Poll: Do the survivors and the families of the Tulsa Race Massacre deserve reparations?

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Should the survivors and their families be paid reparations from the state of Oklahoma?

  • Yes

    Votes: 44 69.8%
  • No

    Votes: 19 30.2%

  • Total voters
    63

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,046
27,781
136
In a country full of people struggling, our hearts are closed. There will be no righting of wrongs.
I view my answer for this is the same as for affirmative action.

Heal greater societal wounds, and then people will be free enough to look upon one another with empathy and not jealously or cruelty. Hearts would be opened and we may address these ills as we should.
What societal wound needs healing that is greater then what happened to the black people, their homes and businesses in Tulsa? Are you aware these people were firebombed via airplanes with the tacit or direct approval of the city.
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,494
8,085
136
I don't really understand Clarence Thomas's politics. I've read accounts of it but still couldn't make sense of it. I don't think it's anything like as simple as you imply.

I've seen his views described as "right-wing Afro pessimism". That is, a similar loss of belief in liberal anti-racism that influenced the Black Power movement, but with a right-wing spin on it, that seems (to me) to have a lot to do with his class background.

He started off, apparently, as a leftish sort of black-nationalist. And I've seen it claimed that he's _still_ a kind of black nationalist, just with a right-wing slant.

This seems to cover the same territory.


I don't pretend to understand where he's coming from, but it sounds a more complex position than just being an "Uncle Tom".
A lot of black Americans are remarkably conservative. One wouldn't expect this, but it's evidently true. Fortunately, they are not dominant. And obviously, the young do not tend to be conservative. ;)
 
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Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,494
8,085
136
In a country full of people struggling, our hearts are closed. There will be no righting of wrongs.
I view my answer for this is the same as for affirmative action.

Heal greater societal wounds, and then people will be free enough to look upon one another with empathy and not jealously or cruelty. Hearts would be opened and we may address these ills as we should.
I think reparations are a real possibility in California. The governor appears to be way for it (Newsom), and there's a lot of organizing and studying this going on. I think it will be presented to state legislature, maybe to the voters at large in a referendum.
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
2,720
1,280
136
I think reparations are a real possibility in California. The governor appears to be way for it (Newsom), and there's a lot of organizing and studying this going on. I think it will be presented to state legislature, maybe to the voters at large in a referendum.
IMO, it is a can of worms. Who is eligible? Any African American citizen? What about African Americans who only recently came to the US. Is it only those families whose ancestors can be shown to be directly harmed by incidents like Tulsa? What about African Americans who have been helped already by affirmative action and/or simply made it by themselves to a well off or wealthy position? What about people of mixed race, are they eligible? And most of all, what about Native Americans?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,046
27,781
136
IMO, it is a can of worms. Who is eligible? Any African American citizen? What about African Americans who only recently came to the US. Is it only those families whose ancestors can be shown to be directly harmed by incidents like Tulsa? What about African Americans who have been helped already by affirmative action and/or simply made it by themselves to a well off or wealthy position? What about people of mixed race, are they eligible? And most of all, what about Native Americans?
What about Asian Americans who were interned during WW2?

Oh that's right they were granted reparations.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
37,494
8,085
136
IMO, it is a can of worms. Who is eligible? Any African American citizen? What about African Americans who only recently came to the US. Is it only those families whose ancestors can be shown to be directly harmed by incidents like Tulsa? What about African Americans who have been helped already by affirmative action and/or simply made it by themselves to a well off or wealthy position? What about people of mixed race, are they eligible? And most of all, what about Native Americans?
Doubtless these questions are already under consideration by the agencies promoting reparations and recommendations are in the offing, worms, not so much.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,434
7,850
136
What about Asian Americans who were interned during WW2?

Oh that's right they were granted reparations.
A short article in this: https://theconversation.com/why-jap...nd-african-americans-are-still-waiting-119580

A salient point, IMHO, is found here, wrt to the likelihood of getting reparations -

  • The number of victims is relatively small.
  • The victims are easily identifiable.
  • Many of the direct victims are still alive.
  • The injustice took place during a relatively short time period.
  • The perpetrator is known.
  • The injustice is easily identifiable.
  • The injustice offends values of equality, personal safety and/or the right to own property.
  • There is a symbolic victim around whom advocates for reparations can rally.
  • The amount of reparations asked for is not so large that the public will find it unreasonable.

