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POLL: Seize children from mothers who smoke/drink while pregnant?

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Okay Skoorb, I'll bite.

You are claiming that the government takes children away from parents who have shown themselves to be unfit through abuse and/or neglect. Society accepts this, in general, as the correct thing to do. You further argue that smoking or drinking is hazardous to the unborn child's health, therefore positing that this constitutes abuse and/or neglect and should follow the same rules.

However, how do you gauge the level of smoking and drinking to show a direct correlation to the necessary level of abuse and/or neglect to warrant such action? When you beat a child severely enough to cause hospitalization, we can all agree that is abuse. Not so with smoking and drinking during pregnancy. Is one cigarette a day or one drink a day bad? Is there scientific evidence to back it up. How about one cigarette a week or one drink a week? Also, you can beat your child and neglect your child in ways that will not result in getting your children taken away. Spanking during episodes of disobedience and enforcing a strict diet that causes the child to be underweight but not malnourished are but two of many.

We can see the broken bones and bruises on the poor child who has suffered an abusive beating. The doctors can look at this child and make the determination. Abuse and neglect is a case by case basis where a determination is made that warrants removal of the child from the custody of its parents. How do you propose to do this, and upon what basis, when you are considering this action in regards to smokiong and drinking. There is enough evidence that shows that smoking and drinking during pregnancy shows no consistent pattern of ill effects. Just look at many of the older generation around you who had parents that were not as health conscious during pregnancy; parents who both smoked and drank.

So, in the end, you are basing this upon the possible harm that may come to a child during pregnancy. If that is the case, then a mother who is ticketed for speeding should also have their children taken away. The possible harm is evident and we have the statistics to back it up.
 
Originally posted by: jjones
Wow, there are really some fscked up views about this. Why not go full bore and require a competency test and issue pregnancy permits. Hey, lets keep the uneducated and illiterate from having children too because they are obviously not fit to be parents if they can't even read or don't know simple geography.

While we're at it lets stop the minorities, and the poor from having kids as well. Obviously being born will subject the child to hatred and if the poor cannot afford to provide the latest Tommy fashions for their kids they shouldn't have ever been born.

You know a lot of people seem to be going for Robert A. Heinlein's view of the world when he wrote star ship troopers. Only Citizens have kids..
 
still need to figure out the cutoff. is it one drink while pregnant? one drink a month? one drink a week? one drink a day?
some people have different ideas on how much alcohol to have heck even the "experts" cant agree. one book says a pregnant women can have a drink a week and NOT harm a fetus. another says 2 drinks a week. one says even a drop will harm the fetus.

now where are we going to put all these kids? i have worked with DCFS (foster care) for the last 10 years. as it is they do not have enough good homes. what good homes they have are crowded. so that means we have to pay them more to get more people in.

so that means taxes go up.


seems like a retarded idea.
 
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Seize children from mothers who smoke/drink while pregnant?

That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Leave people the fvck alone! :|


they dont deserve kids if they drink, smoke, do dope while pregant
Totally agree. If you can't give up your vices for 10 months you aren't going to be a good parent anyway. I get so f'ing sick of hearing parents complaining how expensive it is to raise their kid(s) yet they never go a day without their Marboro's. I have to bite my tongue to avoid an argument.

There seems to be a serious lack of understanding of what addiction is in this thread. The fact is with all the current methods available to help people quit smoking only 7% succeed. You expect someone to stop one of the most addictive drugs on the planet. Please review the definition of addiction:


Integration of addiction into the theory and practice of psychiatry has been hampered by the lack of a definition of addiction which is scientifically useful. A definition is proposed, with diagnostic criteria specified in a format similar to that of DSM-III-R. Essentially, addiction designates a process whereby a behavior, that can function both to produce pleasure and to provide escape from internal discomfort, is employed in a pattern characterized by (1) recurrent failure to control the behaviour (powerlessness) and (2) continuation of the behaviour despite significant negative consequences (unmanageability). Some practical and theoretical implications of this definition are then explored.

PMID: 2285834 [PubMed]


Addiction by definition causes you to continue behavior despite negative consequences. I'm sure Skoorb will say that 7% did it why can't the rest. The fact is genetics plays a large role in addiction. Some people are predisposed to become more addicted than others. You will find that here on ATOT. There are people here who smoke every once in a while, people who stopped smoking with no problem, people who had a hell of a time quitting, and people who can't quit at all.

Without getting into the "they never should have started in the first place" argument the fact is you are dealing with an addictive drug that current laws provide little help curbing the use of. You can walk into almost any store and buy a pack. Those who view this simply as a "vice" please do a few hours of reading on nicotine addiction. Would you expect a crack addict to stop if he could drop by the QT and pick up a couple rocks?
 
Originally posted by: jjones
Okay Skoorb, I'll bite.

You are claiming that the government takes children away from parents who have shown themselves to be unfit through abuse and/or neglect. Society accepts this, in general, as the correct thing to do. You further argue that smoking or drinking is hazardous to the unborn child's health, therefore positing that this constitutes abuse and/or neglect and should follow the same rules.

