Poll: Do you trust the Bush Administration?

[Moonbeam]

We get the leaders we deserve, so obviously we've gotten alot worce lately.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Why should a database like this even be considered? Do you honestly believe that a database of all American consumer purchases will do a fcking thing to prevent terrorism?

I see there was a full recall on tin-foil hats today.

If you could detect that someone or a group of known associates had purchased say 1000 lbs of fertilizer, 100 gallons of nitromethane and rented a Rider truck do you think that maybe, just maybe, that knowing that might prevent a terrorist attack?

There is absolutely no question that a system of this sort could help prevent a terrorist attack. The amount of data however will be overwhelming. We probably had the data we needed to stop the attacks on 9/11. The problem was that it was buried under a mountain of other data spread over a 100 places and we weren't equipped to extract it. Yet some of you are convinced that the goverment is going to have the time, money and give a sh!t about what groceries you bought or what size dildo you ordered. Don't flatter yourselves. The sheer size of the thing, if it ever comes to fruition, will force 99.999999999999% of the data to be immediately discarded with a concentration on dual use items like those I mentioned above. Your privacy concerns are valid but hardly justify the shrill cry of the tin-foil hat crowd.

 

[JellyBaby]

How can you trust anyone who, when all is said and done, steals half of what you earn?

 

[classy]

I trust Bush and his cronies about as much as I trust Bin Laden. In short, NO, I dont trust them.

 

[JoeBaD]

classy

I trust Bush and his cronies about as much as I trust Bin Laden. In short, NO, I dont trust them.

Hey classy -

you remain an arsehole.

What a thing to say, moron.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I thought Texmaster was banned??

 

[HomeBrewerDude]

How can anyone trust any administration after the last 50 years of scandal, deceit, and immorality?

 

[BatmanNate]

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: datalink7
Not really.

I mean, I don't think he is going to do something that he thinks is wrong, or lie about it to the public (at least overly). I just don't think he has the intellectual capacity to be a good president. Sorry, that is just my opinion.

But it is a nice change to have a dumb honest president over a smart lying president (aka Clinton). Though dumb brings its own complications.

It is Ashcroft who scares the living hell out of me though.

Despite what assertions we might make regarding the president's intellect based on his speaking prowess, we can not discount that if not himself at least his administration is dangerous. You say that he doesn't have the capacity to do something overtly wrong and lie about it to the public, however the man that he appointed to the director of this database project has been INDICTED for doing something illegal behind congress's back and then LYING about it in court. Bush appointed this man, after all.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Why should a database like this even be considered? Do you honestly believe that a database of all American consumer purchases will do a fcking thing to prevent terrorism?

I see there was a full recall on tin-foil hats today.

If you could detect that someone or a group of known associates had purchased say 1000 lbs of fertilizer, 100 gallons of nitromethane and rented a Rider truck do you think that maybe, just maybe, that knowing that might prevent a terrorist attack?

There is absolutely no question that a system of this sort could help prevent a terrorist attack. The amount of data however will be overwhelming. We probably had the data we needed to stop the attacks on 9/11. The problem was that it was buried under a mountain of other data spread over a 100 places and we weren't equipped to extract it. Yet some of you are convinced that the goverment is going to have the time, money and give a sh!t about what groceries you bought or what size dildo you ordered. Don't flatter yourselves. The sheer size of the thing, if it ever comes to fruition, will force 99.999999999999% of the data to be immediately discarded with a concentration on dual use items like those I mentioned above. Your privacy concerns are valid but hardly justify the shrill cry of the tin-foil hat crowd.

Potential terrorists will certainly not be so dumb as to waste months of planning by waltzing into the store and buying 1000lbs of fertilizer on their Visa Gold. Obviously this system does not account for cash purchases, and it's easy enough with several terrorist candidates working together to utilize a few select illegitamate merchants and slip entirely through the cracks of this system. Any substanstial planning that gets put into a terrorist act will undoubtedly account for these details and the only ones that end up being thwarted by the system will be innocent people making legitimate purchases. Beyond that, the government may choose to use the system as an excuse to detain it's political enemies by generating computer statistics that indicate a potential terroristic algorythim in buying/traveling/communicating habits of the person in question. Make tin foil jest all that you want, but this is clearly an unwarranted invasion of privacy that lends itself simply to malicious uses.

