POLL: How would you rather be taxed?

[PrinceofWands]

<< What is there to discuss? You are a Loser. You are a 30 year old, $12/hour night security guard at a hospital. Loser. What do you have. Anything. Oh you have your morals do you. OK. Where is your kid at? At her mothers, loser? You have the same story every sterno bum on the street has <drunken slur> " I coulda been the President of IBM if I wanted to". What has all your high moral tone got you. Divorced, fired frome every job you ever had, no college degree. Yeah you've showed us all. I'm sure you know your kid and her mother call you "the loser" don't you. Yeah you have really put up the good fight against "the man". HAHAHAHAHA. I can't wait to hear why you don't become a teacher. Probably some BS about the "corrupt education system". You can rationalize your being a loser anyway you want but the fact remains that you have done absolutely nothing in your entire sorry life except tell everyone in the unemployment line how moral you are. Way to go, I'll bet your daughter is proud of dad the loser. Oh and unlike you I don't wish you dead. This society needs people like you. We need someone to point at and tell our kids "that's a loser, that's what happens when you are too lazy and stupid to finish school or hold a job". No Princess I don't wish you dead. You deserve to live the life you've made for yourself. You deserve it. I have to go now. I'm going to get in my SUV, with my two kids and my wife, go to baseball practice, then go shopping. I need some computer stuff, the wife and kids need new clothes. We can afford to do this because we made more than 4 times what you made last year. We did it serving our country and didn't compromise our morals or principles even a little bit. You can call us sheep if you wan't but you are also a sheep. You are that lone outcast sheep standing just outside the herd. You know the one that gets eaten by the wolves. Smart sheep stay in the herd where making change is possible. Stupid loser sheep stay outside the herd and get eaten. Way to go loser. >>



We will address in reverse order.

Have you ever read a history book in your entire life? Name one nation that was changed from INSIDE. Just one. What's that? Can't do it? Of course not. Because change ALWAYS comes from OUTSIDE the herd. The sheep inside are too fattened on their owners lies to attempt to broaden their horizons. Read something, then bring me facts to dispute.

Yes, go spend your money on nothings, that improve nothing, and in fact damage the environment needlessly for your own arrogance and greed. In all that money you made, how much did you donate to charities? to causes? How many hours did you spend volunteering your time to help others? Uh-huh, pretty much what I thought. Because of course Dave is better than other people, right? No. Loser, dave, is someone that lives for themself. Loser, is someone who thinks they're somehow more special than others. Loser, dave, is anyone who lives blindly within the system and never grows a bit, because they're too afraid and too narrow minded to consider the alternatives.

Now to the idiotic personal attacks.

My daughter has never once accepted going back to her moms house after being with me. In fact, my ex continuously files attempts to gain full custody because our daughter ALWAYS complains about her and her boytoy of the week. She ONLY wants to be with me because I treat her as a human, and not an inconvenience. My daughter is beginning to show increadible maturity by putting the best interests of others ahead of herself, and she's 6! She strives always to learn, questions everything. It pisses her mom off terribly.

I have accomplished volumes with my life. I've read more, learned more, experienced more than most people ever will. The fact is, that you are too stupid to understand that school/grades/social strata etc have nothing to do with learning, wisdom, knowledge, ability, or skill. Any time you want I will destroy you utterly in 8 out of 10 tests you choose yourself, because I know what learning really is, and I'm damn good at it. You are a parrot, mimicking what gets you a treat from your masters. You learn nothing, and claim enlightenment. How do you want it dave? SAT, asvab, IQ, specific subject, trivia, certifications, reasoning??? You name the test, I'll own you. Of course you wont, because if you ever did and lost your fragile ego would shatter beyond repair. I joined our nations military during a time of war and served 2 yrs, earning an honorable discharge. Your service is no greater than mine friend. I have traveled most of the states in our nation, talked to the people, learned the history, valued the differences. I have gone to different schools, studied different subjects, met entirely different classes of people. I have done much. I volunteer, I make a difference. I have directly save lives dave. How many people did you DIRECTLY and without assistance save? How many times have you administered life saving care? No, you're not impressive to me...not with all your money and 'perfect life'. I do more than you every day.

