Poll for THUNDERBIRD Vs P3

[han888]

Since when did VIA make boards for AMD? They make chipsets... they don't make mobo's for AMD

yup, i mean the chipset for the mobo!

 

[Sharkmeat]

Brotherman:look at the links that Lxi put up and look at the benchmark score,s and see the 2 fps diff of the GF2 ver,s the urtra,it might not be but one test but it is one to many that close for $450 bucks seems like sux time to me.Brotherman PcGamer does and honest test.They tell you to skip AMD and Nividia untill they get there crap working stable together LOL.

 

[cgtran]

I don't think I'll be getting my system together until the end of this month, or early next month cause I want to see if any of the price will drop.
From sharkyextreme, in 2 weeks, some of the prices for amd and intel will drop about 10-20% because something about the p4 coming out.
And also the MSI pro2 or something like that is coming out too.
Can't wait.
And still my decision is still undecided.

 

[LXi]

Sharkmeat:

<<look at the links that Lxi put up and look at the benchmark score,s and see the 2 fps diff of the GF2 ver,s the urtra,it might not be but one test but it is one to many that close for $450 bucks seems like sux time to me.>>

I show you why you're wrong, read your own statement again:

<<Nvidia,s new utra card in high detail is not that much faster if at all than the GF2>>

These are taken from those links I showed you:

FiringSquad
Quake 3 high detail

640
Ultra - 111.4
GTS - 107.8
Difference - 4.6

800
Ultra - 110.1
GTS - 101.1
Difference - 9

1024
Ultra - 102.2
GTS - 76.7
Difference - 25.5

1280
Ultra - 76.1
GTS - 41.9
Difference - 34.2

1600
Ultra - 53.1
GTS - 26.7
Difference - 26.4


Anandtech
Quake3 32bit(classify as high detail?)

640
Ultra - 119.4
GTS - 119.8
Difference - -0.4

1024
Ultra - 108.1
GTS - 93.6
Difference - 14.5

1280
Ultra - 81.8
GTS - 56.7
Difference - 25.1

1600
Ultra - 57.2
GTS - 38.4
Difference - 18.8

Where is that 2 fps difference you were talking about? Was it the Quake 3 Fastest 640x480 one? Oh lord. Look at those benches before you start bullcrapping please.



<<Brotherman PcGamer does and honest test.They tell you to skip AMD and Nividia untill they get there crap working stable together LOL.>>

Of course they're honest, hell... PC Gamer tells you to smoke crack, are you gonna listen? LOL, sure you are. Any print magazine today=Intel bias.

 

[Dexion]

I think more people have a &quot;bond&quot; with Pee3s. Just just can't let go of the fact that the current Tbird is a better performer, a better priced CPU, and the fastest clocked CPU (1.2mhz) on the market right now. With 1Ghz computer under $300, what more do you want? Tbird motherboards are being manufactured from the best; Asus, MSI, Abit etc, and they are known to have very stable motherboards. People saying that the AMD/VIA chipsets aren't as stable is complete BS, VIA has taken most of the newer P3 market with their VIA133 chipset found in most overclockable boards such as CUV4X and P3V4X made by ASUS. I don't see anyone complaining about VIA's incompatibility on those P3 platforms!

<< look at the links that Lxi put up and look at the benchmark score,s and see the 2 fps diff of the GF2 ver,s the urtra,it might not be but one test but it is one to many that close for $450 bucks seems like sux time to me.Brotherman PcGamer does and honest test.They tell you to skip AMD and Nividia untill they get there crap working stable together LOL. >>

I think he should really look more closely at each profile here in Anandtech, I don't see the 900-1000mhz Duron guys with Geforce2s complain about instability. Sharkmeat, if your still believing what PCGamer is saying about hardware, think again. They are a gaming mag, what do they know except to kiss Intel a$s for ads?