The African American reparations movement is more complex and much, much larger in scope than what faced the Japanese Americans after WW2. Unfortunately, the proposed reparations to African people after the Civil War weren’t put into practice.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,046
27,781
136
A short article in this: https://theconversation.com/why-jap...nd-african-americans-are-still-waiting-119580

A salient point, IMHO, is found here, wrt to the likelihood of getting reparations -



The African American reparations movement is more complex and much, much larger in scope than what faced the Japanese Americans after WW2. Unfortunately, the proposed reparations to African people after the Civil War weren’t put into practice.
The black people and families from Tulsa should have been an easy fix. And there are still 3 survivors.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,424
10,317
136
A short article in this: https://theconversation.com/why-jap...nd-african-americans-are-still-waiting-119580

A salient point, IMHO, is found here, wrt to the likelihood of getting reparations -



The African American reparations movement is more complex and much, much larger in scope than what faced the Japanese Americans after WW2. Unfortunately, the proposed reparations to African people after the Civil War weren’t put into practice.
I guess the back to Africa plan(Liberia) wasn't very successful.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,046
27,781
136
  • Tulsa vs Japanese

  • The number of victims is relatively small. (Yes compared to the total black population in the US)
  • The victims are easily identifiable. (we know who they are and their familes)
  • Many of the direct victims are still alive. (3 survivors)
  • The injustice took place during a relatively short time period. (blacks were killed and burned out in a matter of days)
  • The perpetrator is known. (City of Tulsa and white residents)
  • The injustice is easily identifiable. (yes)
  • The injustice offends values of equality, personal safety and/or the right to own property. (yes)
  • There is a symbolic victim around whom advocates for reparations can rally. (we have the victims question as to if white America would support)
  • The amount of reparations asked for is not so large that the public will find it unreasonable. (Not sure of the number but compared to the act amount is completely justifiable)
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,434
7,850
136
The black people and families from Tulsa should have been an easy fix. And there are still 3 survivors.
Sorry, I meant Black reparations in general. Tulsa should have been a much easier case to resolve. Clearly, there was Zero real impediments toward awarding the survivors benefits - a bit harder for descendants, but still doable. But, yeah, still a country will a dominant strain of outright racism or the tolerance of racism. I have no idea what the solution is, given this exists even in other, more egalitarian countries in Europe as well (just not as bad).
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,434
7,850
136
I guess the back to Africa plan(Liberia) wasn't very successful.
Well, providing former slaves with a small lot of farmable land to at least provide for their own families went up in a puff of smoke. Not exactly a good plan to leave southerners in charge of implementing this.
 
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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,813
9,020
136
Might be a good time to remind everybody that the actual slaveholders themselves were paid $300 for every freed slave back in 1862 (close to $9,000 per slave today)—so every time someone complains about paying reparations, just think about that. The British and French were even worse—wrecking entire Caribbean economies with slaveholder debt.
 
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ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
2,720
1,280
136
What about Asian Americans who were interned during WW2?

Oh that's right they were granted reparations.
The asian americans in WW2 and the Tulsa case are limited and it can be clearly defined who was affected. Some sort of compensation is a slam dunk for these cases. My post was more directed at reparations in general, As Ajay already stated, this is a much more complex issue.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,434
7,850
136
Might be a good time to remind everybody that the actual slaveholders themselves were paid $300 for every freed slave back in 1862 (close to $9,000 per slave today)—so every time someone complains about paying reparations, just think about that. The British and French were even worse—wrecking entire Caribbean economies with slaveholder debt.
LOL - THAT wasn't covered in history class. What a crock of shit. Wish I had to wherewithal right now to look into this a bit - boggles my mind how this 'deal' was worked out. Didn't the north win, in part, on the immorality of owning slaves - only to pay slaveholders cash for that which was earned by the shedding of blood??
 

ondma

Platinum Member
Mar 18, 2018
2,720
1,280
136
LOL - THAT wasn't covered in history class. What a crock of shit. Wish I had to wherewithal right now to look into this a bit - boggles my mind how this 'deal' was worked out. Didn't the north win, in part, on the immorality of owning slaves - only to pay slaveholders cash for that which was earned by the shedding of blood??
As best as I can find from a quick google search, this a very limited payment before the slaves were freed nationwide. The 300.00 was paid to slave owners in the District of Columbia in 1862, before the Emancipation Proclamation or the Civil War. It wasnt a blanket payment to all slaveholders after the slaves were freed by the Civil War.
 