I am not a teacher because it requires a masters degree in this state, and I don't yet have one. That's pretty straight forward. Things have to be done in a certain order and meet certain requirements, no biggie...it'll happen. And in the meantime I am always accomplishing more, doing more, becoming more. Are you published? Have you participated directly in our government? Been on committees, protested, rallied, supported, written letters, given talks, chosen state animals...anything at all that really gets you involved? No, of course not, because you're too worried about yourself dave.

And what you still fail to recognize my misguided countryman, is that fundamentally, having 1 good pure true moral, is more important than all the jobs, money, service, family, one can ever have. In the end, it's just you alone in that pine box. Your values, your morals, your accomplishments, your giving, your compassion, your knowledge, your wisdom...these are your only companions on the other side. You are looking at a lonely, lonely afterlife dave.


Again, you talk loud and much, but say little. I always offer to match any challenge, provide any documentation, go the extra mile to support my causes and beliefs. You claim superiority from a remote location and never rise to meet any challenge. That is the sign of the loser dave. The empty soul. Good luck to you, though I know it simply is wasted on you.

 

[PrinceofWands]

<< PoW - I have always refused to do what is wrong my whole career. That has included facing down some very, very high level people. Funny thing is, I've never been fired. Maybe you need to work on your technique. Your last little rant does scream "loser" all over it, though. I can accept that it is possible to make a poor marriage choice and get set back. Failing multiple courses and getting fired from multiple jobs indicates to me that you're the problem, not something external to you. >>




You are correct in many ways. I know that I am different from most (though not all). I know that to 'fit in' I'm the one who needs to change. What you seem to miss is that I have no desire to 'fit in'. Why work at a job that requires inappropriate behavior? Why concentrate on grades instead of learning? What greater good is served in these ways? My brother says we're a lot alike, except that I say what I think and feel, and he just nods and smiles then does it his own way anyway. I find my way more honest. *shrug* that's all.

 

[wyvrn]

Well the discussion has certainly gotten interesting since POW joined. You seem like a bitter young man that has had a hard life. Let me tell you what mine has looked like so far:

My father died of cancer when I was two years old. My mother, a secretary, raised me and my brother until she was 58 years of age on a meager salary. But she provided a loving home and all the essentials. I never had a computer growing up, had to wear hand me downs, and had to hold jobs since I was *10* years old to pay for anything I wanted. At 10 and above, I worked as a soccer referee for the local rec leagues. I did odd jobs like mowing lawns, raking leaves, etc to anyone in my neighborhood that would let me. When I was 15, I worked my first hourly job at a local Winn Dixie, sacking groceries. A few months later on my 16th birthday, I made cashier. 6 months later I was a supervisor and worked their for a year. At 16, my mother was struck with cancer. She had been having bad headaches, and was told by the doctors she had a tumor the size of an orange in her head that had to be removed immediateely, or she would die in a couple of months. Since the tumor was so big, the doctors had no choice but to remove some of her brain. She lost her short term memory, became very paranoid, and could no longer take care of herself. Guess who took care of her? Yep, me. I also paid bills with my part time job that her disability income could not afford, so that we could keep our house. I distinctly remember times when there was no food in the cabinets and the only way we ate was by kind friends that brought food over to help. At an early age, I learned firsthand how precious and fragile life can be. I was also struck with Epstein Barr virus, which wasn't diagnosed into after 1 year after I contracted it because 2 doctors have never even heard of the virus. Thankfully, a resident at local hospital studied it his last year in med school and diagnosed me. I had next to no white blood cells left to fight infection, and was continually in a state of sickness. I missed the first half of my senior high school year in bed all day, every day. Ten years of clinical depression followed because of that sickness.

