Poll: Pandemic, Personal Liberty/Freedom vs Public Safety

[dank69]

- Glad we agree then

Life is full of risks and we take reasonable mitigating steps but have to accept that we can never make things risk free or potentially doing so can have greater consequences than the very thing we're looking to mitigate.

Already replied to this point. Children are not only far less likely to die. They are far less likely to see long term complications and far less likely to require hospitalization and ICU beds. For all intents and purposes, an unvaccinated child stands in about the same shoes as a vaccinated adult. Probably safer. The vaccinated are .5% of the deaths and 10% of hospitalizations. With everyone vaxxed or under 12, or both, this won't be a public health crisis anymore.

I disagree with "this isn't *just* a vaccinate and make it go away." Because it is. With the adult population being anywhere near fully vaccinated, this will become a flu. Plenty of cases, some serious complications, some deaths. 30-50K every year. That is why we don't require mask wearing in perpetuity for the flu. Yet we could. I mean, masks are easy, right? So why weren't we already required to wear them? It's not like we didn't have an airborne infectious disease which was killing Americans every year.

They are even less likely to die if they are all wearing masks. Let's pretend it isn't 1 in 100. Let's pretend it's "only" 1 in 5000 or 99.98% survivability, and only 1 in 500 get long covid symptoms. If masks are 75% effective those numbers go to 1 in 20000 and 1 in 2000. That might not seem like a big difference when they are nameless, faceless kids you don't know, but for someone like me with a 6 and 9 year old, it's worth it considering all we're asking is that they wear a mask. This isn't the flu. 1 in 20000 kids are not dying from the flu.

 

[vi edit]

And the other flip isn't just health, it's societal impact. Because of Covid I'm now full time WFH. Let me tell you, WFH with a job that requires focus and a lot of meeting leading with two e-learning kids at home is an absolute shit show.

If schools can't control infections then public panic ensues and they have to shut down again like they did last year. I have *ZERO* desire to deal with e-learning bullshit again in my life. Kids need to be in school. I need to be able to work, and I'm definitely not alone in that. Simple precautions keep all of us in better places.

 

[vi edit]

Pascals wager is what comes to mind here.

Tell me what you *really* lose with mask mandates vs the opposite.

It's not a feeling. It's basic logic.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

The problem IS NOT THE KIDS WITH COVID: the problem is WHO THE KIDS WITH COVID PASS THE VIRUS TO.

Just because adults have access to vaccines DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE VACCINATED thanks to "personal liberties and other similar reasons" AND, even if they are vaccinated, the odds of them catching the virus is higher with Delta variant than it was with previous variants, so they too can pass the virus to someone else, thus prolonging the problem.



Like i said above, the problem IS NOT THE KIDS WITH COVID: the problem is WHO THE KIDS WITH COVID PASS THE VIRUS TO.

-Right? That's what I said.

The kids will give it to unvaccinated dumbfucks. Those dumbfucks will either be fine, get hospitalized, or die. It's the most just sort of culling, the self inflicted kind.

I'm not Jesus, i'm not about to be scourged for their sins.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

They are even less likely to die if they are all wearing masks. Let's pretend it isn't 1 in 100. Let's pretend it's "only" 1 in 5000 or 99.98% survivability, and only 1 in 500 get long covid symptoms. If masks are 75% effective those numbers go to 1 in 20000 and 1 in 2000. That might not seem like a big difference when they are nameless, faceless kids you don't know, but for someone like me with a 6 and 9 year old, it's worth it considering all we're asking is that they wear a mask. This isn't the flu. 1 in 20000 kids are not dying from the flu.

-I send my kids to a public school and they wear masks there. I wear a mask when I go to a store that asks that I mask up. I don't make a scene or make a fuss, I just do it.

I'm not against masking at all. If a school district says the kids need to wear masks, they should. Like if they have to wear uniforms they should.

I'm saying, per the topic title, that I am now against broad sweeping measures to enforce compliance given the fact that we now have a way for people to save themselves and they are willingly rejecting doing so.

 

[woolfe9998]

The problem IS NOT THE KIDS WITH COVID: the problem is WHO THE KIDS WITH COVID PASS THE VIRUS TO.

Just because adults have access to vaccines DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE VACCINATED thanks to "personal liberties and other similar reasons" AND, even if they are vaccinated, the odds of them catching the virus is higher with Delta variant than it was with previous variants, so they too can pass the virus to someone else, thus prolonging the problem.



