POLL: How would you rather be taxed?

[Platinum]

yup, its not true that the poor don't pay taxes theres sales tax? regressive totally...and definetly hurts the poor way more. we take the middle ground here, our sales tax is regressive, but our income tax is progressive. we're not pure anything, which works out for the best

That statement was applicable to income taxes :frown: But anyways, I agree...this tax thing is sorta like a compromise...you want regressive, we have sales tax. You want flat, we have social security. You want progressive, we have income tax.

 

[Linflas]

<< frankly you don't expect the poor to be paying for the space station and those awesome military toys we have right? >>


Actually yes I do. I am funny in that I expect every citizen to pay for services received. Once again 17% of $1,000,000.00 is a hell of a lot more than 17% of $20,000.00 but it is fair in that the percentage is identical in both cases.

 

[Nefrodite]

Actually yes I do. I am funny in that I expect every citizen to pay for services received. Once again 17% of $1,000,000.00 is a hell of a lot more than 17% of $20,000.00 but it is fair in that the percentage is identical in both cases.


ok i guess i should have been more clear. you don't expect the poor to disproportionatly pay for our toys right? and under a "fair" flat tax we'd have less revenues to spend on toys anyways, your 17% of 1mil arguement is a tad funny. lets break it down. 17% of that 20k wipes out the 20k guy. it actually takes food out of his mouth and or childrens mouths. under a more reasonable example it would take away from his retirement savings, college fund for his kids, etc etc etc. that same 17K would barely dent the lifestyle of the 1mil guy. thats the fundamental difference.

 

[Platinum]

Actually yes I do. I am funny in that I expect every citizen to pay for services received. Once again 17% of $1,000,000.00 is a hell of a lot more than 17% of $20,000.00 but it is fair in that the percentage is identical in both cases.

Ok, if your sense of fairness is that everyone should pay the same percentage, then if I suggest that we eliminate the current regressive sales tax and make everyone pay a fix percentage of their income. Suppose it cost 5 billion for all essential government cost(very exagerrated), like fixing road, paying police and schools... You are suggesting everyone pay the same percentage. Then if the rich wants to buy a car, they have to pay 8% tax of their salary. If they want to buy a game, charge them maybe 2% tax of their salary. Then we will have your so call "fair".

 

[AdamDuritz99]

I'll admit that I don't know much on how changing taxation would effect the economy. But flat tax sounds fair to me. I'm sure there is a lot of disadvantages too.


peace
sean

 

[Linflas]

<< Then we will have your so call "fair". >>


Nothing so called about it. I refuse to accept your definition of fair in which it is perfectly ok to discriminate against individuals because they were born with the ability to obtain and amass wealth. That is really the bottom line in all these discussions. Redistributionists feel it is perfectly fine to take from those that produce and give it to those that do not. You throw about words like progressive and regressive to cover what you do but the bottom line is that you take property and wealth from a group of citizens and give it to another group and claim that somehow this is "fair".

 

[Nefrodite]

<< Then we will have your so call "fair". >>


Nothing so called about it. I refuse to accept your definition of fair in which it is perfectly ok to discriminate against individuals because they were born with the ability to obtain and amass wealth. That is really the bottom line in all these discussions. Redistributionists feel it is perfectly fine to take from those that produce and give it to those that do not. You throw about words like progressive and regressive to cover what you do but the bottom line is that you take property and wealth from a group of citizens and give it to another group and claim that somehow this is "fair".



its true that the definitions of fair are many. But to have a just society, one must setup things for the good of the many, not just the few its not about taking away incentives. heavily taxing someone that has 500million in the bank isn't going to "hurt" them very much. And ask yourself this. is the work of a business man that makes 100million a year working 2000 times harder then a policeman(say 50k a year) that risks his life regularly? how about those servicemen eh? teachers? are smart people that become teachers or policemen not gifted for not going for the moolah? we don't live in vacumns you know, its called a society for a reason


and what has happened throughout history when the gap between the rich and the poor gets too large? yes.. the poor just get pissed and take it back by force big mess.

 

[Linflas]

<< and what has happened throughout history when the gap between the rich and the poor gets too large? yes.. the poor just get pissed and take it back by force big mess. >>


Perhaps also look at what happens when economic policy and decisions are made by a magic group of individuals that somehow are endowed with the knowledge of exactly who should get what such as was tried under various communist regimes.

 

[Platinum]

Nothing so called about it. I refuse to accept your definition of fair in which it is perfectly ok to discriminate against individuals because they were born with the ability to obtain and amass wealth. That is really the bottom line in all these discussions. Redistributionists feel it is perfectly fine to take from those that produce and give it to
those that do not. You throw about words like progressive and regressive to cover what you do but the bottom line is that you take property and wealth from a group of citizens and give it to another group and claim that somehow this is "fair".