I did manage, however, to keep up my honor roll grades. Got accepted to Texas A&M University and did pretty well. My mother became very sick during my fourth year, and I was kicked out of school for missing my finals. I stayed home until she died, then moved in with my (at the time) GF's parents, and found a job doing ISP support. I have since then taken more classes at local colleges and will earn my associates at the end of this year. The I will go on to finish my bachelors in business. I have earned many computer certs, and also am a licensed broker as stated earlier. I just started my own computer business, it is slow but I can see the growth and I am excited about it. In high school, I was secretary and then VP of the club that performed highway cleanups, recycled for the entire school, visited Scottish Rite hospital (sick children), and fed the homeless at Union Gospel mission house. I also do free computer technical support for many friends and family, and have known to give free computers to anyone that cannot afford one (much like I couldn't growing up).

I got my financial education because I was struggling with too much CC debt. I have never in my life been accused of being wealthy. I simply have worked myself from the bottom up to my current good financial standing. All my efforts have been my own, nothing was given to me. As I have stated earlier, all of the already wealthy people that I know started in similar circumstances, most of them immigrants, separated by the families by an ocean, that came to America with nothing but the clothes they wore. They wanted to become wealthy so they could bring their families to America. They were not pampered rich kids trading stocks on the computer.

So you see, we come from similar humble backgrounds, but have very different views on money. I believe money is neither good nor bad, it just depends on what you use if for. If you take care of your family, provide a nice home and college educations, how can that be a bad thing? What is bad about planning for retirement instead of asking the govt. to take care of you? Most people, even on modest budgets, can start saving money today and have enough so that they will not rely solely on Social Security for their retirement. But you have to educate yourself financially, as I have done, and realize money is neither good nor evil. Plus, if I become wealthy enough, one of my goals is to build a library at the Buddhist temply my wife's family attends. They have very few books and don't have a place where the young can come and study. This means more youths are out on the streets, and that is a trend that must stop. In addition, my largest financial goal is to give a $1 million donation to Cancer research, because both of my parents died from it.

Not all people that want to become wealthy are evil or pampered snots. I really think you are jaded by your life, and lash out against anyone who has had more success than you, regardless of where they started. I really feel sorry for you, but I will never agree with your views on money and taxes. Or socialistic policies for that matter.

 

[PrinceofWands]

wyvrn - You sound like a truly magnificant person...one of probably 3 or 4 I have ever met. I've met thousands of people. What does this tell you about people in general? I'm glad there are awesome people like you around...maybe if there were more like you there wouldn't be so much reason to despise the rest of humanity. But, there isn't...you're one of a very very very very small percentage...and in the end, I'm sorry to say, I believe you'll fail. You'll get killed at a 7/11 by a 42 time convicted criminal over $3 and change, or you'll be involved in a car wreck because the company found it cheaper to pay out settlements than have a recall. Or maybe you'll be one of the 3 or 4 people every 1000 years that really does make it completely and has the greatest life you can live. More power to you.

That doesn't change, nor excuse the greed and vileness of people in general. Nor does it alter in any way the corruption present within the system. Nor will it change the fact that all things happen the same as they always have, and eventually this nation will fall in EXACTLY the same way all others have and will. I'm really sorry to be so negative, but it's pretty much all I've ever seen. After 30 years of constant searching, questing, and learning, about the only absolute I've found is that all we have is what we believe, because everything else generally sucks.

 

[wyvrn]

That is a bleak look on life. I choose to be happy and optimistic, because I don't believe in fate. I believe people make life what they want it. I wish you the best and hope your life changes in a very spiritual, positive way.



<< wyvrn - You sound like a truly magnificant person...one of probably 3 or 4 I have ever met. I've met thousands of people. What does this tell you about people in general? I'm glad there are awesome people like you around...maybe if there were more like you there wouldn't be so much reason to despise the rest of humanity. But, there isn't...you're one of a very very very very small percentage...and in the end, I'm sorry to say, I believe you'll fail. You'll get killed at a 7/11 by a 42 time convicted criminal over $3 and change, or you'll be involved in a car wreck because the company found it cheaper to pay out settlements than have a recall. Or maybe you'll be one of the 3 or 4 people every 1000 years that really does make it completely and has the greatest life you can live. More power to you.

