue. Granted, Boston Legal is about as serious a show as you can watch on TV nowadays (which is a bad thing), but it often raises interesting points like this.
A young black man was hanging out in a neighborhood the cops knew well. They knew it was all white folks and knew most of the residents by name.
They saw him standing around and stopped to talk to him. When he refused to talk they asked him for ID. He refused that as well. They tried to take him in and he assaulted them.
They haul his butt downtown and book him for attacking police officers.
Later he sues the city (or police department, I forget which) and throughout the trial they go through this whole issue. The man argues he was arrested for being black.
The cops argue they questioned him because he was a black man in an area they knew to be all white people. They also point out the reason he was arrested was refusing to provide ID upon request, (which I can only assume is legal in Mass.) and the assault when he refused to cooperate.
I forget how the episode went but I believe the judge ruled in favor of the cops.
Now I am not a Republican but normally I consider the rulings on Boston Legal to be Ultra-Liberal to the point of stupidity. This one was not and they gave justification for it.
Its not illegal to be black, it is illegal to refuse cooperation with police.
And in the real world police do racial profile and it has been determined to be legal to the extent it doesnt violate a persons civil liberties.
Your civil liberties arent being violated just because cops talk to you. They are supposed to be inquisitive, its how they do their job. If they werent then no one would ever be arrested and the current crime problem in this country would be a joke by comparsion.
If you feel the cops are harassing you then you say "yes officer, no problem, how can I help you?". Then you get his badge number and file a complaint later.
Your ignorance is silly and a little offensive. Cops are already doing what I said. They constantly racial profile in their minds and have been doing it for years. They know the statistics on crime and who is more or less likely to be engaged in criminal activities in their city.
As for being detained, I never suggested that and said it was not acceptable. But I dont blame you for putting words in my mouth, I understand its the only way people like you can win an argument.
I see it all the time, in teenagers and immature adults.
shortylickens : Just one point on that story. I can't really tell you what I think of that case particularly because I don't watch that show... but I think there is something worth noting: You said the cops were VERY familiar with the area. For better or worse, they knew all the residents by name. Thus they have a greater understanding of when something appears to be out of the ordinary. That community is something they understand. So when someone appears out of the norm that they don't know - black or not - they want to check up and see what is going on.
If those cops did not actually know the surrounding, and have a very strong understanding of the area I would think that they are targeting him because he is a "black criminal" rather than ". Of course this doesn't mean there are still racial undertones which is completely wrong, but its a little closer to having justification than being totally off base.
This simply won't work in an airport. Literally every race of people can be found at an airport. That is what IS normal...so to find Arab or Iranians or anyone who looks "Middle Eastern" is going to be a no brainer. That logic of "knowing the neighborhood down the point that you know all the residents by name" simply cannot apply in an airport.
If those cops did not actually know the surrounding, and have a very strong understanding of the area I would think that they are targeting him because he is a "black criminal" rather than ". Of course this doesn't mean there are still racial undertones which is completely wrong, but its a little closer to having justification than being totally off base.
This simply won't work in an airport. Literally every race of people can be found at an airport. That is what IS normal...so to find Arab or Iranians or anyone who looks "Middle Eastern" is going to be a no brainer. That logic of "knowing the neighborhood down the point that you know all the residents by name" simply cannot apply in an airport.
BurnItDwn
Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
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Rather than doing "racial" profiling they should do "cultural" profiling.
People with masks, eye patches, parrots on shoulders, burkas, etc ....
It's not because of "race" but instead how they chose to dress/look.
If somebody looks like they could possibly be a pirate .. then profile them as a pirate.
If somebody looks like they could possibly be a ninja .. then profile them as a ninja.
If somebody looks like they could possibly be a terrorist .. then profile them as a terrorist.
People with masks, eye patches, parrots on shoulders, burkas, etc ....
It's not because of "race" but instead how they chose to dress/look.
If somebody looks like they could possibly be a pirate .. then profile them as a pirate.
If somebody looks like they could possibly be a ninja .. then profile them as a ninja.
If somebody looks like they could possibly be a terrorist .. then profile them as a terrorist.
- Sep 29, 2000
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Why are you laughing at patent fact?
It would merely be one facet to explore.
Again, there is a very good basis for it. As I said "essentially all terrorists look like the stereotypical terrorist".
Again, it would be just one aspect.
Of the last 500 suicide bombers to kill themselves in the world, how many were females? I would be surprised if it was even a dozen.
Of course. Profiling is done by any good law enforcement and has been done throughout history. Pretending that one's race has no bearing whatsoever on the proceedings is just a denial of statistical fact, which is why most people evidently think it should be one aspect in airport security.
Which works until the day the terrorist decides to look like a ninja and slip through undetected.
Uhmm, guys? Racial profiling is a violation of the 14th amendment. Specifically targeting certain ethnic groups for increased searches, etc. is clearly unconstitutional. Yes I know that law enforcement frequently gets away with this because specific racist intent is hard to prove in court, but what you are arguing for is a specifically articulated policy targeting certain minorities. This blatantly violates other Americans' civil rights.
I'll bite =Okay how does a stereotypical terrorist look.
Better be at the bottom of the list of that facets, else you are going to end up with a LOT of false calls!
See first question.
As I said again, it better be at the bottom of the list - that by now you are convinced its a terrorist race or not.
I never said that we need to focus on females. I'm saying in a complete and whole assessment of who and what to say, to ignore females rather than be aware of them can create problems for our security...especially if we are completely geared toward men only.
1. I'm guessing that you have not been around many Middle Easterners. Many look just like a normal white dude from anywhere in the US. Not all look like Osama Bin Laden.
2. They are recruiting people of other races/ethnicities. Example: shoe bomber guy
3. Airport security is not only supposed to look for terrorists.
2. They are recruiting people of other races/ethnicities. Example: shoe bomber guy
3. Airport security is not only supposed to look for terrorists.
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