POLL: Civil War in the US?

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Gaard
[I wonder if the reason that Shad0hawk refuses to answer my simple question is the same reason he refuses to address your "There is no God" question? In Shad0hawk's defense though, he did respond with a "That's just another strawman so I'm not answering it" response to your question.

i actually adressed his question perhaps both of you should read my posts a bit more thouroughly, and as for my tardiness in doing so, i had to work today, you will just have to forgive me for having a life.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Gaard
Shad0hawk - how would you suggest the government take a neutral stance?

the only way possible, by taking no stance at all, if people want monuments or not in a courthouse, it should be decided and paid for on the local level.

You act like paying for the monument on a local level solves the problem. Did you not follow the Judge Moore case? If you did, you'd notice that Judge Moore and his followers paid for the monument with their own funds. They commissioned the monument and made all the decisions relating to moving it into the courthouse in the middle of the night. Did that prevent it's removal or really add any dimension to the case whatsoever? Nope. The issue is still the issue regardless of who pays and/or who decides.

I find it comical that you think making the decision and paying for it on a local level makes the problem "go away." If that's what you think, you obviously don't understand what you're talking about.

 

[dmcowen674]

11-15-2003 Judge still has ample support in Gainesville

The Rev. Jentezen Frank-lin, Free Chapel's senior pastor, said Moore's removal could fuel a "grass roots" reaction.

"People will rise and awaken to the problem," he said. "They'll take a stand, vote and appoint judges who will stand for their beliefs."

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: GrGr


You are distorting the word BELIEF. Do you believe (have faith) that I am being obtuse? Do you confess your belief that I am being obtuse through prayer? No of course not. Belief (faith) is not the same thing as belief (supposition).[

ROFL! dance! dance!!

Originally posted by: GrGr
You as a religious person needs to have faith and belief in your religion. I'm sure you are utterly convinced that God exists. An Atheist does not need to have faith and believe in his religion, simply because he has no religion and he cannot by defintion have a religion. He is convinced there is no God so there is no need for a faith based system of belief. The Atheist DISBELIEVES the existance of God

you do not beleive god is real you have faith god does not exist in your religious view a buddhist beleives there is no God it is part of his religion that is an atheistic religion.. is the word faith appropriate to a non religious atheist? let see what the dictionary says...merriamwebster.com

FAITH:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

can you prove there is no God? NO you cannot, but you are convinced there is no God anyway? YES. you beleive something you cannot prove! you have faith. you have the conviction there is no God just as you said here:

Originally posted by: GrGr
Atheists on the other hand have only their Conviction, and nothing else. Not "faith", nor "belief" nor "God".[/b]

now, what did the dictionary say again? GrGr, your etymological revisionism is failing you, occum's razor is ripping it to shreds.

Originally posted by: GrGr
You cannot say: He was certain, he believed (supposed) - as you tried to do with your example. But you can say: He was certain, he believed (faith).

ROFL!! hoisted on your own petard (again), you do not KNOW there is no God, but you beleive(suppose) there is not one. now read your following sentence where you hang yourself yet again, your refuting yourself with your own argument!

Originally posted by: GrGr
He was certain, he believed (supposed). I am utterly convinced there is no God, I believe so (I suppose so).
This sentence does not work, it is a logical fallacy. You cannot be both utterly convinced and not certain at the same time.

so how then can you be utterly convinced there is no God, but not know for certain? going by your logic atheism itself is a logical fallacy!

 

[NogginBoink]

I think we're probably three or four generations from civil war.

Have the rest of you noticed that the gap between the "have's" and the "have not's" in this country is widening? The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

I have a very real fear that when I hit retirement age and start withdrawing from my 401K and other savings to live a comfortable golden years, the mass of humanity that did no planning for their own well being will look around and see me leading a comfortable life, and demand what I have.

I very much think there's going to be a civil war in this country. I don't think it's going to happen any time soon, but I think that by the time I'm on my deathbed, it will be a very real possibility.