That doesn't change, nor excuse the greed and vileness of people in general. Nor does it alter in any way the corruption present within the system. Nor will it change the fact that all things happen the same as they always have, and eventually this nation will fall in EXACTLY the same way all others have and will. I'm really sorry to be so negative, but it's pretty much all I've ever seen. After 30 years of constant searching, questing, and learning, about the only absolute I've found is that all we have is what we believe, because everything else generally sucks. >>

 

[Michael]

PoW - If you concentrate on grades instead of "learning" (they're not mutually exclusive, they actually go togther, btw) and on keeping jobs and "fitting in", you will be much more capable of providing for your daughter. If it was just you, then being a rebel would be fine, but I suggest stepping back and taking a look at the real effects of your actions.

You claim you want to do good. You can do far more good from taking principled stands from within than you can by railing on the outside.

I also think that your challenge of competing on any subject is dumb. I'm very successful and am considered to be smart. I'm also wise, almost everyone can beat me in their area of specialty/job skill. I would never toss out a challenge like you did. That type of challenge again screams "loser" and "no self worth".

Michael

ps - I have far greater credentials in finance and business than passing a Series 7 exam, so I am interested in the answers to the questions I posed.

 

[Siddhartha]

I am always amused by people who want goverment, one which of course should only benefit them and their interests, but do not want to pay for it.

 

[MrDudeMan]

yeah but he still has 800k left over to play with, instead of everyone else's 40k.


people that are rich need to suck it up and pay for their share. i come from a semi-middle class family and we get by paying our share of taxes...so can everyone else


rich people happen to be the most stingy (not all, but most in my experience are), afterall...that is how they became rich, they dont give anyone anything

the system is obviously not doing too bad since we havnt all died from mass chaos

 

[Lucky]

people that are rich need to suck it up and pay for their share



have you read anything in this thread? Havent we proved the rich *do* pay their share? In fact, *far* more than their share?

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< have accomplished volumes with my life. I've read more, learned more, experienced more than most people ever will. The fact is, that you are too stupid to understand that school/grades/social strata etc have nothing to do with learning, wisdom, knowledge, ability, or skill. Any time you want I will destroy you utterly in 8 out of 10 tests you choose yourself, because I know what learning really is, and I'm damn good at it. You are a parrot, mimicking what gets you a treat from your masters. You learn nothing, and claim enlightenment. How do you want it dave? SAT, asvab, IQ, specific subject, trivia, certifications, reasoning??? You name the test, I'll own you. Of course you wont, because if you ever did and lost your fragile ego would shatter beyond repair. I joined our nations military during a time of war and served 2 yrs, earning an honorable discharge. Your service is no greater than mine friend. I have traveled most of the states in our nation, talked to the people, learned the history, valued the differences. I have gone to different schools, studied different subjects, met entirely different classes of people. I have done much. I volunteer, I make a difference. I have directly save lives dave. How many people did you DIRECTLY and without assistance save? How many times have you administered life saving care? No, you're not impressive to me...not with all your money and 'perfect life'. I do more than you every day. >>


You pick it. Anyway you want to measure it. You have done nothing in your life except whine and bitch. Your position in this world proves it. Claiminig how much smarter you are than everyone else and making $12/hour as a security guard. Yeah you've had a real impact on this world. You can keep ridiculing the military that was so glad to see you go but through that same military I do more good in one morning of any week than you could ever dream of doing in a lifetime. You are going to be able to do great things from that influential position you hold there as the night shift rent a cop, Princess. Great things. You are a loser through and through blaming others for your sorry lot in life, claiming some high moral ground. Rationalize it anyway you want the fact still remains you are a loser. Nothing more and probably less. With all your claims of superior intelligence you have accomplished nothing and at your current rate of acceleration I am sure you never will. Loser.