 

[LXi]

<<Brotherman, if your still believing what PCGamer is saying about hardware, think again. They are a gaming mag, what do they know except to kiss Intel a$s for ads on their mag?>>

Direct that to Sharkmeat. BrotherMan is well aware of this.

 

[Shagga]

Firstly, I would say I'm not trying to slur anyone here, unlike some of you who seem to think I'm on crack, I take offence from that and if I were in the states i'd probably sue the hind legs off ya, but I won't. Mainly because those that lead to slander and abuse have already lost the discussion. Nuff said on that.

Lxi -

<< I dont ignore those posts, but there are just as much issues/instability regarding Intel. >>



One munute you say there are no issues with AMD stability, the next you say there is as many as Intel. Which is it to be? I'm not going to trek through the forum database just so I can prove you wrong because that's not what I'm trying to do, but you know as well as I do, in the beginning, maybe not so much now there were loads of posts regarding this. If you choose to ignore it, then there you go.



<< AMD systems are just as stable and as safe as a bet as Intel systems. Im not afraid to build an AMD system for anyone. It's such a waste not to take advantage of their low prices, $400 diference for the 1GHz? Intel CPUs are a rip off. >>



I never mentioned price. Price was never issue. Check the original question by cgtran. But seems you mention it I'll ask you a question. Yes the P3 is far more expensive in some clock for clock comparisons, but have you asked why AMD's CPU's are so cheap.

1) They need to be to compete with Intels overwhelming market share! (fair thing to say, probably most likely explanation to)

or

2) AMD have in fact de-valued their product by dropping prices to such an extent. The average person off the street, knows of Intel and not AMD. If they were offered a system with either AMD of Intel, my bet is that they would go with a company that has been around for quite a while and has proved itself. Intel. AMD have yet to be about for so long and have yet to SUSTAIN the excellent work they are doing. Time will only tell.

Have you had that Bud yet?

Factor5 - Yes Intel had a problem with the 1.13GHz CPU that's why they recalled it. However AMD just left the Athlon on sale with mobo/GeForce incompatibilities and released another chipset, to which end you were patching everything or having to buy another mobo.

Kami's right. There is less effort when buying an Intel system. You don't have to worry about if you've got the right RAM or PSU.

Lxi -

<< So you rather spend $400 more for the Intel 1GHz than spending ~$50-100 for better PSU and RAM? Oh yea, just a note, Intel systems will also run like crap with crappy RAM. >>



So will any system. Your arguement is flawed.

Dan -

<< Right now T-Bird is the way to go. I'm not sure what &quot;stability issues&quot; Shagga is referring to. (I'm also not sure he is either.) >>



There were issues that stopped me buying AMD when I bought my current system. Me, just like cgtran came to these forums to get advice. At that time all I heard was problems with AMD CPU's insofar as mobo's/Ram/PSU's/GeForce etc etc. I am sure, that's why I never bought AMD.

Billyjak -

<< Shagga your nuts, Tunderbirds are not garbage. >>



I did say they suck, with a toungue in cheek frame of mind. They are excellent. If you read my posts, I do mention that maybe in the future when I have more confidence in what I'm seeing on the forums, I will change who knows.



<< And yea I just built my motherinlaw a Pentium 3 setup and have had more problems with it thatn I care to look at, thinking it would be a more stable setup. was I wrong, should have gone AMD, next time definateley. >>



You obviously don't know what you doing then. If you've advised your motherinlaw and she never bought the components which I suspect she didn't then your at fault for not doing the research. Mind you it is your motherinlaw Why did you not advise her to go AMD then?
Just a question, don't get all uptight about it. Just pulling ya chain.
I, as someone mentioned have never built an AMD system except back in the K6-2 days, but have only built Intel. Never had any issues that would cause too much concern, ever.