 

[reitz]

DaveSohmer,

Do our current gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

 

[BatmanNate]

Not to mention the irony inherent in the fact that the director of the IAO (which in and of itself is a terrorist prevention tool, or so we should think) himself went behind the back of congress and [supposedly] president Reagan to sell missiles to a hostile nation that was holding American captives, only to use the profit to fund terrorists in central America to overthrow the left wing government. Sounds like the kind of guy for the job, huh?

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: reitz
DaveSohmer,

Do our current gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

Strawman. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. DUI laws don't stop drunk driving. Murder laws don't stop murders blah, blah, blah. Try again.

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Why should a database like this even be considered? Do you honestly believe that a database of all American consumer purchases will do a fcking thing to prevent terrorism?

I see there was a full recall on tin-foil hats today.

If you could detect that someone or a group of known associates had purchased say 1000 lbs of fertilizer, 100 gallons of nitromethane and rented a Rider truck do you think that maybe, just maybe, that knowing that might prevent a terrorist attack?

There is absolutely no question that a system of this sort could help prevent a terrorist attack. The amount of data however will be overwhelming. We probably had the data we needed to stop the attacks on 9/11. The problem was that it was buried under a mountain of other data spread over a 100 places and we weren't equipped to extract it. Yet some of you are convinced that the goverment is going to have the time, money and give a sh!t about what groceries you bought or what size dildo you ordered. Don't flatter yourselves. The sheer size of the thing, if it ever comes to fruition, will force 99.999999999999% of the data to be immediately discarded with a concentration on dual use items like those I mentioned above. Your privacy concerns are valid but hardly justify the shrill cry of the tin-foil hat crowd.

Potential terrorists will certainly not be so dumb as to waste months of planning by waltzing into the store and buying 1000lbs of fertilizer on their Visa Gold. Obviously this system does not account for cash purchases, and it's easy enough with several terrorist candidates working together to utilize a few select illegitamate merchants and slip entirely through the cracks of this system. Any substanstial planning that gets put into a terrorist act will undoubtedly account for these details and the only ones that end up being thwarted by the system will be innocent people making legitimate purchases. Beyond that, the government may choose to use the system as an excuse to detain it's political enemies by generating computer statistics that indicate a potential terroristic algorythim in buying/traveling/communicating habits of the person in question. Make tin foil jest all that you want, but this is clearly an unwarranted invasion of privacy that lends itself simply to malicious uses.

The information is already out there. Why aren't they using it now for all these malicious purposes?

 

[outriding]

Originally posted by: reitz
DaveSohmer,

Do our current gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

that right there pisses me off.

i saw on tv the other day when rumsfeild or ashcroft ( or one of them ) had an al queda terrorist handbook.

and he talks on some of the ways on how terrorists are being trained. what he fails to mention in the book on how terrorists can buy guns in the US just over the counter

without a waiting period or really no identifcation needed. along with that the NRA is prohibting the gun owner database to be used in helping to identify potental terorists

but wire taps, emails, and etc are alright. i think the gun control laws need to be thoughly overhauled without the NRA's intervention.

 

[omega2]

It's a amazing how Bush is still able to maintain a good rating (over 50%).

 

[reitz]

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Originally posted by: reitz
DaveSohmer,

Do our current gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

Strawman. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. DUI laws don't stop drunk driving. Murder laws don't stop murders blah, blah, blah. Try again.

It is not a strawman, it is the perfect analogy.

Gun control laws don't do a god damned thing to stop violent crime in this country. Background checks don't stop criminals from purchasing weapons. Even a nationwide database of all gun transactions will not make a dent in gun violence. Not a single Republikan would disagree with that.