Edit- not that it makes any difference because I'm sure your test scores are better (you being a YN or PN in the Navy and all) ASVAB taken in 1983 scored 93, ACT taken in 1983 scored 29, SAT taken in 1985 scored 630 math, 690 verbal.

 

[charrison]

I have to agree POW is just jaded and whining, but then I guess I am an another evil wealthy person. I worked alot of minimum wage jobs to put myself thru school and get where I am in life today. I have not sold my soul to be where I am. I worked for it. If my boss asked me to do something immorral, illegal or unethical I would quit well before they had a chance to fire me. In my 15 years of working I have yet to have this occur.


I find it ironic that you would like to become a teacher, but yet you have also found your classes limit your creativity. You want to become what you dislike. You cant teach a classroom full of people without stepping on someones creativity, since all people are not alike. Also if you are learning, you do not have to worry about grades. If you are not learning, then grades are not issue. When you teach, are you going to be able fail the non-performers or will you just give them A for effort?

Time to buckle down and finish something and make yourself better. If you are content being a security guard, so be it.
If you are not content being a security guard, work for what you want. If you want to get a masters to teach, it is time change your nonconformist moralist attitude long enough to get education required to do what you want to do. They cant give you a masters without knowing you have learned, hence there is a thing called grades. Learn to live with them.

 

[Zebo]

Mike-

Corporate welfare is a very difficult thing to accretain nationally. You have localities in a bidding war for companies and give away free land and baseball stadiums at the taxpayers expense. They also give these companies tax breaks in the millions to get these companies in thier local .. the return in taxes from the workers is ALWAYS less than what they give away. You have local governments as well as our federal now bleeding red ink. Also there are direct freebees like giving away the cellular Bandwidths to large US corps by congress, becasue they don't want other foreign countries to outbid us in an auction. yes again the arguement is again it keeps jobs here. But At&t has layed off hundreds of thousands here and moved thier call centers to India.

Then of course you direct payments to the very rich corperations. Many would like to say the corporations are creating jobs this way but the fiqures indicate this is also false:
This is a list of the 8 corporate direct payment welfare recipients that were listed in the first article of the Inquirer series, comparing corporate welfare received to the number of people layed off in that time (1990-1994).

Welfare recieved Employment
GM $110,600,000 -104,000
IBM 58,000,000 -100,000
AT&T 35,000,000 -1,077 * #
GE 25,400,000 -80,000
Amoco 23,600,000 -8,300 *
DuPont 15,200,000 -29,961
Motorola 15,100,000 +9,600 *
Citicorp 9,600,000 -15,700
* exceptions to the trend
# AT&T layed off 40,000 people shortly after this accounting

Here is a very detailed accounting of where our money accually goes. It's very complicated (would you expect anything less) because they don't want the middle class to understand where their money is going from the taxes they pay. It's very simplistic to blame the poor and much easier since that money is in the from of 116 billion direct payments..

 

[charrison]

Carbonyl,

I agree. It is time to stop giving out corperate welfare. Time to stop paying farmers to not produce. Time to stop giving out welfare alltogether. Time to stop the wastefull SS tax and medicare taxes. If the govt would stop wasting 2 trillion($2,000,000,000,000) every year, no one..rich or poor would complain much about taxes. As long as govt spending continues to rise, there is no end in site.

 

[Zebo]

Dave- I admire your service to our country and see your POV but I think your comming down a little hard on PoW. If the amount of money you make makes you a loser or a winner then all is lost. Is OJ a winner? He's worth about 8 million and gets 15,000 a month from his pension. He was a damn good runner and athlete but has spent his entire life stepping on people. I once met him parking valet in HS and he was a total a$$hole. Got in a fight at the course then cursed out the golf superintendant and some women in the bar. That's a loser. Plus his cheap a$$ never tipped.