 

[PainTrain]

Originally posted by: Whitling
"It will happen sooner or later."

Hmmm. Maybe. After all, "later" is one hell of a long time. It will not, however, happen within the next 20 years. The question of whether there will be a civil war is a silly one. How will the victor enforce its values? You've got a population that pretty much can't tell you where Nebraska is. They're more worried about who's going to marry Joe Millionaire than separation of powers. I loved the entry about the government enforcing aetheism. Give me a break, why would the government care?

No, no revolution in the foreseeable future.

I know I'm getting to this one super late, but.... LOL!

 

[PainTrain]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: rjain
Dean/Cowen 2004!

and we'd win too, hands down. People want the Country back from the greedy hands of Corporate Thugs that have taken over the Government.

Now this is just hysterical!! Your boy dubbya is unparalelled in his pandering to those derned "Corporate Thugs" you speak of, and still you flock to him as a bird of a feather because he CALLS himself a Christian. If any of the "civil war" folks you speak of (buzzing around walmart like the flies they are) actually believe they behave and think as Christ implored that they do, they all deserve to burn in the fictitious hell they invented for themselves.

 

[GrGr]

dp

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: GrGr


You are distorting the word BELIEF. Do you believe (have faith) that I am being obtuse? Do you confess your belief that I am being obtuse through prayer? No of course not. Belief (faith) is not the same thing as belief (supposition).

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
ROFL! dance! dance!!

Not at all. You are applying the religious sense of words like belief and faith where they do not belong.

Originally posted by: GrGr
You as a religious person needs to have faith and belief in your religion. I'm sure you are utterly convinced that God exists. An Atheist does not need to have faith and believe in his religion, simply because he has no religion and he cannot by defintion have a religion. He is convinced there is no God so there is no need for a faith based system of belief. The Atheist DISBELIEVES the existance of God

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
you do not beleive god is real you have faith god does not exist in your religious view a buddhist beleives there is no God it is part of his religion that is an atheistic religion.. is the word faith appropriate to a non religious atheist? let see what the dictionary says...merriamwebster.com

FAITH:
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

can you prove there is no God? NO you cannot, but you are convinced there is no God anyway? YES. you beleive something you cannot prove! you have faith. you have the conviction there is no God just as you said here:

Originally posted by: GrGr
Atheists on the other hand have only their Conviction, and nothing else. Not "faith", nor "belief" nor "God".[/b]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
now, what did the dictionary say again? GrGr, your etymological revisionism is failing you, occum's razor is ripping it to shreds.

No this is where your logic fails you when you present the FALSE DILEMMA that you have to have FAITH either if you believe in God or not. This is not true: the third option is ABSENCE OF FAITH, for example, I don?t care about that religious mumbo-jumbo. In other words, it is an entirely legitimate option not to have FAITH. You, however, is claiming that Atheists have religious FAITH in their UNFAITH which is illogical since Atheists by definition reject FAITH in the religious sense. Atheist say that there is not a shred of evidence that God exists. That does not mean that they have faith in the absence of proof. There simply are no proof. Dot, end of story. That is not faith.

As you point out FAITH is among other things the the firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Atheists do not have faith that there is no God. Atheists reject the idea of God as an absurd human invention. That is very different from faith. The burden of proof regarding God is entirely in the hands of those that claim that God exists. If you say, there is a God in the sky, it is up to you to prove that there is a God in the sky. It is not for those that do not believe you to find proof that there is in fact not a God in the sky.

Look, for arguments sake, you can have FAITH in your BELIEF that there are little green men made of cheese living on the dark side of the moon, if you were CONVINCED such men exists. Even though I?ve never been to the moon I can safely say that I would not believe you if you said so without proof and simply pointed to the need for FAITH. However I would not have FAITH in my conviction that you are nuts, I would simply be CONVINCED you are nuts. See FAITH does not come into the picture. You can be CONVINCED of something without having FAITH. Just as you can be convinced about something without believing it or not.