How then would you expect a nationwide database of all consumer purchases to stop or prevent terrorism? We've tried adding more restrictions and more oversight to gun purchases, with no results. Is it reasonable to expect that the criminals and terrorists are going to continue to make terrorism-related purchases, knowing that every purchase is being tracked? Wouldn't it make more sense that they'll instead turn to the black market to aquire what they need?

A database like the one proposed will work in the exact same way as gun control: it'll make the liberals feel a little more secure, trample the rights of ordinary citizens, and increase the power of those in charge; while not doing a fscking thing to prevent terrorism (other than perhaps making it slightly less convenient).

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Why should a database like this even be considered? Do you honestly believe that a database of all American consumer purchases will do a fcking thing to prevent terrorism?

I see there was a full recall on tin-foil hats today.

If you could detect that someone or a group of known associates had purchased say 1000 lbs of fertilizer, 100 gallons of nitromethane and rented a Rider truck do you think that maybe, just maybe, that knowing that might prevent a terrorist attack?

There is absolutely no question that a system of this sort could help prevent a terrorist attack. The amount of data however will be overwhelming. We probably had the data we needed to stop the attacks on 9/11. The problem was that it was buried under a mountain of other data spread over a 100 places and we weren't equipped to extract it. Yet some of you are convinced that the goverment is going to have the time, money and give a sh!t about what groceries you bought or what size dildo you ordered. Don't flatter yourselves. The sheer size of the thing, if it ever comes to fruition, will force 99.999999999999% of the data to be immediately discarded with a concentration on dual use items like those I mentioned above. Your privacy concerns are valid but hardly justify the shrill cry of the tin-foil hat crowd.

Potential terrorists will certainly not be so dumb as to waste months of planning by waltzing into the store and buying 1000lbs of fertilizer on their Visa Gold. Obviously this system does not account for cash purchases, and it's easy enough with several terrorist candidates working together to utilize a few select illegitamate merchants and slip entirely through the cracks of this system. Any substanstial planning that gets put into a terrorist act will undoubtedly account for these details and the only ones that end up being thwarted by the system will be innocent people making legitimate purchases. Beyond that, the government may choose to use the system as an excuse to detain it's political enemies by generating computer statistics that indicate a potential terroristic algorythim in buying/traveling/communicating habits of the person in question. Make tin foil jest all that you want, but this is clearly an unwarranted invasion of privacy that lends itself simply to malicious uses.

The information is already out there. Why aren't they using it now for all these malicious purposes?

Because up until this recent burst of "patriotism" there were well thought out laws in place protecting individuals' right to privacy. Also, they (to our knowledge) did not have the $200 million dollar funded project to create this system, in fact the IAO was created by DARPA only shortly after 9/11 and this project in particular was funded by the homeland security act. Before these events, it would have been a moot point to create such a comprehensive database system, since they could not before march up to my ISP and demand notification if I was to hold dialog with individuals who reside outside this country frequently. Peoples fear of terrorism is overriding their fear of invasive government that wields too much power, causing them to forfeit privacies that seem insignificant to them in the grand scheme.

 

[reitz]

outriding,

You might want to double-check that information. It's complete bullsh!t.


A nationwide database of gun ownership would be populated by legal gun sales, since it's impossible to track the illegal sales. How many terrorists legally purchase weapons? How would a nationwide database of legal gun purchases prevent someone from committing a crime or an act of terrorism with an illegally-purchased gun?

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: reitz
DaveSohmer,

Do our current gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

that right there pisses me off.

i saw on tv the other day when rumsfeild or ashcroft ( or one of them ) had an al queda terrorist handbook.

and he talks on some of the ways on how terrorists are being trained. what he fails to mention in the book on how terrorists can buy guns in the US just over the counter

without a waiting period or really no identifcation needed. along with that the NRA is prohibting the gun owner database to be used in helping to identify potental terorists

but wire taps, emails, and etc are alright. i think the gun control laws need to be thoughly overhauled without the NRA's intervention.

Dumbass. The terrorists on 9/11 didn't use a single gun.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Why should a database like this even be considered? Do you honestly believe that a database of all American consumer purchases will do a fcking thing to prevent terrorism?

I see there was a full recall on tin-foil hats today.