What's wrong with being a security gaurd? How does what you do make you better? He was certainly more valueable to that ladies life he saved than you were. I've never understood this mentallity of what job you do makes you a winner or loser. My dad drove a Pepsi truck all his life and my mom always made more as a university professor working 1/2 time is he a loser? Not if you ask me. He is a revered patiarch when all my brothers and sisters come with their children for visits. And it's not the size of his wallet that makes this so.

I think you as well as many people here have forgotten what's important in life..

 

[charrison]

Carbonyl,

There is nothing wrong with being a security guard. But you cant say anyone who has a better job(ie makes more money), has sold their sole or is immoral for doing so. This is what POW truely beleives one has to do to make more than 12.50/hour.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< I think you as well as many people here have forgotten what's important in life.. >>


I think you misjudge me. I don't put this uniform on to get rich. Far from it. With my experience and education I could be making ( and have been offered) a lot more money elsewhere. I'm finishing what I started. I think I do important work and I know some of the things I have done in the past have been important to the security of the nation/world. I have sacrificed a lot (personally) to accomplish that so when some jackass starts ridiculing that, I tend to get pissed. I really get pissed when the same jackass starts saying how everyone is compromising themselves because we are making a little money, about how smart she is, how she could have done this, could have done that but she wouldn't compromise her morals or that learning was more important than grades so she quit school. What a crock of sh1t. It's just rationalization of the fact that for whatever reason you have not been succesfull in anything you have ever started. You can tell everyone how smart you are and all that other BS that PoW spews forth but when you get right down to it it's still just the BS rationalizing railing of a loser. Nothing more.

 

[Gaard]

<< << make about 12.50 an hour.
I work harder and smarter than anyone I know,
Quit buying worthless SUV's and start using your money to actually HELP someone else.
It isn't that I couldn't make money, or have a "professional" job...it's that those things almost always run at odds with my values >>


Ah the rationalizing rant of a self-absorbed loser. Thanks for confirming my suspicions about you.

These are my favorites.


<< I have been fired from MANY jobs because I refuse to do what is wrong when asked. I have failed many classes because I refuse to accept an inadequate system. >>


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Well I guess you showed them. ROFLMAO at the PrincessofWands. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA >>



Correct me if I'm wrong Dave, but isn't this your first post in this thread? So you insult POW and naturally he retaliates. And then you use the fact that he retaliated as an excuse for being a jackass towards him?

<< I have sacrificed a lot (personally) to accomplish that so when some jackass starts ridiculing that, I tend to get pissed. >>



I didn't mean to participate in this thread but your use of a man's wages as a basis for him being a loser or not kind of bothered me. I'm by no means a rich man, but my family would tell you, as would I, that I'm in no way a loser.

If you truly believe that the amount of money a man earns is what makes you a loser or not, then the next time you call someone 'loser' you might want to look in the mirror.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< Correct me if I'm wrong Dave, but isn't this your first post in this thread? So you insult POW and naturally he retaliates. And then you use the fact that he retaliated as an excuse for being a jackass towards him? >>


Correct me if I'm wrong Gaard but I was talking to PoW and Carbon. Not you. Shove off.


<< I didn't mean to participate in this thread but your use of a man's wages as a basis for him being a loser or not kind of bothered me. I'm by no means a rich man, but my family would tell you, as would I, that I'm in no way a loser.
If you truly believe that the amount of money a man earns is what makes you a loser or not, then the next time you call someone 'loser' you might want to look in the mirror >>


You should have gone with your first instinct or at least read the whole thread. PoW is a loser because she blames her inability to finish school or hold a good paying job on her high morals and inability to compromise and her labeling as "sheep" anyone who has or does. It's just the rationalizing rant of a whiny loser. Nothing more.

 

[Gaard]

<< Correct me if I'm wrong Gaard but I was talking to PoW and Carbon. Not you. Shove off. >>


Sir! Yes sir!!

If you notice, there's only 2 question marks in my post...which, obviously means 2 questions. Instead of answering either you tell me to shove off. IMO, that's a sign of being a loser. Sir!

It wasn't cool of POW to ridicule what you

<< have sacrificed a lot (personally) to accomplish >>

, but did you expect him to sit idly by while you call him a loser? Are there now rules on what you can and cannot ridicule when hurling insults?

