POLL: Should racial profiling be used at airport security?

[fskimospy]

It has nothing to do with emotions, it has nothing to do with effectiveness. It is against the constitution. Simply put, you cannot stop someone for interrogation/searches/whatever because of their race or ethnicity. It is a violation of the 14th amendment. If you want to say you are stopping them because of suspicious behavior AND their race, you best avoid that too... as it is again a violation of the 14th amendment. (while hard to prove with the police, it would be crushed in a second if adopted as policy)

Trust me, you want to stick to behavior based profiling. Not only is it likely to be far more effective, it also doesn't involve shredding the constitutional rights of millions of people.

 

[Rainsford]

Not to ask the obvious question, but doesn't profiling require the ability and data needed to create a good profile? No matter what broad factors you're using, you need to be able to intelligently figure out how the target group looks when considered on the basis of those factors compared to how the population at large looks.

And here's where almost all "profiling", especially racial profiling, falls completely apart when we're discussing terrorism. The sample size we're using to form our profile is ridiculously small. Terrorist attacks are pretty rare, airline terrorism is even rarer, and for the most part we're all just talking about ONE terrorist attack...9/11. Now looking at the group of people involved in 9/11, we could construct somewhat of a profile...that would pick out that exact group of people if they ever try to hijack more airplanes (which doesn't seem like a high probability event). Concluding that all terrorists look like the 9/11 hijackers is ridiculous, not only because there are MANY counter examples, but because you're trying to stop future attacks by using an approach that might have stopped the LAST attack. Before 9/11, any profile that was created would have been worthless at actually stopping the attacks...what makes you think a profile now will be useful in stopping the NEXT attack?

A far better approach is to apply criminal behavioral profiling to passengers going through screening. Not only does that field have a much longer history and a decent track record, but it can be applied to any terrorist group because it's not specific to a few dozen assholes from the middle east on 9/11. Well trained people (ie, NOT the TSA) can do a pretty decent job picking out folks who set off "I'm up to no good" warning bells, the trick is to NOT focus on obvious things like skin color.

 

[smack Down]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
Clearly something is wrong with the system when Al Gore has to go through an airport search, even if randomly selected http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=51090
If we can't trust presidential candidates/former VPs to not be terrorists, what chance have we really got?

Right because Al gore the VP is the only person to go by the name al gore.

 

[StageLeft]

I thought "Who does this best?" and I thought israel. So I googled "Does Israel racial profile" and of the first four answers, the summary on two said it does and the other two it doesn't

 

[Farang]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
Uhmm, guys?

I love this comment.. it sums up what our Constitution has been reduced to these days.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
I thought "Who does this best?" and I thought israel. So I googled "Does Israel racial profile" and of the first four answers, the summary on two said it does and the other two it doesn't

My understanding that Israel does not use racial profiling, they instead use very extensive and time consuming behavioral profiling. Which is another point worth considering, Israel does not "do it best", they do what works for them based on the balancing issues of frequency of air travel and the threat facing it...both of which are VERY different in the United States. Our air travel system is far more extensive, and the threat of terrorism facing it is far lower. The level of security a particular approach provides should not be the only concern.

And that seems to be something often lost in the discussion. I don't see anyone suggesting that racial profiling has no negative side effects, but those seem to be ignored in favor of a focus on "protecting us from terrorism". In other words, EVERYTHING seems to be subordinate to that goal...if a tactic is perceived as protecting us from terrorists, it receives widespread support, no matter how deplorable it would otherwise be viewed. Pulling people out of line because they look different? Sure! Government illegally spying on US citizens? Why not! Imprisonment without trial or representation? Of course! Torture? Well, we've come this far, why not go all the way! This quest to vanquish the terrorists lurking under your bed has become the one and only consideration in way too many situations.

You want to know why racial profiling is a bad idea? It's not because it's an inefficient way to catch the bad guys, although it is. It's not because it will alienate the very people we want on our side, although it will. It's a bad idea because it's fundamentally WRONG. There is no crime in being Muslim, no crime in looking like you're from the Middle East. Society should not impose penalties on you because you happen to share your skin color with evil people. It's become almost cliche to suggest that it "doesn't make sense" to give the same amount of attention to a 25 year old male from the Middle East and a 65 year old grandmother from Asia...but lost in that bumper sticker philosophy is the point that the 25 year old Middle Eastern man did no more to deserve being singled out than did the 65 year old grandmother.