Like i said above, the problem IS NOT THE KIDS WITH COVID: the problem is WHO THE KIDS WITH COVID PASS THE VIRUS TO.

I kind of also replied to this before. But insofar as children passing it on the unvaccinated adults, at this point those people are operating at their own risk. Yes, even vaccinated adults can pass it on. But risk of death, hospitalization is very low for vaccinated people.

It took me 20 minutes to get vaccinated each time, with travel time. Drive through vaccination center. It cost nothing. There is no excuse at this point. These holdouts are prolonging this as a public health crisis. We need to get vaxxed, turn this into something more akin the to the flu, and get on with our lives. I'm frankly tired of arguing over masks.

 

[rmacd02]

I'm saying, per the topic title, that I am now against broad sweeping measures to enforce compliance given the fact that we now have a way for people to save themselves and they are willingly rejecting doing so.
Quoted from GodisanAthiest.

My reply

Consider, then, the strain on the hospitals that can't treat patients for non covid related diseases and injuries, due to all the anti-vax and anti-mask covidiots taking all available beds.

 

[HomerJS]

I don't understand, can someone please explain. We now have 9 who say their personal liberty trumps the possibility of passing on a deadly virus and killing others. We get constant complaints that this forum doesn't like divergent thought.

I've made once again an invitation for divergent thought yet only 1 person has taken up the challenge. Where are the rest of you?

 

[feralkid]

-Right? That's what I said.

The kids will give it to unvaccinated dumbfucks. Those dumbfucks will either be fine, get hospitalized, or die. It's the most just sort of culling, the self inflicted kind.

I'm not Jesus, i'm not about to be scourged for their sins.

At least not until the next mutant variant breaks through current vaccines and infects you.

 

[H T C]

I'm quoting this again because it seems i need to ...

- For kids we're still looking at a 1% hospitalization rate, which is double the prior hospitalization rate pre-delta but still extremely low.
[...]
- I am completely open to the idea that I may be an idiot, I have never known myself to profess some boundless knowledge or understanding of the world I occupy, but I'll need more than "you're an idiot" to change my position on this.

Maybe my risk tolerance is just higher than other people but the existence of an easily accessible vaccine, combined with a low risk of severe illness or death in children as well as the vaccinated, compounded by the secondary damage (emotional/social) on people as a result of the preceding (justified) lockdowns, with a dash of pragmatism regarding the potential political consequences of "imposing" standards on intransigent folks who maybe need reality to slap them across the face a bit and that's how you end up where I am with this right now.

Frankly we would be better served getting the rest of the world vaccinated rather than all the sovereign state people in butt-fuck Alabama.

Would you still think like that if it were YOUR KIDS in that 1% hospitalization rate or if it were YOUR KIDS that were affected with severe illness or death?

You forget that low risk is HIGHER than zero risk.


Before being vaccinated, i used a mask outside my house ALL THE TIME, indoors AND outdoors, and i use a mask inside MY OWN HOUSE whenever i receive visitors, even if they are FAMILY MEMBERS from other households: i've been doing it this way since April 2020.

I had to wait until being called by our National Health Service in order to get vaccinated and i got my 1st and 2nd doses in June and July respectively.

Do you know how my masking habits have changed since being vaccinated? THEY DIDN'T: i use the same masking habits i used BEFORE being vaccinated.

-I send my kids to a public school and they wear masks there. I wear a mask when I go to a store that asks that I mask up. I don't make a scene or make a fuss, I just do it.

I'm not against masking at all. If a school district says the kids need to wear masks, they should. Like if they have to wear uniforms they should.

I'm saying, per the topic title, that I am now against broad sweeping measures to enforce compliance given the fact that we now have a way for people to save themselves and they are willingly rejecting doing so.

So you have to wait to BEING TOLD TO in order to have the kids use masks: WHY WAIT? Is the pandemic over? Are the kids already vaccinated?

Imagine this scenario:

- no broad sweeping measures to enforce compliance are enacted
- because of the high percentage of people unwilling to get vaccinated and / or using masks combined with no broad sweeping measures, hospitals are SWAMPED with COVID patients, thus SEVERELY endangering the regular hospital care for non-COVID patients
- something serious BUT TREATABLE happens to you: car accident, bad fall, hit by lightning, whatever ..., and now you need to go to the hospital

GUESS WHAT: because YOU and others LIKE YOU were against broad sweeping measures, hospitals are simply too full to take you in and your TREATABLE problem may actually get you killed.