Lxi -

<< Because they keep thinking AMD systems are unstable, troublesome and lots of issues blah blah... you know I use to be like that, but it's simply wrong. Nowadays I still see people using such argument as &quot;P3s are more overclockable&quot;, the fact is they dont realize the Tbirds are also very capable overclockers. Let's say that they're equally fast(Im just being courtious because Tbird are FASTER), but the Tbird has such an advantage in the price, there is simply no reason to go with Intel if you're building a new computer. >>



Thats a good and fair point. There is no reason if you spend weeks online and on these forums looking at recommendations from like minded ppl.If your not in the know, then ppl will buy Intel. And I happen to think that is the right option.



<< As far as GeForce2s not running AGP4X on VIA boards, it's not their fault, it's nVidia's. >>



My GeForce runs 4x on my chipset which is on an Intel based mobo!. It's never been an issue.

SSP -

<< cgtran, People have their own openion. We gave you ours, now it's your job to figure out what you need to buy. >>



Bang on correct.

All said and done cgtran, there is some good opinions here. If ya stuck with money the AMD option might be better for you. If ya got loads of it knocking about then consider the Intel. If you are a techy, then go with what everyone seems to think you should go with. AMD. Just come back and tell us what experiences you've had with it.

To everyone else. Be cool, I'm not your enemy, no need to flame uncontrollably.



What I would say however, most would agree I hope. Don't be tight when buying the Mobo. I have only ever bought ASUS mobo's and IMO, they are the best.

This post was too long!

 

[jpprod]

<< As far as GeForce2s not running AGP4X on VIA boards, it's not their fault, it's nVidia's. >>

My GeForce runs 4x on my chipset which is on an Intel based mobo!. It's never been an issue.

Misconceptions after another... VIA Apollo Pro 133A, KX133 and KT133 run GeForces, GeForce2 GTSs , GF2MXs and the likes w/ AGP4X, sidebanding and Fast Writes without any problems as long as Detonator3 drivers aren't being used. Thus it is indeed Nvidia, not VIA to blame here.

 

[Davegod75]

thunderbird

 

[Noriaki]

Call the P3 and the TBird equal at the same clockspeed.

IMHO it's not true, the P3 only takes the TBird at Q3 because Q3 has SSE optimizations, and anyways gaming performance will be much more affected by your Video card than whether you have a P3 or a TBird.

Both are great chips, I'd go with what's cheaper.

I'd get a TBird and an Asus A7V or MSi K7TPro

The Radeon AIW is a good card, the non-AIW is a bit faster, but the AIW is pretty zippy to.

And BTW, both me and my roommate have Athlons and Asus K7Ms which both worked fine with our Generic RAM and a Generic 250Watt PSUs we had on our K6-2/3 systems. (I have good RAM now only because I wanted 2-2-2 timings, not 64MB with 3-3-3)

FiringSquad's AIW Radeon

Anand's own AIW Radeon

 

[Varborta]

PIII is max out at its capability on mhz flexibility Thunderbird is here today and also the future with DDR enhancement.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

if you buy a p3 you wil be stuck with no uprade path(the .13 micron p3 wont be compatible with today's chipset) if you get a t-bird you wil be able to uprade to mustang or pendomino or to a faster t-bird later down the road

 

[SSP]

cgtran, If you don't want to take our word for it, then take Anand's.

Once again, the Pentium III vs Athlon race is very close, performance is nearly identical, the deciding factor here should be price.

link

Content Creation Winstone 2000 paints us the same picture we've seen all along. The 1.13GHz Pentium III is barely faster than the 1.1GHz Thunderbird and depending on the platform, it could end up being slightly slower, the main thing to keep in mind is that the performance of the two solutions is so close that you need to turn to comparisons based on other factors to make your decision. The other factors to take into consideration are availability, price, and cost of the motherboards. In two of those categories, availability and price, AMD has most definitely had the advantage in recent history.

link

 

[Stealth1024]

Good point SSP

 

[Modus]

I was saving this for a rainy day, but Shagga, han888 and others have forced me to &quot;ramp up production.&quot; Unlike Intel, I hope to be able to the leave the post &quot;on market&quot; without a recall

-----

As usual, there is no sane reason to use an Intel processor in a new PC. Why?