Did I say anywhere in my posts that we should distribute more to the poor at the expense of the rich?? Obviously you have not kept up with this thread. This thread started with people wanting to change the system by implementing their thinking of "fair". What I've been saying all along is this will NOT work. I repeat once again, a healthy society is one with a large middle class. Flat rate would eventually eliminate the middle class and we will have all the power and money at the hands of a few rich individual. This will eventually lead to "monopolies" which we have written laws to PREVENT.

 

[Nefrodite]

ugh ok.. who said anything about communists and totally equal distribution of wealth. do you even know how to read? grow a brain mr mcarthylinflas.



so you want to play the pure capitolism game eh? well down with the minimum wage then. down with child labor laws. down with the 40 hour work week. its only fair that the market work out absolutely everything. child porn? well if theres a market for it, why not. let the market decide. its only "fair"

 

[wyvrn]

<< Yes because I have researched the subject, which you obviously haven't.

Yeah, that's really good proof you got there. We should definitely believe his words that he's done his research >>



Well lets see. I am a fully licensed broker dealer (financial planner). I am completing my degree in finance as we speak (while concurrently completing an associates in network admin). I have read over 30 novels on the subject of money, I do save/invest over 20% of my gross pay, I have no CC debt, and I gone to more business conferences to see people like Lou Dobbs and Robert Kyosaki than I care to count. I KNOW people that are rich, at least 8 of them that I am good friends with, and NOT A SINGLE ONE inherited their money or won the lottery. Every one of them made it from rags to riches. Almost all of them were immigrants that came to the US with nothing but the shirt on their backs. I don't know a single American-born that is rich (though I know quite a few $100k + income earners, but I don't consider them wealthy), that is I believe because their are fewer of them (in the $250k + range anyway), and because I believe most Americans are stupid *about money*, which is why no matter how much they earn, most never have anything saved or invested. In fact I used to be this way until I married my wife, who is Asian, and her parents taught me a thing or two on real estate investing, saving money, etc. From there I earned my broker's license. I have read countless statistics by govt. agencies and private firms that do research on money, and while I cannot possibly hope to regurgitate all of it here for you, you must believe I know more about finances than the average American.

Now, what are you qualifications on the subject?

 

[Linflas]

<< ugh ok.. who said anything about communists and totally equal distribution of wealth. do you even know how to read? grow a brain mr linflas. aka mcarthy. >>


Yes I do know how to read and I even quoted the specific piece I was reading in my response to you. You throw out the "gap of rich vs poor" and I responded with the other extreme. I assume that "aka mcarthy" refers to the infamous Wisconsin Senator from the 1950's whom I share no views with at all. There is a difference between thinking that communism is wrong and taking action against people that do not agree with my view. Then again throwing out off topic insults is a tried and true method of deflecting points made in a debate.



<< so you want to play the pure capitolism game eh? well down with the minimum wage then. down with child labor laws. down with the 40 hour work week. its only fair that the market work out absolutely everything. child porn? well if theres a market for it, why not. let the market decide. >>


See the above. The original discussion was on tax policy, not unfettered capitalism. No where in any post of mine have I discussed what me beliefs are regarding any of the above. I am specifically addressing the current tax system and its goals. It's goals are the redistribution of wealth in my opinion.

 

[Linflas]

<< Did I say anywhere in my posts that we should distribute more to the poor at the expense of the rich?? >>


This is what the current system does whether you favor it or not.



<< Obviously you have not kept up with this thread. >>


Not obvious to me, have have actually read through all of it.



<< This thread started with people wanting to change the system by implementing their thinking of "fair". What I've been saying all along is this will NOT work. I repeat once again, a healthy society is one with a large middle class. >>


No disagreement with this. We had a large middle class prior to the 16th amendment and we have one today. We also have lots of movement both up and down which is why our economy over all is very strong. With out going in to a long winded explanation wealth is not a finite resource. It can be created and destroyed.



<< Flat rate would eventually eliminate the middle class and we will have all the power and money at the hands of a few rich individual. This will eventually lead to "monopolies" which we have written laws to PREVENT >>


This is where you go off into never never land IMHO. I do not see how a flat tax rate would destroy the middle class let alone how it would somehow create monopolies.

 

[Platinum]

I KNOW people that are rich, at least 8 of them that I am good friends with, and NOT A SINGLE ONE inherited their money or won the lottery. Every one of them made it from rags to riches.