If you could detect that someone or a group of known associates had purchased say 1000 lbs of fertilizer, 100 gallons of nitromethane and rented a Rider truck do you think that maybe, just maybe, that knowing that might prevent a terrorist attack?

There is absolutely no question that a system of this sort could help prevent a terrorist attack. The amount of data however will be overwhelming. We probably had the data we needed to stop the attacks on 9/11. The problem was that it was buried under a mountain of other data spread over a 100 places and we weren't equipped to extract it. Yet some of you are convinced that the goverment is going to have the time, money and give a sh!t about what groceries you bought or what size dildo you ordered. Don't flatter yourselves. The sheer size of the thing, if it ever comes to fruition, will force 99.999999999999% of the data to be immediately discarded with a concentration on dual use items like those I mentioned above. Your privacy concerns are valid but hardly justify the shrill cry of the tin-foil hat crowd.

Potential terrorists will certainly not be so dumb as to waste months of planning by waltzing into the store and buying 1000lbs of fertilizer on their Visa Gold. Obviously this system does not account for cash purchases, and it's easy enough with several terrorist candidates working together to utilize a few select illegitamate merchants and slip entirely through the cracks of this system. Any substanstial planning that gets put into a terrorist act will undoubtedly account for these details and the only ones that end up being thwarted by the system will be innocent people making legitimate purchases. Beyond that, the government may choose to use the system as an excuse to detain it's political enemies by generating computer statistics that indicate a potential terroristic algorythim in buying/traveling/communicating habits of the person in question. Make tin foil jest all that you want, but this is clearly an unwarranted invasion of privacy that lends itself simply to malicious uses.

The information is already out there. Why aren't they using it now for all these malicious purposes?

Because up until this recent burst of "patriotism" there were well thought out laws in place protecting individuals' right to privacy. Also, they (to our knowledge) did not have the $200 million dollar funded project to create this system, in fact the IAO was created by DARPA only shortly after 9/11 and this project in particular was funded by the homeland security act. Before these events, it would have been a moot point to create such a comprehensive database system, since they could not before march up to my ISP and demand notification if I was to hold dialog with individuals who reside outside this country frequently. Peoples fear of terrorism is overriding their fear of invasive government that wields too much power, causing them to forfeit privacies that seem insignificant to them in the grand scheme.

If this had been done by the Clinton Administration some of the very same conservatives that now support it would have been screaming bloody murder.

Nice opinion piece by Wesley Pruden about this agency.

 

[BatmanNate]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Originally posted by: BatmanNate

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Why should a database like this even be considered? Do you honestly believe that a database of all American consumer purchases will do a fcking thing to prevent terrorism?

I see there was a full recall on tin-foil hats today.

If you could detect that someone or a group of known associates had purchased say 1000 lbs of fertilizer, 100 gallons of nitromethane and rented a Rider truck do you think that maybe, just maybe, that knowing that might prevent a terrorist attack?

There is absolutely no question that a system of this sort could help prevent a terrorist attack. The amount of data however will be overwhelming. We probably had the data we needed to stop the attacks on 9/11. The problem was that it was buried under a mountain of other data spread over a 100 places and we weren't equipped to extract it. Yet some of you are convinced that the goverment is going to have the time, money and give a sh!t about what groceries you bought or what size dildo you ordered. Don't flatter yourselves. The sheer size of the thing, if it ever comes to fruition, will force 99.999999999999% of the data to be immediately discarded with a concentration on dual use items like those I mentioned above. Your privacy concerns are valid but hardly justify the shrill cry of the tin-foil hat crowd.

Potential terrorists will certainly not be so dumb as to waste months of planning by waltzing into the store and buying 1000lbs of fertilizer on their Visa Gold. Obviously this system does not account for cash purchases, and it's easy enough with several terrorist candidates working together to utilize a few select illegitamate merchants and slip entirely through the cracks of this system. Any substanstial planning that gets put into a terrorist act will undoubtedly account for these details and the only ones that end up being thwarted by the system will be innocent people making legitimate purchases. Beyond that, the government may choose to use the system as an excuse to detain it's political enemies by generating computer statistics that indicate a potential terroristic algorythim in buying/traveling/communicating habits of the person in question. Make tin foil jest all that you want, but this is clearly an unwarranted invasion of privacy that lends itself simply to malicious uses.