I know this idea seems unpopular lately, but aren't there some things more important than safety? And the funny thing is, people ignore this idea...but in the back of their mind, they know it's true, they know we're skirting dangerously close to the edge of something we'd rather not think about. Why else would "freedom" and "liberty" be such popular slogans when what they really want is "safety"? But that doesn't sound like the kind of thing most people would want to slap on a bumper sticker.

 

[Socio]

I think it is absolutely justified in order to narrow the odds of someone slipping past with something.

Say you have 25 airport security guards at the gate; they can not possibly search the 10,000 passengers that will be going through in a day. So obviously their best bet is to hone in on the most likely to try and slip something past among those 10,000 passengers. Racial profiling is one of the best tools they have given their situation and give them the highest probability to stop anyone that would be

I think those that fit the profile, get stopped and searched and complain about it are nothing but whiney, self centered, jackasses that put themselves above everyone else?s safety. They need to suck it up, and shut it up, because the profile they fit is the best bet for everyone including them to get to their destination safely.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Socio
I think it is absolutely justified in order to narrow the odds of someone slipping past with something.

Say you have 25 airport security guards at the gate; they can not possibly search the 10,000 passengers that will be going through in a day. So obviously their best bet is to hone in on the most likely to try and slip something past among those 10,000 passengers. Racial profiling is one of the best tools they have given their situation and give them the highest probability to stop anyone that would be

I think those that fit the profile, get stopped and searched and complain about it are nothing but whiney, self centered, jackasses that put themselves above everyone else?s safety. They need to suck it up, and shut it up, because the profile they fit is the best bet for everyone including them to get to their destination safely.

It's easy to say that when you don't belong to that group.

And don't be an idiot, "most likely" is a phrase you use because your numbers are ridiculous...the chances that a random "Arab looking guy" is going to try to slip something past security are pretty much identical to the chances some other passenger is going to do so. Terrorism is such a rare event that I honestly don't think the current bullshit we have to put up with NOW is worth it. But pulling people out of line and harassing them because they "look like terrorists" is much worse considering the miniscule amount of increased safety we MIGHT get. Intelligent profiling is one thing, but RACIAL profiling is a really shitty tool to "hone in" on anything.

God, you are all such a bunch of cowards...you honestly make me a little ill. If anyone even dangles the barest hint of increased safety, you'll step over anyone you have to in order to get to it. If our society really is threatened, it's not by any terrorists...it's by people like you. The terrorists can't really hurt us, but cowering people afraid of the dark sure as hell can.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Socio
I think it is absolutely justified in order to narrow the odds of someone slipping past with something.

Say you have 25 airport security guards at the gate; they can not possibly search the 10,000 passengers that will be going through in a day. So obviously their best bet is to hone in on the most likely to try and slip something past among those 10,000 passengers. Racial profiling is one of the best tools they have given their situation and give them the highest probability to stop anyone that would be

I think those that fit the profile, get stopped and searched and complain about it are nothing but whiney, self centered, jackasses that put themselves above everyone else?s safety. They need to suck it up, and shut it up, because the profile they fit is the best bet for everyone including them to get to their destination safely.

It's easy to say that when you don't belong to that group.

And don't be an idiot, "most likely" is a phrase you use because your numbers are ridiculous...the chances that a random "Arab looking guy" is going to try to slip something past security are pretty much identical to the chances some other passenger is going to do so. Terrorism is such a rare event that I honestly don't think the current bullshit we have to put up with NOW is worth it. But pulling people out of line and harassing them because they "look like terrorists" is much worse considering the miniscule amount of increased safety we MIGHT get. Intelligent profiling is one thing, but RACIAL profiling is a really shitty tool to "hone in" on anything.

It is easy to say period!

If a group of 10 " Caucasian guys robbed a bank and then ran into a building I was in , being a male Caucasian myself I would absolutely expect to be taken aside, searched and question by the cops to prove I was not one of those 10.