Very interesting on how you claim at least 8 will automatically support your theory of more than 50%. What if I tell you all my life, I've met hundreds of people that are spoil and can buy supras with their daddy's money?

Now, what are you qualifications on the subject?

Yeah, am I'm Bill Gates. I mean, all your biography really means nothing to me. Just because you claim you're some sort of broker, you automatically knows about rich people's background?? Give me a break!

This is what the current system does whether you favor it or not.

What's your point? I don't like paying for computers but yet I have to. But since i'm paying, then it must be automatically assume that I support it.

Not obvious to me, have have actually read through all of it.

Either you're lying or you're a very bad conceptual reader.


This is where you go off into never never land IMHO. I do not see how a flat tax rate would destroy the middle class let alone how it would somehow create monopolies.

And this is where I can prove you didn't read the thread. I already stated how it would destroy the middle class. Go back and come back when you're ready.

 

[wyvrn]

BTW, I wanted to add that my wife and I are currently saving towards our first real estate investment. This will not be our home, because homes are, in the strictest sense, liabilities and not assets. They take more $$ than they give back. After our first RE investment, we will build our home on some land we already own. I had never thought of this until I took some classes in RE at my local Community college. I learned when the foreclosure sale was in the Dallas courthouse, and I went. The guy who bought the most properties was in a wheel chair. He was disabled for many years (I didn't ask him how yet, thought it was too personal at the time). Anyway, he is not qualified for many jobs because of his disability. But he is becoming very wealthy. How? He researches abandoned or foreclosed properties, and buys the ones with no liens. Well the one he bought while I watched, which was a nice house that markets for $120k, for $65k. He estimated 5-10k in repairs and sell at a discount for $110k, which is a nice $35k profit for a few hours of research work. I almost fell to the floor! This man had a disability that would crush most of us, but he learned to use his mind to find a creative way to make money. This is why I believe most poor and middle class have no excuse to bitch about taxes, salaries, and layoffs. Anyone can become wealthy if they want to!

 

[Linflas]

<< And this is where I can prove you didn't read the thread. I already stated how it would destroy the middle class. Go back and come back when you're ready. >>


No I did read your posts, I just don't buy into your conclusions. You posting an opinion does not make it a fact.

 

[wyvrn]

<< Now, what are you qualifications on the subject?

Yeah, am I'm Bill Gates. I mean, all your biography really means nothing to me. Just because you claim you're some sort of broker, you automatically knows about rich people's background?? Give me a break! >>




I don't claim to be a broker, I am one. I am licensed by state of TX and NASD (national assoc. of securities dealers). I am regulated by TX and the SEC. I have had numerous job offers (6 to be exact) from financial service companies, but turned them all down. I basically became a broker for my own knowledge, same reason I took many real estate classes from my local college.

I don't automatically know anything. I learned it through hard work and dedication. You still have not listed any qualifications to talk about money. If you don't have any, I will just assume you are ignorant. Anyone want to place bets on this one?




<< KNOW people that are rich, at least 8 of them that I am good friends with, and NOT A SINGLE ONE inherited their money or won the lottery. Every one of them made it from rags to riches.

Very interesting on how you claim at least 8 will automatically support your theory of more than 50%. What if I tell you all my life, I've met hundreds of people that are spoil and can buy supras with their daddy's money? >>



Actually, I have read statistics where the average millionaire started out as middle or poor class. Those that inherit their money usually lose it within their lifetime if their parents didn't educate them on how to keep it. You don't understand that people move in and out of social classes. For example, almost all* NFL player is broke 5 years after they retire from playing. So most of them went from poor or middle class to rich (average salary is above $1 million), and then back to middle or poor again. They made money, but didn't know how to keep it. The fact you don't know this makes me think you are very ignorant on the subject.

*edit for correctness

 

[Linflas]

<< What if I tell you all my life, I've met hundreds of people that are spoil and can buy supras with their daddy's money? >>


This statement is all you need to see to understand how politicians manipulate envy to keep getting elected. The class warfare game is good only for politicians and activists.

 

[PrinceofWands]

<< Anyone can become wealthy if they want to! >>




Really? I have terrible credit thanks to a divorce that ended in massive asset repossession. I have no money, no home, nothing worth anything. My job earns 23k a year. You think I can get a home loan??? I've taken various real estate courses. After working privately with one of the investors the summary was: get into a better position, or get lucky enough to find the dream deal that takes no money, no credit, etc. The area I live in is extremely repressed right now and has many such real estate investors, nearly all of whom are in a better situation than I am. So how exactly does this, 'everybody can be wealthy' thing work again?

BS. It's timing, luck, etc...not to mention having to be willing to set aside morals to make a buck. Overcharging for properties, substandard repairs and materials, etc. I'm sorry, but I've seen all the 'get rich quick' routes, and most are questionable at best.