 

[Michael]

Carbonyl - I'll wade through the articles on your link in a little more detail later, but they're not a "detailed accounting" by a long shot. I even question the "corporate welfare" part of the description.

I'll tell you a few things about my point of view. The Tax Code exists and it is a detailed set of rules and regulations that sets forth what you can and cannot do. I have zero issue with anyone who complies with the laws and pays less taxes by doing so.

I also support companies (and individuals) paying less taxes. The less taxes a company pays, the more it has to invest in the business and the more competitive it is on a global scale. That means more wealth for shareholders and more jobs.

One big "corporate welfare" item that was cited was the tax deduction for stock options. When an employee cashes in options, the law allows the company to deduct the difference between the market value and the strike price as a tax deduction. The law treats this as a compensation expense. The employee treats the gain as ordinary income (I don't want to get into all the myriad forms of options) and is taxed on the gain. So the IRS gets the money, just from the employee, not the company.

Now the accounting for stock options gives companies a choice. They can deduct it from their reported income as an expense, or they can not report it as an expense but disclose it in a footnote. I don't want to get too deep into my personal views on this, but that is the actual US GAAP rules. The vast majority of companies do not expense the options on their income statements. Since it is expensed on the tax income statements, an illusion of a lower tax rate is created. Actually, the company incurred compensation expense as legally defined. So they paid all the tax they were supposed to, but it looks like they didn't when you compare reported income to actual cash taxes paid.

Another item is reported depreciation vs. tax depreciation. The tax code is prejudiced towards investing in capital equipment. In almost all cases, the tax depreciation is faster than the reported depreciation. Again, the tax income statement shows far less profit than the reported income. In this case, an item called "deferred income tax" (a liability) is created, but the factions that decry corporate welfare just focus on the actual taxes paid during the year compared to the reported income. They ignore the liability that is created. As long as a company continues to grow and invest, it will always be ahead because of the accelerated depreciation. However, this does flatten out if a company's growth flattens out.

The last item I'll discuss in this post (long enough already) is R&D tax credits. The government has decided that R&D is important. Rather than spending the R&D money themselves, the government has decided that it is far more efficient for companies to decide where to spend the money. They give the companies extra credit over and above the actual dollars spent. This again creates an illusion that the company is paying less in taxes than its earning indicate it should.

In the end, companies don't vote. They can spend lobbying dollars, but it is the people who elect the government and the government decides what to tax. If you don't agree that investment in capital equipment is good or that R&D spending is good and should be promoted, talk to your local Congressman about it.

Michael (I don't use Mike, btw)

ps - I'll have to look back into time to see if the companies listed really fired that many employees or if most of it came from selling division to other companies. That's another favourite statistical trick - looking at the decline in the total number employed and calling it "lay-offs" instead of what it really was.

 

[UltraQuiet]

<< If you notice, there's only 2 question marks in my post...which, obviously means 2 questions. Instead of answering either you tell me to shove off. IMO, that's a sign of being a loser. Sir! >>


I didn't have to respond to you at all. I don't owe you an explanation about anything but I will just this once. I have been reading PoW threads for months now and it always the same old garbage. I have decided that I will tell her how much of a loser I think she is every time she does. End of story. This will be the one and only time I explain myself to you. BTW you can take that SIR! and shove it up your ass.

 

[Gaard]

<< I have decided that I will tell her how much of a loser I think she is every time she does. >>


You truly are a man of honor, sir.

"There's this one dude on AT. He's a real dick. I've decided that every time he posts I'm going to call him a loser. It'll be great!"

 

[Red Dawn]

Hey I just wished they'd kiss me first before they f***** me

 

[Michael]

I think I'm supporting another family or two out there. I really don't mind that much. It would be nice to meet them, though.

Michael

 

[Zebo]

<< Carbonyl - I'll wade through the articles on your link in a little more detail later, but they're not a "detailed accounting" by a long shot. I even question the "corporate welfare" part of the description.