For example: Jim was convinced his dog made the mess on the carpet. Now Jim does not have faith in the fact or believe his dog did it. He is certain the dog did it. Faith or belief are not part of his conviction.

Originally posted by: GrGr
You cannot say: He was certain, he believed (supposed) - as you tried to do with your example. But you can say: He was certain, he believed (faith).

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
ROFL!! hoisted on your own petard (again), you do not KNOW there is no God, but you beleive(suppose) there is not one. now read your following sentence where you hang yourself yet again, your refuting yourself with your own argument!

I am not talking about belief in God here. I am talking about the semantic meaning of the word belief and explaining why you are misusing it.

Originally posted by: GrGr
He was certain, he believed (supposed). I am utterly convinced there is no God, I believe so (I suppose so).
This sentence does not work, it is a logical fallacy. You cannot be both utterly convinced and not certain at the same time.

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
so how then can you be utterly convinced there is no God, but not know for certain? going by your logic atheism itself is a logical fallacy!

The fact that there are absolutely no evidence whatsoever that God exists makes uncertainty irrelevant for convinced Atheists. If you go by the facts there is no God, so no uncertainty there, end of story (see CONVICTION - a fixed certainty). Again you are trying to affix something (uncertainty) to Atheism that isn?t there. To Atheists God is just as much a human invention as Green Men made of Cheese living on the Moon, an Atheist would reject both ideas as absurd. Show them irrefutable evidence that God exists (or that the Green Cheesemen exist) and they will (or won?t) believe (also in the religious sense), until that they won?t. That is the point of Atheism.

Shad0whawk, is it possible not to have faith in a religion at all?


Edit: fixed quotes

 

[Gaard]

<<Edit: fixed quotes>>


I'd hate to see what they looked like before you fixed them.

 

[GrGr]

Well they weren't pretty I have no clue why the text got so narrow, oh well

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: GrGr
Not at all. You are applying the religious sense of words like belief and faith where they do not belong.

ROFL! despite all the evidence(the meaning of the word faith" and your contradictions you still going on with this? i just posted the definition of the word "faith" that directly refutes your eytomological revisionism, religion has nothing to do with it. you simply do not like that word and try anything you can to distance yourself from it. my logic has not failed, you have not been able to demonstrate any failure on my part, on the other hand, i have made obvious the contradictions and logical failings of yours, which you go right on ignoring and simply repeating yourself. our latest example in bold:

Originally posted by: GrGr
You, however, is claiming that Atheists have religious FAITH in their UNFAITH which is illogical since Atheists by definition reject FAITH in the religious sense. Atheist say that there is not a shred of evidence that God exists. That does not mean that they have faith in the absence of proof. There simply are no proof. Dot, end of story. That is not faith.

there are numerous things wrong with your logic here:

1. your claiming that atheists have "religious faith"i never have siad that. faith is not just religious in sense and use the definition shows that.
2. your making the definitive claim there is no evidence God exists, anytime you make a definitive claim in the positive or negative you also have the burden of proof.
3. unless you have been EVERYWHERE in the universe and know everything there is to know, you cannot know for a fact whether God exists or not.

Originally posted by: GrGrLook, for arguments sake, you can have FAITH in your BELIEF that there are little green men made of cheese living on the dark side of the moon, if you were CONVINCED such men exists. Even though I?ve never been to the moon I can safely say that I would not believe you if you said so without proof and simply pointed to the need for FAITH. However I would not have FAITH in my conviction that you are nuts, I would simply be CONVINCED you are nuts. See FAITH does not come into the picture. You can be CONVINCED of something without having FAITH. Just as you can be convinced about something without believing it or not.

again your mangling the word, the definition states that "something that is believed especially with strong conviction" so if you choose to believe or disbelive in little green men made of cheese living on the moon it would not matter because either belief would be based on conviction without proof.