1) Performance.

According to AnandTech's review of the 1.1 GHz Athlon, the performance advantage of a P3 running on the i815 chipset over a Thunderbird on the KT133 chipset is 5% in Quake3 Arena, 2% in Sysmark 2000, 1% in UnrealTournament, -1% in CC Winstone 2000, -1% in High End Winstone 99, and -2% in Expendable. These differences are so minute that they almost fall within the accepted margin of error for such benchmark tests. What happens when we switch to professional apps dependent on a strong integer core and FPU? The balance shifts heavily in favor of the Thunderbird: a relatively huge 15% average performance advantage under SpecViewPerf and a 9% advantage under RC5 distributed computing.

Clearly, the performance crown cannot be given to either CPU. Still, it is worth noting that where the P3 is stronger, it is only slightly stronger, but where the Thunderbird is stronger, it is much stronger.

What happens when the scene shifts to value-oriented chips? Not much. The same review shows that the AMD Duron, being about 10% slower than an Athlon or P3, completely trounces its AWOL competition, the Celeron, and even gives more expensive products a serious run for their money.

2) Price

AMD's value superiority is well documented, but here is the latest data from PriceWatch:

Speed | P3$ | Athlon$
-------------------------
1 GHz | 665 | 269
850 | 259 | 148
800 | 214 | 130
750 | 190 | 115
700 | 174 | 102
-------------------------
Speed | Celeron$ | Duron$
-------------------------
800 | n/a | 106
700 | 127 | 63
600 | 73 | 44

As you can see, Intel processors are anywhere from 70% to 140% more expensive. This is simply unheard of in any competitive market where two products are so similar in every respect. Granted, AMD has recently slashed prices, but even before the cut, Intel processors were exhorbitantly priced.

&quot;But I already have an Intel motherboard. If I buy an AMD chip, I'll need a whole new board, maybe a new power supply, and come to think of it a new floppy drive would be nice and so would a new dog!&quot; We're talking about new systems here. Obviously, an upgrade will usually force you to continue using the same brand of CPU. (Then again, if you wanted to upgrade to a 1 GHz chip, AMD would still be cheaper regardless of your current setup.)

Some might say that the cost of motherboards outwieghs the cost of the CPU's, but this too is a missconception: Pricewatch lists the ASUS CUSL2 at $136, while the A7V sells for only $130. The price difference for other brands might vary, but nowhere near enough to make up for the hilariously inept price gouging Intel is now forcing on a largely ignorant consumer market.

And some might say the lack of a Socket A integrated video chipset gives the Celeron an advantage in the SOHO setting. Actually, this is another misconecption. As I pointed out in this thread, one can easily combine a Duron on a SocketA board with a cheap 4M AGP card to achieve the same price -- and far superior performance -- to any integrated Celeron system.

Does Intel really expect people not to figure this out? Apparently.

3) Reliability.

All it takes is a couple negative anecdotes to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) about a particular product, especially when large amounts of money are involved. However, the danger of putting stock into anecdotal evidence is that it is so easily skewed by individual perception and bias.

For all the arguments and debates between AMD and Intel supporters, there has not been one single controlled study on the stability or reliability of either platform, ever. This says a lot. It says that no qualified authority has ever seriously believed that there is a measurable difference between Intel and AMD platforms in terms of stability and reliability. So, in the absence of any proper evidence, we can only give both the benefit of the doubt and declare them equal.

Some Intel supporters suffer under the mistaken impression that, since Intel pioneered the x86 standard, they will somehow always be better equipped as the &quot;technology leader.&quot; In reality, modern CPU's are so internally diverse that their only real relation to x86 is the machine language itself. AMD chips are no longer &quot;clones&quot; but entirely new designs that have enabled them to push chips as high as 1.2 GHz while Intel strugles to break 1 GHz. This also says a lot about AMD's current fabrication process: seemingly, they can release faster chips at will.