I'll tell you a few things about my point of view. The Tax Code exists and it is a detailed set of rules and regulations that sets forth what you can and cannot do. I have zero issue with anyone who complies with the laws and pays less taxes by doing so.

I also support companies (and individuals) paying less taxes. The less taxes a company pays, the more it has to invest in the business and the more competitive it is on a global scale. That means more wealth for shareholders and more jobs.

One big "corporate welfare" item that was cited was the tax deduction for stock options. When an employee cashes in options, the law allows the company to deduct the difference between the market value and the strike price as a tax deduction. The law treats this as a compensation expense. The employee treats the gain as ordinary income (I don't want to get into all the myriad forms of options) and is taxed on the gain. So the IRS gets the money, just from the employee, not the company.

Now the accounting for stock options gives companies a choice. They can deduct it from their reported income as an expense, or they can not report it as an expense but disclose it in a footnote. I don't want to get too deep into my personal views on this, but that is the actual US GAAP rules. The vast majority of companies do not expense the options on their income statements. Since it is expensed on the tax income statements, an illusion of a lower tax rate is created. Actually, the company incurred compensation expense as legally defined. So they paid all the tax they were supposed to, but it looks like they didn't when you compare reported income to actual cash taxes paid.

Another item is reported depreciation vs. tax depreciation. The tax code is prejudiced towards investing in capital equipment. In almost all cases, the tax depreciation is faster than the reported depreciation. Again, the tax income statement shows far less profit than the reported income. In this case, an item called "deferred income tax" (a liability) is created, but the factions that decry corporate welfare just focus on the actual taxes paid during the year compared to the reported income. They ignore the liability that is created. As long as a company continues to grow and invest, it will always be ahead because of the accelerated depreciation. However, this does flatten out if a company's growth flattens out.

The last item I'll discuss in this post (long enough already) is R&D tax credits. The government has decided that R&D is important. Rather than spending the R&D money themselves, the government has decided that it is far more efficient for companies to decide where to spend the money. They give the companies extra credit over and above the actual dollars spent. This again creates an illusion that the company is paying less in taxes than its earning indicate it should.

In the end, companies don't vote. They can spend lobbying dollars, but it is the people who elect the government and the government decides what to tax. If you don't agree that investment in capital equipment is good or that R&D spending is good and should be promoted, talk to your local Congressman about it.

Michael (I don't use Mike, btw)

ps - I'll have to look back into time to see if the companies listed really fired that many employees or if most of it came from selling division to other companies. That's another favourite statistical trick - looking at the decline in the total number employed and calling it "lay-offs" instead of what it really was. >>



Sorry I did'nt follow though the links for you since Yes there are a lot. Here or .here would be a good place to start or the Cato inst. links for a detailed breakdown. But remember this does'nt include the local government grifting. Both those are libertarian orgs.

I read you entire post and agree with your economic theory but at what price? And thats the real crux of all these debates. Liberals know if you lower taxes on the rich there be more investment; DUH. But it has always shown to make larger gap between the haves and have nots. BTW a have can quit working tomorrow and thier wealthy lifestyle will not change. Eventually you get into a situation like we had before FDR where a select few robber barrons contolling everything, very low wages, non exsistant middle class and child labor.


As for R&D the problem I have with that is only the big companies get the money and they are the least in need of it. I went though this when I was trying to fund research for an in-line chlorinator for wastewater munis. At the time I worked for a relativly small company who applied for a grant with a really revolutionary idea. We could'nt even get in the front door so we sold it to LM. They ended up hiring all of our team and paying for the patent. The funding came from the exact same proposal we made and they submitted thiers without a working prototype? It's simple really, LM had the guys in Washington and we did'nt. Everyone there knew that was the case and it works that way everyday.

Oh and Michael I used Mike because I'm for all practical purposes illiterate and Mike I knew how to spell. I suffer from dislexia since birth. And Too much chemistry and math I guess? No Offence