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UNCjigga

Lifer
Dec 12, 2000
24,813
9,020
136
LOL - THAT wasn't covered in history class. What a crock of shit. Wish I had to wherewithal right now to look into this a bit - boggles my mind how this 'deal' was worked out. Didn't the north win, in part, on the immorality of owning slaves - only to pay slaveholders cash for that which was earned by the shedding of blood??
Ok to clarify, this was in 1862 just prior to the Civil War and so didn’t apply to Southern States (but white southerners were the primary beneficiaries of indirect “reparations” during Reconstruction.) So this primarily applied to Union/loyal slaveholders in Virginia, Maryland and Delaware (not sure about Kentucky?)

Read more here: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,434
7,497
136
What societal wound needs healing that is greater then what happened to the black people, their homes and businesses in Tulsa? Are you aware these people were firebombed via airplanes with the tacit or direct approval of the city.
Greater?
Given that I directly referenced it, I am surprised you did not read a word that I wrote on the affirmative action topic. Otherwise you would know, that this is not a !@#$ measuring contest.

There is a prerequisite of being a better society with full safety nets, before people stop with the mentality of hatred and jealously over what others have. Or what they receive in due. Justified or not, makes no difference, reparations will heavily boost Nazi recruitment and drive people to arms. They will seek out 2A solutions to the "problem" of other people "taking" from them. In the rat race that is our society, where shiving everyone else to get ahead is the modus operandi, these things you seek are but fuel to the fire.

Pushing for some, before everyone is in a better place, is a good way to get burned.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,046
27,781
136
Welcome to America

Survivors of Tulsa? Fuck you.

Crystal Mason accidently votes when ineligible? 5 years in prison.

Meanwhile we are still dicking around about crimes committed by Trump. Yeah I know he is finally indicted for something but Obama doing the same thing? He would already be in an orange jumpsuit.
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,046
27,781
136
Appeal underway. Interesting how initially the judge let the case move forward before ultimately dismissing it. I bet she hoped the survivors would die off giving her an excuse without getting her hands dirty

Judge still hasn’t provided the plaintiffs a written decision. Lawyers will continue pushing through this countries racist roadblocks

DOJ needs to get involved.

 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
15,434
7,850
136
Appeal underway. Interesting how initially the judge let the case move forward before ultimately dismissing it. I bet she hoped the survivors would die off giving her an excuse without getting her hands dirty

Judge still hasn’t provided the plaintiffs a written decision. Lawyers will continue pushing through this countries racist roadblocks

DOJ needs to get involved.

I wonder what goes on behind closed doors with some judges. No new evidence comes to light or anything, and yet, a case's status changes. WTFBBQ?
 

HomerJS

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
36,046
27,781
136
In light of this thread how does the United States have ANY moral standing criticizing Hamas for terrorism when it will not reconcile its past terrorism and even today refuses to codify into law domestic terrorism?
 

Stokely

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2017
1,576
2,002
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Don't worry, once people like Desantis are through nobody will believe it actually happened. Or maybe those people learned "life skills" by being bombed by Americans on American soil.

Not like it was really talked about in history class as it was. I sure don't remember it.

I know, "just a movie", but it'll be like the woman in Interstellar describing the moon landings as brilliant propaganda. Just more woke people trying to get over instead of shutting up like Jesus would have wanted. Why can't people know their place, always making noise and trouble... (/s hopefully not needed)

If they don't deserve reparations, nobody does. That shit was vile beyond belief.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,434
7,497
136
In light of this thread how does the United States have ANY moral standing criticizing Hamas for terrorism...
What, because we are human you would declare that we cannot make judgements and choose sides?
There are no innocent groups of people. We all have a past. But there is peace, and there are those who break the peace.

I lay blame on the aggressors.
For context I consider their actions. Such as massacring everyone they come across.
Should those be my actions?
Should those be the actions of people I am subject to?

No. For them choosing escalation, for their acts of evil, "criticism" is the weakest word that should be used when speaking of Hamas and terrorism.