If you look like you are a terrorist it is more than reasonable to expect that you will be taken aside, searched and questioned. It just like if your are an Hispanic working at a company that hires illegals and it gets raided, you have to expect to be questioned and ID'ed, to expect any different is completely idiotic.

Fact is terrorists of Middle Eastern ethnicity have smuggled or attempted to smuggle on more lethal items and taken down more flights than any other ethnicity has. So whether you like it or not the odds that they will again far out weight those of any other ethnicity doing the same. You would have to be a g-damn freaking idiot not to fixate on them above all others.

Racial profiling is not a "shitty tool" in this case it is the most efficient one we have.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
I know this idea seems unpopular lately, but aren't there some things more important than safety? And the funny thing is, people ignore this idea...but in the back of their mind, they know it's true, they know we're skirting dangerously close to the edge of something we'd rather not think about. Why else would "freedom" and "liberty" be such popular slogans when what they really want is "safety"? But that doesn't sound like the kind of thing most people would want to slap on a bumper sticker.

I got no beef with preserving safety, but its often been pointed out that sacrificing liberties rarely increases safety, and in the end we usually have a lot less of each.
In the end I think I'd rather have the freedom. The safety is never a sure thing and the freedom is much harder to get back if you lose it.

BUT, I still believe police and airport security should be allowed to do their job as they see fit. If they turn sour and start abusing people then we have a system to correct them. It needs to be used more and circumvented less. Knee-jerk reactions to incidents rarely tend to help.

EDIT: Also, it seems like most Americans nowadays dont really know what makes them safe, so they cling to the feeling of safety rather than the actual thing.
Statistically, crime goes up whenever we ban guns. But people always feel much safer when their state or city outlaws them. Never mind all the law really does is disarm good citizens and make life easier for criminals.

 

[Jaskalas]

Why do people think all Muslims are Middle Eastern Arab looking men? Islamists have the support of all races, and our own people radicalized on our own soil pose the greatest threat to us.

They can be any race.

As for a profiling religion, I think it goes far beyond an airport screening. You need a life history to even begin.

 

[Eeezee]

Wouldn't the terrorist groups just start using 65 year-old Asians then? It doesn't make any sense to assume that terrorists can ONLY be 25 year-old guys of Middle Eastern descent.

Do you really believe airport security doesn't do any racial profiling already? The people working security are human, after all.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: CanOWorms
1. I'm guessing that you have not been around many Middle Easterners. Many look just like a normal white dude from anywhere in the US. Not all look like Osama Bin Laden.
2. They are recruiting people of other races/ethnicities. Example: shoe bomber guy
3. Airport security is not only supposed to look for terrorists.

My thoughts exactly. As far as 'Arab' populated countires, I have been to Egypt, Dubai and Yemen and i can say some of the people Americans think are "Arabs" are not Arabs at all. Then some of the popluation looks no different than mediteranean whites, or Italians. Afghanis dont look "Arab" at all. Some of the people look black..........Yemen people are somewhat mixed with Ethiopian, google Osama's face and google any famouse Ethiopian such as the late Haile Selassie, they could probably be brothers, Or father and son. Zacarias Moussaoui was basically a African Morroccan (non Arab) who would not fit the profile.

I think the whole idea is stupid because i basically dont think anyone is trying to blow up our airports or kill us. And the security checks drive the point home. HOW MANY TIMES in the past year have FAKE BOMBS gotten past the FAKE SCREENERS? I belive most of the time. Comming into the US from Ethiopia i had 50 Kilos (Over a hundred pounds) of white powder (Teff : an Ethiopian baking flour) in plastic bags, some of it was in my carry-on. I got through ETH>London>NYC!!! TWICE!!! (The only time i wish i sold drugs LOL ) These people are only their to take your water and liquids so you have to buy more just ot help out our failing economy (Just kidding) But i dont think anyone wants to kills us, I say we should have a "War on people that dont wear seatbealts" we could probably save about 20 thousand lives per year.

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Socio
I think it is absolutely justified in order to narrow the odds of someone slipping past with something.