Originally posted by: GrGrI am not talking about belief in God here. I am talking about the semantic meaning of the word belief and explaining why you are misusing it.

the same goes for me concerning the word faith...i am going to do a radical thing here, i am going to use the dictionary again to determine the meaning of a word...

BELIEF:
conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
synonyms FAITH, CREDENCE, CREDIT mean assent to the truth of something offered for acceptance. BELIEF may OR may not imply certitude in the believer. FAITH almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof

FAITH:
firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction

now lets look at what you said earlier:

Originally posted by: GrGrAtheists on the other hand have only their Conviction, and nothing else. Not "faith", nor "belief" nor "God".

this is what your not getting, having conviction(and "nothing else" especially PROOF) in something you cannot prove is in itself FAITH and/or BELIEF and in both cases the dictionary directly backs me up. i am not mis-using the word, but instead using both perfectly...they are synonyms for a reason. we both have viewed the evidence, but come to differing conclusions.

i see what your trying to say, it is a thing/no-thing argument. faith IN something such as God not being the same as DISbelief in God's existance...with an absolute positive not being the same as it's opposite an absolute negative. what your not taking into account is beleif-faith-conviction no matter how they are applied are all existential things in the positive bracket. they are ideas we have.

Originally posted by: GrGrShad0whawk, is it possible not to have faith in a religion at all?

i believe it could be, either way it is a matter of faith in each person's own perception.

time for another generals marathon, gnight!

 

[DealMonkey]

Shad0whack - no amount of semantic wrangling on your part will convince me that atheism is a religion or anything remotely close. The only person you're convincing seems to be yourself. Atheism is neither religion nor faith, but the freedom from them. Atheists wouldn't say, "I believe there is no God", rather they would say "I do not believe in God." See the difference? Do not believe...

 

[PainTrain]

No offense guys but this symentics argument is tedious, can we get back to the coming war of the NASCAR loving, walmart shopping, homophobic, homicidal, jesus loving hillbillies? Thanks!

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: PainTrain
No offense guys but this symentics argument is tedious, can we get back to the coming war of the NASCAR loving, walmart shopping, homophobic, homicidal, jesus loving hillbillies? Thanks!

Good point. How will these people start a civil war when they can't find their own state on a U.S. map?

 

[PainTrain]

GOD will show them the way to the liberals, although they might want to start at the libraries... er, I mean the wordy place where satan dwells.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Shad0whack - no amount of semantic wrangling on your part will convince me that atheism is a religion or anything remotely close. The only person you're convincing seems to be yourself. Atheism is neither religion nor faith, but the freedom from them. Atheists wouldn't say, "I believe there is no God", rather they would say "I do not believe in God." See the difference? Do not believe...

as i have said numerous..numerous times i am not saying atheism is a religion, you are either being difficult and are simply going to believe what you want to despite evidence to the contrary, or comprehending the english language beyond simple sentences is beyond your grasp.

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Shad0whack - no amount of semantic wrangling on your part will convince me that atheism is a religion or anything remotely close. The only person you're convincing seems to be yourself. Atheism is neither religion nor faith, but the freedom from them. Atheists wouldn't say, "I believe there is no God", rather they would say "I do not believe in God." See the difference? Do not believe...

as i have said numerous..numerous times i am not saying atheism is a religion, you are either being difficult and are simply going to believe what you want to despite evidence to the contrary, or comprehending the english language beyond simple sentences is beyond your grasp.

Sure Shadow, make an ad hom when you have nothing else... Why don't you just spell it out nice and clear, because so far your arguments aren't very persuasive. I maintain atheism is neither a religion or anything remotely close to a religion. So far, all you've got is that atheism is a "religious viewpoint." An opinion on religion, in other words. You know what they say about opinions, just like as****es, everyone's got 'em. Who cares? What does that even prove?