But @ least no broad sweeping measures were put in place: thank God for that ...

 

[Jhhnn]

Pascals wager is what comes to mind here.

Tell me what you *really* lose with mask mandates vs the opposite.

It's not a feeling. It's basic logic.

Yeh, but that's too easy. The contrarians just want to fight for freedumb over something, anything. I get their feelings about having too few choices to make, but that's no excuse for making really bad ones when the opportunity presents itself. They may well break the hospital system in some places.

 

[brycejones]

I don't understand, can someone please explain. We now have 9 who say their personal liberty trumps the possibility of passing on a deadly virus and killing others. We get constant complaints that this forum doesn't like divergent thought.

I've made once again an invitation for divergent thought yet only 1 person has taken up the challenge. Where are the rest of you?

From that list and their posting history they are cowards.

 

[Pohemi]

We get constant complaints that this forum doesn't like divergent thought.

I've made once again an invitation for divergent thought yet only 1 person has taken up the challenge. Where are the rest of you?

From that list and their posting history they are cowards.

Like usual, claims of not accepting "outside thinking" on these boards is just dishonest deflection. They're just hiding their shitty, unjustifiable feels from honest discussion.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

At least not until the next mutant variant breaks through current vaccines and infects you.

-Right, that's going to happen. ~25% of the world population has been fully vaccinated, and I doubt we'll ever get anywhere near global herd immunity.

Covid is gonna go "seasonal". It will happen. Does anyone here think the endgame for this is exterminating Covid like it's smallpox or something?

When it's booster time, I'll booster up.

Again, lotta white knighting in this thread for reasons I don't understand. It's not your job to protect anti-vax idiots from themselves.

 

[MtnMan]

You should sit back and think for ten seconds about why this argument is stupid.

Do you really think that he can count as high as ten, much less think?

 

[MtnMan]

Our life expectancy has dropped at a rate almost no one alive at this time has seen. Opioid epidemic that has been a raging inferno but mostly swept under the rug was really pushing it hard before Covid. And then Covid hit and hasn't let up.

As a former firefighter and having two grandsons that are firefighter/EMTs, we have a scanner running frequently. The number of overdose/possible overdose calls is alarming. The number of first responder calls, and ambulance dispatches for "COVID positive, or COVID symptoms, use full PPE" is even more frequent and disturbing.

I hate to use the word "amused" but I am amused at how many of the possible ODs, are in the parking lot or drive thru of fast food joints. McDonald's seems to be the most common.

Today, with the option of getting vaccinated, vs. not sticking fentanyl or opioids in your veins there is a common denominator, stupidity.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I'm quoting this again because it seems i need to ...



Would you still think like that if it were YOUR KIDS in that 1% hospitalization rate or if it were YOUR KIDS that were affected with severe illness or death?

You forget that low risk is HIGHER than zero risk.

-What's the argument here? Am I OK with bad things happening to my kids? No, of course not. Does that mean I'll never let them drive? Never let them go out cause bad people might do bad things to them?

I don't forget that low risk is higher than zero risk, what kind of argument is that even? We all balance risk factors in everything we do and make a determination based on our own risk tolerances.

Before being vaccinated, i used a mask outside my house ALL THE TIME, indoors AND outdoors, and i use a mask inside MY OWN HOUSE whenever i receive visitors, even if they are FAMILY MEMBERS from other households: i've been doing it this way since April 2020.

I had to wait until being called by our National Health Service in order to get vaccinated and i got my 1st and 2nd doses in June and July respectively.

Do you know how my masking habits have changed since being vaccinated? THEY DIDN'T: i use the same masking habits i used BEFORE being vaccinated.

-Ok??? I support you in taking whatever steps you feel you need to take in order to protect yourself and your own, you have that right.

So you have to wait to BEING TOLD TO in order to have the kids use masks: WHY WAIT? Is the pandemic over? Are the kids already vaccinated?

- I ask my kids to mask up because I'm not a shit-stirrer looking to cause a fight, but the school that the kids go to requires masks so they wear them and are expected to comply with the requirement throughout the day out of respect to their teacher, other kids, and the institution. Not because I am particularly worried about their health and safety from a virus that overwhelmingly has little effect on kids.

