so you have a problem with the guy or the festivities?
in the most fundmantel form, it's about gathering and fun for families.
so you have a problem with the guy or the festivities?
in the most fundmantel form, it's about gathering and fun for families.
imo, the only worth answer to your question is to go see professors at your local community college or university.
talk to Minority Studies Professors
talk to African AMerican History Professors
talk to Religious Studies Professors
talk to the local NAACP
talk to Minority Studies Professors
talk to African AMerican History Professors
talk to Religious Studies Professors
talk to the local NAACP
I would be interested in hearing what they have to say, but it is much easier to facilitate a discussion in AT (unless it degrades into a flame fest, which this one hasn't), and it provides an opportunity for many opinions to be presented, faster responses, etc. Because this discussion has progressed so far, I may consider trying to find a copy of the book at my local library in which the founder outlines his creation of the holiday.
any civilized professor would be happy to talk about it. im sure they wont beat you can call you names.
But remember, most of the people on ATOT hold advanced degrees in everything, so there's a chance they might
"Applying your own argument to yourself, if Kwanzaa is racially inclusive holiday, how come all traditions adopted to symbolize Kwanzaa are of 'African' in origin?"
You missed my point. I wasn't the one who started the fallacious argument. I was just trying to demonstrate to AndrewR the weakness in his argument.
"'Cooperative Economics: To build and maintain our own stores, shops and other businesses and to profit from them together.'
Seems like racial isolation there. If I said we white people should build stores and and profit from them together, wouldn't that be wrong?"
Ah! Let's put it this way: Would you say Asians forming a little China Town with all stores and businesses owned and ran by Chinese or Asians makes them racial isolationists? In fact, that's a bit too extreme because the above quote doesn't say only within "our communities". It says to own their own businesses. Therefore, maybe a better comparison would be to [Asian] Indians owning their convenient stores and gas stations, and they encouraging their countrymen to do the same. Would that be racial isolation to you? Mitigating circumstances such as one being denied jobs on the basis of one's skin tone isn't a sufficient reason to try to start your own business as a community, so you don't have to be at the mercy of someone? What about women uniting, which I am aware of, to start their own businesses, many even focused on the interest of women?
It's so ironic that you were arguing that religious holidays and Kwanzaaa being compared was not a fair analogy. I just found this site by a conservative Black group: "Why Black Christians Shouldn't Celebrate Kwanzaa". The basis of their arguments is primarily religion. It verifies my statement that Blacks Christians do in fact celebrate this holiday, so it isn't majority Nation of Islam or some anti-White man group of Blacks that have adopted it (as some of you would like people to believe). If it were celebrated by mostly Black radicalists, I doubt the organisation would have bothered to write an article to appeal to the churches. I have no problem with people just choosing not to celebrate or justifying it for reasons such as religious reasons, since some people have taboos about ideas from non-religious people. In fact, as demonstrated in the above link, there are Blacks who do not celebrate it. However, it just seems ridiculous to me to try to sanction those who choose to and do have a logical basis to adopt it. I wonder if taking out the candles, outfits, and any other elements but leaving the 7 principles would please some people. I wonder if it would still be called an illegitimate holiday by a [former] radical.
P.S.: You do know that Kwanzaa has spread to other regions (i.e., countries) where there's hardly much White people, and predominantly Black. What do you think the founder is up to in those regions? Do you think he's about to make them the next Hitlers, so they'll leave their boundaries and assault people in sovereign nations consisting of people of different skin tones?
You missed my point. I wasn't the one who started the fallacious argument. I was just trying to demonstrate to AndrewR the weakness in his argument.
"'Cooperative Economics: To build and maintain our own stores, shops and other businesses and to profit from them together.'
Seems like racial isolation there. If I said we white people should build stores and and profit from them together, wouldn't that be wrong?"
Ah! Let's put it this way: Would you say Asians forming a little China Town with all stores and businesses owned and ran by Chinese or Asians makes them racial isolationists? In fact, that's a bit too extreme because the above quote doesn't say only within "our communities". It says to own their own businesses. Therefore, maybe a better comparison would be to [Asian] Indians owning their convenient stores and gas stations, and they encouraging their countrymen to do the same. Would that be racial isolation to you? Mitigating circumstances such as one being denied jobs on the basis of one's skin tone isn't a sufficient reason to try to start your own business as a community, so you don't have to be at the mercy of someone? What about women uniting, which I am aware of, to start their own businesses, many even focused on the interest of women?
It's so ironic that you were arguing that religious holidays and Kwanzaaa being compared was not a fair analogy. I just found this site by a conservative Black group: "Why Black Christians Shouldn't Celebrate Kwanzaa". The basis of their arguments is primarily religion. It verifies my statement that Blacks Christians do in fact celebrate this holiday, so it isn't majority Nation of Islam or some anti-White man group of Blacks that have adopted it (as some of you would like people to believe). If it were celebrated by mostly Black radicalists, I doubt the organisation would have bothered to write an article to appeal to the churches. I have no problem with people just choosing not to celebrate or justifying it for reasons such as religious reasons, since some people have taboos about ideas from non-religious people. In fact, as demonstrated in the above link, there are Blacks who do not celebrate it. However, it just seems ridiculous to me to try to sanction those who choose to and do have a logical basis to adopt it. I wonder if taking out the candles, outfits, and any other elements but leaving the 7 principles would please some people. I wonder if it would still be called an illegitimate holiday by a [former] radical.