 

[Red Dawn]

A viewpoint on Religion is not the same as a Religious Viewpoint.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Sure Shadow, make an ad hom when you have nothing else... Why don't you just spell it out nice and clear, because so far your arguments aren't very persuasive. I maintain atheism is neither a religion or anything remotely close to a religion. So far, all you've got is that atheism is a "religious viewpoint." An opinion on religion, in other words. You know what they say about opinions, just like as****es, everyone's got 'em. Who cares? What does that even prove?

ROFL! what does it prove? it proves i am right. but nothing can be proven to people who ignore evidence contrary to thier opinion and refuse to change it, and make up straw men becuase they are impotent against logical presentations with the FACTS to back them up.

the simple fact you refuse to change your mind despite the proof to the contrary(outlined in my posts to you and GrGr) shows that your belief is what it is ..FAITH. even according to the revised definition many atheists try to use.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
A viewpoint on Religion is not the same as a Religious Viewpoint.

that sentence is self contradictory. a viewpoint on a particular subject is a viewpoint, period.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: Red Dawn
A viewpoint on Religion is not the same as a Religious Viewpoint.

that sentence is self contradictory. a viewpoint on a particular subject is a viewpoint, period.

No it isn't. A Religious Viewpoint is one that is based on ones religion where as a Viewpoint on Religion doesn't necessarily have to be based on ones religion. In fact I would say that a viewpoint on Religion that's not based on ones religious beliefs is the only objective viewpoint that there can be about religion though it usually isn't the case.

 

[Tom]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Shad0whack - no amount of semantic wrangling on your part will convince me that atheism is a religion or anything remotely close. The only person you're convincing seems to be yourself. Atheism is neither religion nor faith, but the freedom from them. Atheists wouldn't say, "I believe there is no God", rather they would say "I do not believe in God." See the difference? Do not believe...

What does God have to do with religion ?

 

[DealMonkey]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: DealMonkey

Sure Shadow, make an ad hom when you have nothing else... Why don't you just spell it out nice and clear, because so far your arguments aren't very persuasive. I maintain atheism is neither a religion or anything remotely close to a religion. So far, all you've got is that atheism is a "religious viewpoint." An opinion on religion, in other words. You know what they say about opinions, just like as****es, everyone's got 'em. Who cares? What does that even prove?

ROFL! what does it prove? it proves i am right. but nothing can be proven to people who ignore evidence contrary to thier opinion and refuse to change it, and make up straw men becuase they are impotent against logical presentations with the FACTS to back them up.

the simple fact you refuse to change your mind despite the proof to the contrary(outlined in my posts to you and GrGr) shows that your belief is what it is ..FAITH. even according to the revised definition many atheists try to use.

You can roll on the floor all you want, but I still don't buy your argument that atheists rely on faith. But hey, declare yourself "right" and continue believing your own twisted semantics. Why don't you ask a real atheist what they think rather than making up your own theory? I'm not a real atheist, but I'm sure there are plenty who will tell you what they do or do not believe in. Or whether faith has anything to do with it.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
You can roll on the floor all you want, but I still don't buy your argument that atheists rely on faith. But hey, declare yourself "right" and continue believing your own twisted semantics. Why don't you ask a real atheist what they think rather than making up your own theory? I'm not a real atheist, but I'm sure there are plenty who will tell you what they do or do not believe in. Or whether faith has anything to do with it.

of course you do not! all you have to do is ignore the dictionary and refer to the definitions as "twisted semantics" because you disagree with them. do let let the fact you cannot demonstrate this claim get in your way!

i guess in this argument about the meaning of words my being the only one to post the actual definitions from a dictionary does not mean anything, but wait! I am the one "making up my own theory" even though i am the only one presenting any evidence to support my claim. ROFL!

do you consider buddhists "real" atheists? does one have to be areligious to be a "real" atheist? should that definition be ignored too since it only mentions disbelief in diety and not religion?