Intel's foulups (the Pentium FDIV bug and recall, the P3 serial number fiasco, the massive i820/MTH recall, the hilarious Rambus contract that cripples their ability to cater to deliver cheaper, faster RAM solutions, the recent 1.13 GHz P3 instability and recall) all point to a company that either lost its focus on quality, or deliberately eased up to make the FTC believe AMD was making large inroads into an essentially monopolized market.

In platform support, older KX133 and AMD750 boards were quite stable, with only a few incompatibility problems with certain nVidia AGP cards, all of which were quickly fixed by means of BIOS and driver updates. Currently, the one (1) single compatibility problem with AMD chips is a Windows 2000 AGP issue that is easily fixed without any software at all, just a simple, downloadable registry setting that takes all of two seconds and patches an OS that was never intended for 3D entertainment in the first place. (The nVidia Detonator3/KT133 problem doesn't count because A- it's nVidia's fault and B- there's an easy workaround. Then again, the W2K bug is Microsoft's fault, too.)

As far as processor cooling and power consumption, both AMD and Intel have strict guidelines that must be followed. Power supplies approved by AMD are cheap and easy to find, as are heatsink/fan units. They add very little to the cost of a system, and in the case of PSU's, are almost a necessity for today's demanding hardware configurations.

And nothing is a better testament to the stability and reliability of the Athlon platform than the fact that Anand himself uses one to run these very forums where we debate the issue.

Modus

 

[cgtran]

Good point, so I guess my mind has been made up so far, and Thunderbird it is. Going for 1ghz too, but I where do you get it under $300 retail?

Again I can still change my mind at the end, cause I won't be getting it until the end of this month.

This is what I been thinking of getting with it, the ati aiw Radeon, SBlive 5.1.
That will work fine with the Thunderbird right?

 

[LXi]

Oh god Modus is finally here. I just wish you were here ealier so things could settle.

 

[noxipoo]

you can check on pricewatch for prices or just goto tcwo.com for cheap tbirds.

this whole discussion sounds like when nvidia was first starting to kick 3dfx's ass and 3dfx owners were desperately trying to make their cards sounds better.

 

[Sharkmeat]

When all the perks run out for AMD expect the chip price to go up,AMD has a benefit package with germany from what I read that will let them cut the retail market price on chips due to lower overhead.Now tell your self can you give 1/3 of your weekly wages to the the red cross and still pay the rent??.It cost alot to make chip waffer,s and you will see why befor long.I say keep and eye on the stock market when the AMD contract runs out with germany.AMD is also building a new fab in Gov-Bush (Which I perdict to be the next President) State of texas,but wounder what perks they gave AMD to build their LOL?.I guess it would be public infomation.Now guys don't get me wrong I like AMD they keep my Intel chip prices down a bit,being I get the first chips that intel ships they cost me a fortune but ever little bit helps.

 

[SamWoo]

If you want to run AGP 4X with the Nvidia and KT133 setup, you need to enter something in your registery. You can find the info at www.tweak3d.net, they will walk it through with you. It works under the detenator 3 drivers.

I really don't understand why some people continue to say you need special parts for your AMD system. That's bull..get decent RAM like Crucial or PNY (which isn't really expensive) and a good powersupply...things you should do anyways regardless of what CPU you're using. It's just that simple.

 

[pen^2]

oh, in case i forgot to mention: yeah, PC GAMER maybe is honest after all... the problem is then they are dumbfvcks!

 

[LXi]

Right on, BrotherMan.

 

[cgtran]

Next question
Since I'll eventurally o/c my thunderbird, 1.2 or higher with a 1ghz
does the Asus A7V or the MSI K7T pro support that high of a processor?

 

[LXi]

Indeed they will, look at this, it's probably what you should get for your motherboard.

 

[pen^2]

Uh oh. maybe not.