Imagine this scenario:

- no broad sweeping measures to enforce compliance are enacted
- because of the high percentage of people unwilling to get vaccinated and / or using masks combined with no broad sweeping measures, hospitals are SWAMPED with COVID patients, thus SEVERELY endangering the regular hospital care for non-COVID patients
- something serious BUT TREATABLE happens to you: car accident, bad fall, hit by lightning, whatever ..., and now you need to go to the hospital

GUESS WHAT: because YOU and others LIKE YOU were against broad sweeping measures, hospitals are simply too full to take you in and your TREATABLE problem may actually get you killed.

But @ least no broad sweeping measures were put in place: thank God for that ...

- Triage my friend. I fully support bumping unvaxed clowns to the bottom of the triage ladder. You're right, it is unfair for someone who could have easily prevented their own illness by taking a tried and tested (and now fully FDA approved here in the states) vaccine to take precedence over someone who was injured in an accident. Additionally, if one of those things happen to you and you are vaccinated, you should take precidence over someone else who had the exact same thing happen to them but are unvaxed. They can pack a vaccinated individual in closer with others and worry far less about the spread of the disease.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

I don't understand, can someone please explain. We now have 9 who say their personal liberty trumps the possibility of passing on a deadly virus and killing others. We get constant complaints that this forum doesn't like divergent thought.

I've made once again an invitation for divergent thought yet only 1 person has taken up the challenge. Where are the rest of you?

- I hope I am included among those 1 people?

 

[H T C]

-What's the argument here? Am I OK with bad things happening to my kids? No, of course not. Does that mean I'll never let them drive? Never let them go out cause bad people might do bad things to them?

I don't forget that low risk is higher than zero risk, what kind of argument is that even? We all balance risk factors in everything we do and make a determination based on our own risk tolerances.

You were dismissing kid's COVID hospitalizations because it was still only 1% hospitalization rate, to which i asked if you'd feel that way if YOUR KIDS were part of THAT 1%, and the same train of thought about severe illness and death.

-Ok??? I support you in taking whatever steps you feel you need to take in order to protect yourself and your own, you have that right.

Not a right: an OBLIGATION.

Not because i'm forced to do it: because it's the RIGHT THING TO DO, under these pandemic circumstances.

- I ask my kids to mask up because I'm not a shit-stirrer looking to cause a fight, but the school that the kids go to requires masks so they wear them and are expected to comply with the requirement throughout the day out of respect to their teacher, other kids, and the institution. Not because I am particularly worried about their health and safety from a virus that overwhelmingly has little effect on kids.

You misunderstood: it's not that kids should wear masks because the school requires them to: it's that THEY DON'T use masks UNLESS their school requires them to.

- Triage my friend. I fully support bumping unvaxed clowns to the bottom of the triage ladder. You're right, it is unfair for someone who could have easily prevented their own illness by taking a tried and tested (and now fully FDA approved here in the states) vaccine to take precedence over someone who was injured in an accident. Additionally, if one of those things happen to you and you are vaccinated, you should take precidence over someone else who had the exact same thing happen to them but are unvaxed. They can pack a vaccinated individual in closer with others and worry far less about the spread of the disease.

In the scenario i described, by the time you arrive @ the hospital, they are FAR TOO BUSY to do that and you don't even get to be seen by a doctor due to lack of personnel: for all intents and purposes, it's a hospital system collapse. A brief GLIMPSE of this happened in Italy in March 2020.

 

[feralkid]

Again, lotta white knighting in this thread for reasons I don't understand. It's not your job to protect anti-vax idiots from themselves.

What you apparently don't understand is that we are trying to protect ourselves from these "anti-vax idiots".

You do know that this virus doesn't mutate "in the wild", right?

Anti-vax idiots are the petri dish in which these mutations/new variants are grown.

 

[HomerJS]

I guess this thread proved all the screaming from some in this forum political differences are stifled is a hollow claim.

What it appears to expose there are people good at throwing unsubstantiated rhetorical bombs but when subjected to direct questioning they crawl away and hide. Kind of like what happens when you put Trump lawyers under oath.

I don't ever want to here that complaint again.

 

[woolfe9998]

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Which of the underlined aspirations doesn't belong here?