However, how do you gauge the level of smoking and drinking to show a direct correlation to the necessary level of abuse and/or neglect to warrant such action? When you beat a child severely enough to cause hospitalization, we can all agree that is abuse. Not so with smoking and drinking during pregnancy. Is one cigarette a day or one drink a day bad? Is there scientific evidence to back it up. How about one cigarette a week or one drink a week? Also, you can beat your child and neglect your child in ways that will not result in getting your children taken away. Spanking during episodes of disobedience and enforcing a strict diet that causes the child to be underweight but not malnourished are but two of many.

We can see the broken bones and bruises on the poor child who has suffered an abusive beating. The doctors can look at this child and make the determination. Abuse and neglect is a case by case basis where a determination is made that warrants removal of the child from the custody of its parents. How do you propose to do this, and upon what basis, when you are considering this action in regards to smokiong and drinking. There is enough evidence that shows that smoking and drinking during pregnancy shows no consistent pattern of ill effects. Just look at many of the older generation around you who had parents that were not as health conscious during pregnancy; parents who both smoked and drank.

So, in the end, you are basing this upon the possible harm that may come to a child during pregnancy. If that is the case, then a mother who is ticketed for speeding should also have their children taken away. The possible harm is evident and we have the statistics to back it up.
As I alluded to above unfortunately it's just a subjective decision, which would be based upon societally accepted norms. In the past you could beat your kid a good bit as discipline. Today you can't, and the kid will be taken away. Also, the ocassional drink of wine or cigarette is fine, but a sixer of beer everynight and a pack of smokes a day is not. In both cases the probability of fetal harm is high. In the first the actual level of harm is insignificant such as to be not worth mentioning, though it's probably statistically identifiable if you did it across a million babies. In the second case that kid is quite probably going to come out of its mom being a dumb-dumb.

We take kids away from moms who do crack while pregant because the child is very likely to be sick. A smoking mother...child is less likely to be sick, so really it depends on where one's standards are for what they can tolerate in a mother's actions.

Similarly a chocholate bar a few times a week for a kid, while not overly healthy, is fine. 10 chocholate bars/day is not.
still need to figure out the cutoff. is it one drink while pregnant? one drink a month? one drink a week? one drink a day?
Yes we do need a cutoff! Personally I think one drink a week is fine. Others may not tolerate even that. You may think that one drink a day is fine. I bet you don't think that 15 drinks/day is fine, so we all have different standards of what is and isn't sufficient reason to determine a mother as clearly negligent.
 
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: Feldenak
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Seize children from mothers who smoke/drink while pregnant?

That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Leave people the fvck alone! :|


they dont deserve kids if they drink, smoke, do dope while pregant

Who are you to say what a person does or does not deserve?

if a woman cares enough about her kid to take drugs while she is pregant (and thus gives the unborn child drugs), how much better is she gonna treat it when it comes out?

Hmm...my father turned out pretty good. My father is a well rounded person, able to hold a steady job (career), ran his own business, and provided for his family(financially and emotionally). My grandparents (who smoked) must have done something right when raising him.


if he was able to succeed with those things hindering him,man, just think about how much he could have done if she had not drank and smoked while she was pregnant with him


Dude are you saying that smoking made him mentally impaired? if so you are a dumbass, major dumbass.
 
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Seize children from mothers who smoke/drink while pregnant?

That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Leave people the fvck alone! :|


they dont deserve kids if they drink, smoke, do dope while pregant
Totally agree. If you can't give up your vices for 10 months you aren't going to be a good parent anyway. I get so f'ing sick of hearing parents complaining how expensive it is to raise their kid(s) yet they never go a day without their Marboro's. I have to bite my tongue to avoid an argument.


Hey fu*kTard! My mother smoked while she was pregant with me and i take exception that because she did that she was a bad parent. Where do you morons get your stupid ass ideas? If you look back say 30+ years it was very common for pregnant women to continue to smoke while pregnant.
 
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Considering that society has no problem with taking children from abusive or negligent parents, and the negative effects of fetal alcohol syndrome or smoking are well known and documented in fetus', doesn't it make sense to imprison and/or seize these mothers' children, once they're born?



What the fvck good would that do the damage is already done. I think government would be much better off concentrating on the "big" picture then trying to micromanage our lives.


Sysadmin
 
Originally posted by: Sysadmin
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Considering that society has no problem with taking children from abusive or negligent parents, and the negative effects of fetal alcohol syndrome or smoking are well known and documented in fetus', doesn't it make sense to imprison and/or seize these mothers' children, once they're born?



What the fvck good would that do the damage is already done. I think government would be much better off concentrating on the "big" picture then trying to micromanage our lives.


Sysadmin

Wait, wait, wait... are you suggesting we don't need a nanny government?
Utter madness, I say. 😛
 
Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Originally posted by: Sysadmin
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Considering that society has no problem with taking children from abusive or negligent parents, and the negative effects of fetal alcohol syndrome or smoking are well known and documented in fetus', doesn't it make sense to imprison and/or seize these mothers' children, once they're born?