The information is already out there. Why aren't they using it now for all these malicious purposes?

Because up until this recent burst of "patriotism" there were well thought out laws in place protecting individuals' right to privacy. Also, they (to our knowledge) did not have the $200 million dollar funded project to create this system, in fact the IAO was created by DARPA only shortly after 9/11 and this project in particular was funded by the homeland security act. Before these events, it would have been a moot point to create such a comprehensive database system, since they could not before march up to my ISP and demand notification if I was to hold dialog with individuals who reside outside this country frequently. Peoples fear of terrorism is overriding their fear of invasive government that wields too much power, causing them to forfeit privacies that seem insignificant to them in the grand scheme.

If this had been done by the Clinton Administration some of the very same conservatives that now support it would have been screaming bloody murder.

Nice opinion piece by Wesley Pruden about this agency.

I agree. GOP advocates would normally not be so eager to inflate the government like this, but as long as it's in the name of the 'war or terror' they would agree with just about anything under the sun. It's cowardice, plain and simple.

 

[JellyBaby]

GOP advocates would normally not be so eager to inflate the government like this

Sadly, they're always eager to grow government. They just pay lip service to the opposite during elections.

 

[outriding]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: outriding

Originally posted by: reitz
DaveSohmer,

Do our current gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

that right there pisses me off.

i saw on tv the other day when rumsfeild or ashcroft ( or one of them ) had an al queda terrorist handbook.

and he talks on some of the ways on how terrorists are being trained. what he fails to mention in the book on how terrorists can buy guns in the US just over the counter

without a waiting period or really no identifcation needed. along with that the NRA is prohibting the gun owner database to be used in helping to identify potental terorists

but wire taps, emails, and etc are alright. i think the gun control laws need to be thoughly overhauled without the NRA's intervention.

Dumbass. The terrorists on 9/11 didn't use a single gun.

so are you saying that terrorists never use guns ? just because one time they did not use a gun doesn't mean they dont buy them. dumbass

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: reitz

Originally posted by: DaveSohmer

Originally posted by: reitz
DaveSohmer,

Do our current gun control laws keep guns out of the hands of criminals?

Strawman. One has absolutely nothing to do with the other. DUI laws don't stop drunk driving. Murder laws don't stop murders blah, blah, blah. Try again.

It is not a strawman, it is the perfect analogy.

Gun control laws don't do a god damned thing to stop violent crime in this country. Background checks don't stop criminals from purchasing weapons. Even a nationwide database of all gun transactions will not make a dent in gun violence. Not a single Republikan would disagree with that.

How then would you expect a nationwide database of all consumer purchases to stop or prevent terrorism? We've tried adding more restrictions and more oversight to gun purchases, with no results. Is it reasonable to expect that the criminals and terrorists are going to continue to make terrorism-related purchases, knowing that every purchase is being tracked? Wouldn't it make more sense that they'll instead turn to the black market to aquire what they need?

A database like the one proposed will work in the exact same way as gun control: it'll make the liberals feel a little more secure, trample the rights of ordinary citizens, and increase the power of those in charge; while not doing a fscking thing to prevent terrorism (other than perhaps making it slightly less convenient).

It's not even close to being the perfect analogy. It's not even a half-assed analogy. The gun laws are designed to prevent people from making purchases. Since the laws aren't enforced and the system to do backgroung checks is flawed it is ineffective. The system we are talking about here would be designed to flag purchases like the ones I noted in my first post. Not prevent people from buying those items, simply raising a flag when an unusual transaction occurs for specific items. See the difference. Do you understand now why your gun control argument is a strawman. Good, glad I could help. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever that there shouldn't be a system that would flag the types and quantities of materials like the ones I mentioned earlier. Your concerns about privacy issues are valid but so far unfounded. Your assertion that this system is useless is ignorant and the comparison of it to gun laws is asinine.