Say you have 25 airport security guards at the gate; they can not possibly search the 10,000 passengers that will be going through in a day. So obviously their best bet is to hone in on the most likely to try and slip something past among those 10,000 passengers. Racial profiling is one of the best tools they have given their situation and give them the highest probability to stop anyone that would be

I think those that fit the profile, get stopped and searched and complain about it are nothing but whiney, self centered, jackasses that put themselves above everyone else?s safety. They need to suck it up, and shut it up, because the profile they fit is the best bet for everyone including them to get to their destination safely.

It's easy to say that when you don't belong to that group.

And don't be an idiot, "most likely" is a phrase you use because your numbers are ridiculous...the chances that a random "Arab looking guy" is going to try to slip something past security are pretty much identical to the chances some other passenger is going to do so. Terrorism is such a rare event that I honestly don't think the current bullshit we have to put up with NOW is worth it. But pulling people out of line and harassing them because they "look like terrorists" is much worse considering the miniscule amount of increased safety we MIGHT get. Intelligent profiling is one thing, but RACIAL profiling is a really shitty tool to "hone in" on anything.

It is easy to say period!

If a group of 10 " Caucasian guys robbed a bank and then ran into a building I was in , being a male Caucasian myself I would absolutely expect to be taken aside, searched and question by the cops to prove I was not one of those 10.

If you look like you are a terrorist it is more than reasonable to expect that you will be taken aside, searched and questioned. It just like if your are an Hispanic working at a company that hires illegals and it gets raided, you have to expect to be questioned and ID'ed, to expect any different is completely idiotic.

Fact is terrorists of Middle Eastern ethnicity have smuggled or attempted to smuggle on more lethal items and taken down more flights than any other ethnicity has. So whether you like it or not the odds that they will again far out weight those of any other ethnicity doing the same. You would have to be a g-damn freaking idiot not to fixate on them above all others.

Racial profiling is not a "shitty tool" in this case it is the most efficient one we have.

Hmm, and i always though Arabs were "White/ Caucasian"

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Socio
I think it is absolutely justified in order to narrow the odds of someone slipping past with something.

Say you have 25 airport security guards at the gate; they can not possibly search the 10,000 passengers that will be going through in a day. So obviously their best bet is to hone in on the most likely to try and slip something past among those 10,000 passengers. Racial profiling is one of the best tools they have given their situation and give them the highest probability to stop anyone that would be

I think those that fit the profile, get stopped and searched and complain about it are nothing but whiney, self centered, jackasses that put themselves above everyone else?s safety. They need to suck it up, and shut it up, because the profile they fit is the best bet for everyone including them to get to their destination safely.

It's easy to say that when you don't belong to that group.

And don't be an idiot, "most likely" is a phrase you use because your numbers are ridiculous...the chances that a random "Arab looking guy" is going to try to slip something past security are pretty much identical to the chances some other passenger is going to do so. Terrorism is such a rare event that I honestly don't think the current bullshit we have to put up with NOW is worth it. But pulling people out of line and harassing them because they "look like terrorists" is much worse considering the miniscule amount of increased safety we MIGHT get. Intelligent profiling is one thing, but RACIAL profiling is a really shitty tool to "hone in" on anything.

It is easy to say period!

If a group of 10 " Caucasian guys robbed a bank and then ran into a building I was in , being a male Caucasian myself I would absolutely expect to be taken aside, searched and question by the cops to prove I was not one of those 10.

If you look like you are a terrorist it is more than reasonable to expect that you will be taken aside, searched and questioned. It just like if your are an Hispanic working at a company that hires illegals and it gets raided, you have to expect to be questioned and ID'ed, to expect any different is completely idiotic.

Fact is terrorists of Middle Eastern ethnicity have smuggled or attempted to smuggle on more lethal items and taken down more flights than any other ethnicity has. So whether you like it or not the odds that they will again far out weight those of any other ethnicity doing the same. You would have to be a g-damn freaking idiot not to fixate on them above all others.

Racial profiling is not a "shitty tool" in this case it is the most efficient one we have.