What the fvck good would that do the damage is already done. I think government would be much better off concentrating on the "big" picture then trying to micromanage our lives.


Sysadmin

Wait, wait, wait... are you suggesting we don't need a nanny government?
Utter madness, I say. 😛

Skroob is a canuk, they expect the government to wipe their arse with approved toilet paper.
 
Originally posted by: Citrix
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
Originally posted by: Electric Amish
Seize children from mothers who smoke/drink while pregnant?

That has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Leave people the fvck alone! :|


they dont deserve kids if they drink, smoke, do dope while pregant
Totally agree. If you can't give up your vices for 10 months you aren't going to be a good parent anyway. I get so f'ing sick of hearing parents complaining how expensive it is to raise their kid(s) yet they never go a day without their Marboro's. I have to bite my tongue to avoid an argument.


Hey fu*kTard! My mother smoked while she was pregant with me and i take exception that because she did that she was a bad parent. Where do you morons get your stupid ass ideas? If you look back say 30+ years it was very common for pregnant women to continue to smoke while pregnant.



They are a product of our Goverment's propaganda machine. My mother also smoked but back then it was not concidered bad at all. I also take exception when some dumbass labels my mother as being "Bad" because she smoked.

Oh to clarify Government's propaganda Machine

For 200+ years smoking was accepted by our society now in last 20 years Scientist realize that smoking is very harmful for your health. So what does the government do ...they decide to sweep 200+ years of smoking acceptance under the rug in 20 years time. They do this by turning their backs on smokers and allowing Liberals to pass wide sweeping no smoking laws at will without any regard to TAX PAYING smoker's rights.

I hope the next time the government wants to fvck me they will give me the courtesy of a reach around

Sysadmin
 
Originally posted by: MAME
many people are sick because of birth defects and the money that goes to save them affects taxpayers.

Not to mention time and effort that could be spend towards saving people who's problems could not be prevented so easily.

Think about it...it saves many people from problems.
BS. Birth defects happen often enough without the mother doing anything wrong (except for having bad genes or bad luck) and taking children away from their mothers would cost A LOT more.

"... saves many people from problems." :roll: Save yourself first, you pompous idiot. Then worry about others.

It's better to have no child than a child subject to horrid conditions growing up. A parent that doesn't want a child = horrid conidtions.
Which is why you're advocating government foster care for all these children, right? Because that's where a growing child can find the most love? :roll:
 
some of the most successful/powerful people in the history of the world had crappy mother's

i don't see why society should interfere
 
Originally posted by: Sluggo
It is quite legal for a mother to murder the child at almost anytime during her preganancy by getting it sucked out of her body into a sink, but people in this thread have proposed taking a child away from a mother who dares to smoke a cigarette while pregnant?

This is just beyond comprehension.

Agreed.
 
Originally posted by: silverpig
Hell no. A lot of the women who would drink/do drugs while pregnant don't care about the kid anyways. If we took away their kid then there'd be absolutely NO consequences for them, and no deterrant to not do it again. They'd probably look at it as a free ticket out of having to raise the kid, so they'd go and do it again.

They should be sterilized though.

That's one of the stupidist statements I've ever heard on AT. My mother smoked throughout my sister's gestation, and she did fine (they're both in great health atm). My aunt smoked for thirty years or so and had seven children, all who've turned out to be healthy, law-abiding citizens.
 
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: silverpig
Hell no. A lot of the women who would drink/do drugs while pregnant don't care about the kid anyways. If we took away their kid then there'd be absolutely NO consequences for them, and no deterrant to not do it again. They'd probably look at it as a free ticket out of having to raise the kid, so they'd go and do it again.

They should be sterilized though.

That's one of the stupidist statements I've ever heard on AT. My mother smoked throughout my sister's gestation, and she did fine (they're both in great health atm). My aunt smoked for thirty years or so and had seven children, all who've turned out to be healthy, law-abiding citizens.

Odd how that works, isn't it?

I have to wonder how all these kids would have turned out if they had been left in the hands of our wonderful gubment. :roll:
 
Originally posted by: DurocShark
Originally posted by: Orsorum
Originally posted by: silverpig
Hell no. A lot of the women who would drink/do drugs while pregnant don't care about the kid anyways. If we took away their kid then there'd be absolutely NO consequences for them, and no deterrant to not do it again. They'd probably look at it as a free ticket out of having to raise the kid, so they'd go and do it again.

They should be sterilized though.

That's one of the stupidist statements I've ever heard on AT. My mother smoked throughout my sister's gestation, and she did fine (they're both in great health atm). My aunt smoked for thirty years or so and had seven children, all who've turned out to be healthy, law-abiding citizens.

Odd how that works, isn't it?

I have to wonder how all these kids would have turned out if they had been left in the hands of our wonderful gubment. :roll:

Funny how personal responsibility can be a good thing.
 
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