 

[skace]

Great input PrinceofWands, adding a bit of realism into a thread full of dreamers.

 

[badluck]

<< Really? I have terrible credit thanks to a divorce that ended in massive asset repossession. I have no money, no home, nothing worth anything. My job earns 23k a year. You think I can get a home loan??? I've taken various real estate courses. After working privately with one of the investors the summary was: get into a better position, or get lucky enough to find the dream deal that takes no money, no credit, etc. The area I live in is extremely repressed right now and has many such real estate investors, nearly all of whom are in a better situation than I am. So how exactly does this, 'everybody can be wealthy' thing work again?

BS. It's timing, luck, etc...not to mention having to be willing to set aside morals to make a buck. Overcharging for properties, substandard repairs and materials, etc. I'm sorry, but I've seen all the 'get rich quick' routes, and most are questionable at best.
>>




You aren't rich because you made bad decisions. Anybody can get wealthy if they make better decisions than you did. Actually, you could still become rich if you wanted to. Start by going to college. You just don't want it bad enough.......

 

[Platinum]

No I did read your posts, I just don't buy into your conclusions. You posting an opinion does not make it a fact.

My opinions?? In economics, its call common sense. In order to give money to A, that money has to come from somewhere. Money just doesn't come out of your @ss. Since poor people barely pay income tax, its gonna be from the middle class. Which part of that did you not understand??

I don't automatically know anything. I learned it through hard work and dedication. You still have not listed any qualifications to talk about money. If you don't have any, I will just assume you are ignorant. Anyone want to place bets on this one?

You know, all that bs qualifications that you were quoting (i just skip through it), doesn't do crap to support that you have knowledge on the background of rich people. Unless you physically go to every house and ask every rich person, there's NO WAY you could back that statement, so just give up while you still can. <sarcasm>Yeah, I'm a car dealer so my words are god. I have 30 years of exp and if I say all cars are made in the US, then don't believe it when others tell you their car is made in Japan. </sarcasm>

Actually, I have read statistics where the average millionaire started out as middle or poor class. Those that inherit their money usually lose it within their lifetime if their parents didn't educate them on how to keep it. You don't understand that people move in and out of social classes. For example, almost all* NFL player is broke 5 years after they retire from playing. So most of them went from poor or middle class to rich (average salary is above $1 million), and then back to middle or poor again. They made money, but didn't know how to keep it. The fact you don't know this makes me think you are very ignorant on the subject.

Yeah, but what about corporations that are pass down by inheritance. Look how many people have gone to private colleges and then become the CEO once their parents retire. And what makes you think I don't know that NFL players make money on their own behalf?? That's how they got to NFL in the first place!! It really sounds pathetic to hear someone say so much bs on subjects they are ignorant in the first place. If you have statistics, bring it out.. otherwise all your comments are useless.

 

[Platinum]

You aren't rich because you made bad decisions. Anybody can get wealthy if they make better decisions than you did. Actually, you could still become rich if you wanted to. Start by going to college. You just don't want it bad enough.......

I gotta disagree with you on this one. Some people are born without a chance to succeed. Take afgan for example, with the mess they have over there...they don't have a choice. Not everyone's fortunate enough to go to college. Some 10 year old have to skip school and go out and work to support their younger brothers and sisters. Did they NOT work hard enough? No, they were just unlucky and born that way.

 

[Linflas]

<< My opinions?? In economics, its call common sense. In order to give money to A, that money has to come from somewhere. Money just doesn't come out of your @ss. Since poor people barely pay income tax, its gonna be from the middle class. Which part of that did you not understand?? >>


Have you actually studied economics? Are you quoting me Keynes theory above? Perhaps Greenspan or Hayek? I remember supply and demand curves from economics, oligarchy and monopolies but sadly I was never taught the "common sense" theory as you describe it above. And you are correct money does not come out of my @ss, in my particular case it is given to me in exchange for labor and services provided by me to my employer. Lets stay with that for a minute. Under your common sense above if I do a great job for my employer and they decide to reward me (A) with a raise it must come from somewhere right? Perhaps that somewhere might be from the increased revenue the company realized because of my good work? You insist on trying to look and money and wealth as a finite resource like energy which we all know cannot be created nor destroyed. On the other hand I view it as an infinite resource which can be created and destroyed by the actions of individuals, businesses, investors, and government. At this point rather than respond further I will just assume we disagree and leave it at that.

 

[badluck]

I'll give you that....I should say, anybody, who is born in the U.S. have a great chance of getting rich if they are ambitious enough.