What about the idea that there are some things more important than personal safety? Even assuming you're right that terrorists tend to "look like terrorists" there are so few terrorists out there that it is nearly certain that the guy getting pulled out of line at the airport is just some random guy who happened to be born with the wrong facial features. Why should he have to suffer inconvenience and harassment because of his looks in order for you to feel safe?

If you could just get past your irrational fear and THINK, you'd realize that invasive "anti-terrorism" measures are pretty dumb. We're not being besieged by terrorists, all annoying security measures tend to accomplish is to annoy people. But at least we're all being annoyed together, I think you underestimate the effect singling out people for special treatment based on race will have on our society as a whole. Whether or not you view it as common sense is beside the point, what it looks like to the people on the other side of the TSA anal probing is that America thinks Arab looking people are all potential terrorists and should be treated as such. Call me crazy, but I think THAT will end up doing more damage to our society than any terrorist group could hope to accomplish. In fact, that kind of fracturing of society along ethnic and religious lines may be EXACTLY what they're hoping for.

Life comes with some risks, if you aren't willing to face them, feel free to stay at home and hide under your bed. For my part, I'd be perfectly willing to fly on a regular basis if there was NO security at all at the airport. But at the very least, I can't understand demanding that other people sacrifice their liberty because I'm scared of the dark.

 

[jpeyton]

They should absolutely profile.

Unfortunately, terrorists absolutely know they profile, and probably won't walk into an airport with a foot-long beard, traditional middle-eastern attire and a backpack.

Looking "integrated" isn't that hard these days.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Socio
...
Racial profiling is not a "shitty tool" in this case it is the most efficient one we have.

On the off chance that you know the first thing about combating terrorism, what exactly are you basing that on? Terrorists in recent memory are from a wide variety of races and ethnic groups, from African Muslims to Irish Catholics to yokels belonging to the local militia. You are basing your entire "profile" on one terrorist attack and, most likely, the bad guys often found on '24'. What data do you have that suggests you could even construct a reasonable profile that doesn't include "everyone"?

 

[beyoku]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Socio
...
Racial profiling is not a "shitty tool" in this case it is the most efficient one we have.

On the off chance that you know the first thing about combating terrorism, what exactly are you basing that on? Terrorists in recent memory are from a wide variety of races and ethnic groups, from African Muslims to Irish Catholics to yokels belonging to the local militia. You are basing your entire "profile" on one terrorist attack and, most likely, the bad guys often found on '24'. What data do you have that suggests you could even construct a reasonable profile that doesn't include "everyone"?

LOL great.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Socio
...
Racial profiling is not a "shitty tool" in this case it is the most efficient one we have.

On the off chance that you know the first thing about combating terrorism, what exactly are you basing that on? Terrorists in recent memory are from a wide variety of races and ethnic groups, from African Muslims to Irish Catholics to yokels belonging to the local militia. You are basing your entire "profile" on one terrorist attack and, most likely, the bad guys often found on '24'. What data do you have that suggests you could even construct a reasonable profile that doesn't include "everyone"?

You said this above, but it's not accurate. The vast majority of terrorist attacks against western targets in recent memory have been conducted by people from the middle east with a middle eastern background and look like a typical arab. Using examples like mcveigh or shoebomber or Patric McFaden (made that up) who bombed a police car in Dublin in '94 is being disingenuous, IMO.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Socio
...
Racial profiling is not a "shitty tool" in this case it is the most efficient one we have.

On the off chance that you know the first thing about combating terrorism, what exactly are you basing that on? Terrorists in recent memory are from a wide variety of races and ethnic groups, from African Muslims to Irish Catholics to yokels belonging to the local militia. You are basing your entire "profile" on one terrorist attack and, most likely, the bad guys often found on '24'. What data do you have that suggests you could even construct a reasonable profile that doesn't include "everyone"?

You said this above, but it's not accurate. The vast majority of terrorist attacks against western targets in recent memory have been conducted by people from the middle east with a middle eastern background and look like a typical arab. Using examples like mcveigh or shoebomber or Patric McFaden (made that up) who bombed a police car in Dublin in '94 is being disingenuous, IMO.

Exactly what I was thinking. We are talking about a group of people that are boarding an airplane with the intent of hijacking it. In my memory that has almost exclusively been people of middle eastern descent.