P.S.: You do know that Kwanzaa has spread to other regions (i.e., countries) where there's hardly much White people, and predominantly Black. What do you think the founder is up to in those regions? Do you think he's about to make them the next Hitlers, so they'll leave their boundaries and assault people in sovereign nations consisting of people of different skin tones?
"'who says Kwanzaa is the Black only version of Christmas?'
'...it was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing holiday ...'"
Again, MacBaine, who says the two are mutually exclusive? Does not it matter the fact that Black churches practise both? Why is something written in a book dated back to the 60s/70s proof that it is what is practised in the year 2003? Is accepting and recognising John Nash's Theory of Equilibrium proof that I accepted his other writings that had racist connotation? Do all economists who accept the Theory of Equilibrium or mathematicians/economists who teach the game theory automatically become racists just by virtue of having learned of these through John Nash, the schizophrenic with racist background? Does the theory itself become illegitimate because it was gotten by a racist and schizophrenic? How could you fail to see the flaw in your argument or keep on ignoring facts that the practise is not necessarily what exactly is in the book?
'...it was chosen to give a Black alternative to the existing holiday ...'"
Again, MacBaine, who says the two are mutually exclusive? Does not it matter the fact that Black churches practise both? Why is something written in a book dated back to the 60s/70s proof that it is what is practised in the year 2003? Is accepting and recognising John Nash's Theory of Equilibrium proof that I accepted his other writings that had racist connotation? Do all economists who accept the Theory of Equilibrium or mathematicians/economists who teach the game theory automatically become racists just by virtue of having learned of these through John Nash, the schizophrenic with racist background? Does the theory itself become illegitimate because it was gotten by a racist and schizophrenic? How could you fail to see the flaw in your argument or keep on ignoring facts that the practise is not necessarily what exactly is in the book?
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
the difference is the mathematical theory of john nash was not racist or separatist. the nut that started kwanza used his foundation of racism and separatism to create the holiday of kwanza. its not a case of guilt by simple association as you would like it to be.
"the difference is the mathematical theory of john nash was not racist or separatist. the nut that started kwanza used his foundation of racism and separatism to create the holiday of kwanza. its not a case of guilt by simple association as you would like it to be."
No, the problem is, the original poster and you have argued that someone being known as a "racist" automatically disqualifies what ideas he brings in. You have not throughout gone through the portion of the idea adopted by the majority Black public. You have not gone through each principle or steps of the ritual to show that it is detrimental to the participants or "excluded". You have not separated the idea from the character of the individual before concluding that there's a correlation between the two. The basis of your argument was that someone being racist automatically makes illegitimate anything he says or suggests. It seems to me your arguments have been that ideas must be looked at holistically, rather than in parts.
No, the problem is, the original poster and you have argued that someone being known as a "racist" automatically disqualifies what ideas he brings in. You have not throughout gone through the portion of the idea adopted by the majority Black public. You have not gone through each principle or steps of the ritual to show that it is detrimental to the participants or "excluded". You have not separated the idea from the character of the individual before concluding that there's a correlation between the two. The basis of your argument was that someone being racist automatically makes illegitimate anything he says or suggests. It seems to me your arguments have been that ideas must be looked at holistically, rather than in parts.
sandorski
No Lifer
- Oct 10, 1999
- 70,768
- 6,336
- 126
This discussion seems entirely pointless, but I digress.
Kwanza is not raced based in practice, it is a celebration of Heritage, just like St Patrick's day is to the Irish. Now before you point out the difference between Irish=heritage(aka Irish are not a Race) and African=race, consider this: Most decedants of Slaves have little to no knowledge of where their acestors came from. One thing is clear though, they came from Africa. So to celebrate their Heritage a generic African Heritage is what is chosen.
Using yours and others arguements, one could claim St Patricks Day as Racially based as well. I mean, who is whiter than the Irish?
Now, since it seems appropriate, is St Patricks day even celebrated in a manner that would befit its' supposed originator St Patrick? Holidays are what they are as a result of how People celebrate them, not on some single person at some distant time(even Christmas applies, though I'm sure many would argue against it).
UglyCasanova
Lifer
- Mar 25, 2001
- 19,275
- 1,361
- 126
I haven't read the whole thread, but I'll chip in my $0.02 anyways.
I say fvck it, who cares? Let them celebrate being black or whatever the hell Kwanzaa is about, I don't care. Do I think it is stupid? Yes. Will you ever see me dressing up in a moo moo and lighting little candles and whatever else they do? No. Do I give a sh!t if they do it? Hell no! Why should I?
I say fvck it, who cares? Let them celebrate being black or whatever the hell Kwanzaa is about, I don't care. Do I think it is stupid? Yes. Will you ever see me dressing up in a moo moo and lighting little candles and whatever else they do? No. Do I give a sh!t if they do it? Hell no! Why should I?
What about the WB? The WB = BET Lite.
Where's WET? If I created that station, I'd be labeled a bigot and a racist, but it's ok to have BET. Double standards anyone?
TNN/Spike TV = WETOriginally posted by: BostonRedSox
What about the WB? The WB = BET Lite.
Where's WET? If I created that station, I'd be labeled a bigot and a racist, but it's ok to have BET. Double standards anyone?
Alright... the latest posts, having nothing to do with the argument, seem like they are just to invoke a racist flamefest. All that should be argued has been argued, both points have been made. I maintain my opinion, and I would like this thread to end before my argument is brought down by racist trolls.
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